Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

having a debate with some friends.

one swears up and down that firewarriors are much better then suits, and can do more, kill more etc.

i contend that the crisis teams (using enclave) as troops are more versatile and therefore better

- crisis teams have more weapon options
- can move shoot move
- are jump infantry *** (question on that: can jet pack infantry move 12" in movment phase or are they stuck at 6"? dumb question but ive never used them before and im getting conflicting answers from people)
- are +1T abd better armor then firewarriors

the downside of course is less wounds, but a more mobile unit with better weapons, and the ability to move after firing, seems to be a strong advantage and the clerly superior unit. thoughts?

The answer is they're two different units with different strengths and weaknesses. Fire warriors offer better volume of fire from a static objective (preferably behind an ADL), crisis suits offer JSJ heavy weapons that can move up and kill stuff then grab an objective in your opponent's half of the table. The fire warriors are also a lot more durable (in total, not per model) than the crisis suits, especially against STR 8+ weapons. So you probably want a mix of both units in your army. You take the same fire warriors you'd take in a normal Tau army, and then the crisis suits you'd normally take are scoring as an extra bonus.

and to answer your question, they move 6" in the movement phase, only jump packs have permission to move 12"

thanks nutty i thought as much, but wording had me wondering, and a friend plays them with a 12" move.

so then: based on the above wich unit would win?

a unit of crisis suits with dual burst cannons, and gun drones (3 suits, 6 bc, 6 drones)

vrs a unit of 12 firewarriors with carbines and 2 gun drones?

no other unit supports either.

i would contend the crisis suits would do better. if the FW had pulse rifle, its a bit more even i think.

201 pts for the Suits with the cannons.

That's 24+12 S5 shots, with Markerlight Support, that's a withering amount of fire.

If you're relying on suits for scoring, you need the drones, as there's not a lot of wounds for them to eat before potential death.

Suits and Warriors are two great tastes that taste great together.

--

If you're doing all suits, I'd recommend deepstriking in with some, so you can kill some anti-suit threats before they hop on. You can also alpha strike a bit with them than.

--

Edit: I've been thinking about running some double flamer dudes... 99pts (22+1+5+5) for a Farsight List.

Obviously as an enclaves player I'm on the side of Crisis. Throw the math out for a second; they're just so much more dynamic to play. What's more fun for you and your opponent; just rolling dice from a static position or deep striking in, blowing s%#* up, jumping around assaulting etc.?

 nutty_nutter wrote:
and to answer your question, they move 6" in the movement phase, only jump packs have permission to move 12"

Lots of people mix jump and jet up for some reason. Jump has 12" move, Jet has 6" move, and 2d6 assault move (from which comes JSJ).

 The Shrike wrote:
Obviously as an enclaves player I'm on the side of Crisis. Throw the math out for a second; they're just so much more dynamic to play. What's more fun for you and your opponent; just rolling dice from a static position or deep striking in, blowing s%#* up, jumping around assaulting etc.?

I'm moving even my poor fire warriors forward XD


But honestly? suits all the way man. they are just more FUN.
And unlike your poor warriors, they are self-sufficient. warriors need help with enemy armor/TEQ/MC while suits can be equipped to deal with it from the firstplace.

 BoomWolf wrote:
warriors need help with enemy armor/TEQ/MC while suits can be equipped to deal with it from the firstplace.

On the other hand those suits won't be able to deal with "regular" infantry as well, so they'll need help from your anti-infantry units (like fire warriors).

It really depends on personal play style. Personally I like flexibility. I like firewarriors, but find them limited at times. Crisis suits are what I'd prefer, just because you can optimize them for specific roles to fit in with the rest of your list.

That and it takes a lot less effort to figure out how to get them across the board to an objective or to get line breaker.

Firewarriors put out more rate of fire against other infantry per point than crisis suits. Crisis suits just have the option to pen armor for a slight cost increase.

I know crisis suits are multiwound, but i really dont treat them as they are. Almost everything that hits them is either high rate of fire or S8+ so it really doesnt matter. I rarely ever have them actually use their wounds, usually small arms get rid of my drone bubbles then the lascannons or other S8+ weapons paste the suits if i didnt jump far enough to hide from them.

That being said if i use crisis suit troops, which i do if i have farsight sup allies, they have missiles and hide in the back. They can pop things the firewarriors cant, hold an objective in the back, and the jsj lets them stay relatively safe from the before mentioned weaknesses. I give them two shield drones so 1 death = no leadership and the obvious 4+ invul from the front in case things go bad. Keeps the cost and footprint size down by quite a bit.

