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 Jancoran wrote:

Do you play in tournaments?

I do, though not any grand tournaments, just local ones. We have a pretty good spread of players and armies. I do have to note that while I participate, my lists are hardly every tournament level, if the mood strikes me I'm the guy that brings firestorm redoubts, roughriders, and electro priests. I cant remember ever playing a "serious" game or warhammer, even if my opponent is super competitive I've only been in it to enjoy a game and occasionally pull a win. I've just never understood the FW issue, but then it's really not one for me so I've never needed to.

*Also, I wasn't calling you out about the forgetting about the really bad FW units, it was reference to personal encounters I've had with diehard FW detractors. I should have been clearer on that, sorry

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody has gone on for ten pages about the Dreadclaw, you never backed up anything about your argument, you're just expending a whole lot of effort deflecting onto strawmen to beat on and saying "I already talked about it" without having actually done so and being unwilling to point out where you think done so.

What part of ITS NOT AN ARGUMENT dont you understand? Are you daft?

Well, except it is, when you make it one. When you say "X is broken", or that "balance is an issue" that's an argument.

When you then turn around and say "that's not my argument", yeah, people have an issue with that, because, well, you argued it.

You've deflected and misdirected quite a bit, going off on other tangents, but you're not any more willing to engage those arguments.

When the defeated lower themselves from actually Counter pointing to simply attacking, I agree.

I have responded to nearly every reasonable question and have explained every answer Ive given in as much detail as time allows.

Agreement isn't going to happen on forums, especially this one. That would be a way unreasonable goal. So it never was one. But it does serve this purpose: to illustrate the extreme passions on both sides of the issue which ultimately force a decision on a T.O.

If it were such a simple decision, we wouldn't be on page 19.

So as a T.O. I am going to side with the path that leads to the most potential involvement by players and the least barriers to their enjoyment of the events. I understand that no decision I make will be met with 100% agreement and frankly since I am paid nothing to be a T.O. and it does nothing but cost me money, I'm really okay with that.

My success is measured by the ever increasing growth of the hobby where it matters the most: where I live. If your FAR more expensive path leads you to the same thing, good. I've already seen the wreckage caused by the 6th Edition Pandoras box of Super Friends combinations and learned a valuable lesson: gaming communities are fragile. EBay can sell every army in an area overnight as happened in the case of our Fantasy community pretty much. There ARE other games, less expensive ones, people can convert to and many did just that. i play beside the War machine players all the time and many of them were Warhammer players at one time.

The original poster wished to know where we are coming from. Now he knows. If he cares great. IOf he doesnt he shouldnt have started the thread. So i assume he cares. But who knows. Maybe he's just venting.

ciao chaps. i think I'm done posting On this thread. but keep going if there's more to say.

And you haven't answered well how FW is a barrier to entry. Vague arguments about "it's complicated", or "it's too strong." (both well and truly debunked).

 Jancoran wrote:
When the defeated lower themselves from actually Counter pointing to simply attacking, I agree.

I have responded to nearly every reasonable question and have explained every answer Ive given in as much detail as time allows.

Agreement isn't going to happen on forums, especially this one. That would be a way unreasonable goal. So it never was one. But it does serve this purpose: to illustrate the extreme passions on both sides of the issue which ultimately force a decision on a T.O.

If it were such a simple decision, we wouldn't be on page 19.

So as a T.O. I am going to side with the path that leads to the most potential involvement by players and the least barriers to their enjoyment of the events. I understand that no decision I make will be met with 100% agreement and frankly since I am paid nothing to be a T.O. and it does nothing but cost me money, I'm really okay with that.

My success is measured by the ever increasing growth of the hobby where it matters the most: where I live. If your FAR more expensive path leads you to the same thing, good. I've already seen the wreckage caused by the 6th Edition Pandoras box of Super Friends combinations and learned a valuable lesson: gaming communities are fragile. EBay can sell every army in an area overnight as happened in the case of our Fantasy community pretty much. There ARE other games, less expensive ones, people can convert to and many did just that. i play beside the War machine players all the time and many of them were Warhammer players at one time.

The original poster wished to know where we are coming from. Now he knows. If he cares great. IOf he doesnt he shouldnt have started the thread. So i assume he cares. But who knows. Maybe he's just venting.

ciao chaps. i think I'm done posting On this thread. but keep going if there's more to