Usually i bring 40 firewarriors in a 1k-2k game (not joking). That big blob of firewarriors is more dangerous than people think, and only cost me ~400pts depending on shas'ui options or bonding knife options. The rate of fire you need to remove them is obsurred if you arent sporting a bunch of AP4 or better pi plates, and most things that have that ap want to hit bigger targets not infantry lol. Almost every weapon i know of with AP4 or better is either anti-tank or anti-elite (bigger but not quite insanely strong). Shooting troops with them when the elites/tanks still exist is a win in my books

fire warriors, when properly supported, are so anti-hoard they can be anti anything with the high volume of shots, i like to mount two or three with twelve strong, one has an etherial to help. fish of fury revisited. the objective an oppenent had thought was safe, and suddenly, 69/105+ shots are poring on to a unit.

dont get me wrong, ive seen a blovk of firewarriors supported by a fireblade, pathfinders, carbine warriors and ethereal do NASTY things to anything dumb enough to get close to 12" range.

i just believe that the suits are better tasked at taking down all kinds of threats, including enemy firewarriors.

sit back and snipe with 36" missile pods. the FW cant shoot back., bounce in at 24" and bake with plasma fire. jump away to get out of LOS and rapid fire return. do the same with burst/fusion.

the trick to dealing with firewarriors i find is to limit what they can shoot at. if you let them concentrate all their shots inc bonus, at one thing, yea that unit will probally be done. dont allow that, and the FW are now pretty much in trouble, as they are t3 with a 4+ save... and moving s not really a great idea with them, unless the whole block moves and has cover. (wich can be removed by supporting markerlight fire.) i am playing a challange game to settle this debate with my buddie on the 2nd. ill post the results.along with photos later

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
and to answer your question, they move 6" in the movement phase, only jump packs have permission to move 12"

Lots of people mix jump and jet up for some reason. Jump has 12" move, Jet has 6" move, and 2d6 assault move (from which comes JSJ).

This is not true. "Jet pack" has no movement type. All "jet" pack models have a second type such as jet pack infantry or Jet pack monstrous creature. These models may make a jet pack move of 6" because that's how far those types normally move.

Models that are jet pack Calvary like plague drones of nurgle have a 12" jet pack move because Calvary moves 12"

 DarthSpader wrote:
sit back and snipe with 36" missile pods. the FW cant shoot back., bounce in at 24" and bake with plasma fire. jump away to get out of LOS and rapid fire return. do the same with burst/fusion.

But why are you talking about this situation at all? Fire warriors aren't designed to counter long-range JSJ targets, they're objective babysitters. You have riptides and your own crisis suits to deal with enemy crisis suits.

the trick to dealing with firewarriors i find is to limit what they can shoot at.

Then you lose the objective game. The fire warriors camp and objective and force you to come take it away from them, while the scoring crisis suits cover the other objectives. If you don't give the fire warriors something to shoot at that means you aren't threatening the objectives in your opponent's deployment zone, and you have a major uphill battle to try to win the game elsewhere.

Kroot with snipers and a hound are the best.

Normally I'd say XV8 are better at a glance, but consider the following:

- Smaller footprint and squad size.
- Higher point cost per model.
- Lower volume of fire.
- Locks you in to Farsight Enclaves primary if you are depending on them as your main troop of choice.

I think having teams of 3 and/or lone XV8 to fill up the last few troop slots is cool and fun, but in practice I imagine a couple FW squads and a Kroot squad is better.

I'd go full suits for style and friendly play, standard troops for tournament play.

im no tau player, but i think stock up on 3-4 squads of fire warriors and put em behind a wall and shoot
then get some broadsides suits and use em as artillery
then a riptide, then some crisis suits to fly around and some marker lights mmmmmmmm...... love marker lights.
some pathfinders and stealth suits are always good


Automatically Appended Next Post:
that should be enough
then choose some stuff you want just coz you want it not coz you need it, after all its ur army

I never buy the adl for my tau. i rarely face an aggressive army with them, its usually people with equal or longer range guns. In that case if i stay on my side of the map, i will be outgunned. One or two turns moving up makes them way deadlier because of doubletap, even worse if i have an ethereal. I find im usually in the midfield or bumping their front lines more than camping my own deployment zone with firewarriors.

 Peregrine wrote:
You take the same fire warriors you'd take in a normal Tau army, and then the crisis suits you'd normally take are scoring as an extra bonus.

This is exactly what I would do. I find it difficult to believe I agree with an entire post made by Peregrine without any reservations...must be Christmas getting to me.

My enclaves army has 2 units of 3 Suits; 1 unit of dual Bursts with 6 gun drones(and a few anti assault flamers with a drone controller); the second is a unit of Fireknives with 6 gundrones, and 3 counterfire.

The remaining 4 are 2 sets of monats, 1 Dual Fusion with advanced Targeting, the other Dual Flamer with 2 drones and controller.

then a Macross Broadside and 2 skyfire Rail/plasma sides, Ovesa, and 2 Riptides(One of each main gun, the heavy Burst with an ECPA).

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
and to answer your question, they move 6" in the movement phase, only jump packs have permission to move 12"

Lots of people mix jump and jet up for some reason. Jump has 12" move, Jet has 6" move, and 2d6 assault move (from which comes JSJ).

This is not true. "Jet pack" has no movement type. All "jet" pack models have a second type such as jet pack infantry or Jet pack monstrous creature. These models may make a jet pack move of 6" because that's how far those types normally move.

Models that are jet pack Calvary like plague drones of nurgle have a 12" jet pack move because Calvary moves 12"

At the time I was talking about crisis suits, who are jet pack infantry. Sorry if you didn't understand, I'll word it better next time.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
My enclaves army has 2 units of 3 Suits; 1 unit of dual Bursts with 6 gun drones(and a few anti assault flamers with a drone controller); the second is a unit of Fireknives with 6 gundrones, and 3 counterfire.

The remaining 4 are 2 sets of monats, 1 Dual Fusion with advanced Targeting, the other Dual Flamer with 2 drones and controller.

then a Macross Broadside and 2 skyfire Rail/plasma sides, Ovesa, and 2 Riptides(One of each main gun, the heavy Burst with an ECPA).

This is illegal. You can't have O'Vesa AND a heavy burst tide with ECPA. It is a signature system and O'Vesa has one.

Now that that's out of the way, I'll weigh in again with more this time than, "Crisis are more fun."

I'll take Crisis every time because 40k is a game of movement; even more so in tournament environments where there are usually pre placed objectives that aren't going to be in your deployment zone. That's why you see most tournament Tau lists carry a majority of their troops as Kroot. Solo Crisis are infinitely better scoring than FW because they're so easy to hide. The FW argument is fundamentally flawed as a predominant scoring choice because you should not be depending on your scoring units to be doing substantial killing. Unless you have extremely resilient, bountiful troops like a SM Calgar tactical spam army or something, your troops should not be shouldering the kill load.

Tau have plenty of things that can kill enemy models. Your troops should be alive at the end to score. Crisis are easier to keep alive therefore, Crisis > Firewarriors.

Don't know what planet you live on, but crisis suits are pretty decent in pulling their weight in killpower as well

Drop down, fusion a tank, go into hiding.
JSJ behind a big rock that blocks LoS and lob missiles at people.
Go plasmacide on someone's ass.
It works.

 The Shrike wrote:
Unless you have extremely resilient, bountiful troops like a SM Calgar tactical spam army or something, your troops should not be shouldering the kill load.

This is why you don't rely on crisis suits to be your only troops. Crisis suits are efficient shooting units with limited durability unless you have a lot more LOS blocking terrain than the average army. JSJ is good for keeping them alive a little longer to get more shots, but not very good at protecting them long enough to score objectives.

Crisis are easier to keep alive therefore, Crisis > Firewarriors.

Actually it's the exact opposite. An individual crisis suit is tougher than an individual fire warrior, but a whole squad of fire warriors (or kroot) is more durable overall, especially against STR 8+ weapons (the kind that crisis suits tend to attract).

What top-tier Tau list includes massed firewarriors? I beg of you name one. Whereas O'Vesastar has 2 Kroot squads, 5 solo missile suits and the obligatory 3-suit team. Gonyo's list that won him the ESC was 6 large squads of kroot with triple riptide triple skyray. Again, no firewarriors in sight.

I'm not talking about your local RTT. I'm talking about the NOVA Open, NOVA Invitational and European Singles Championship: three of the largest events in the world.

There's my data, now drop yours.

The castle tau with ethreal lists usually have around 3 full squads of fire warriors in them.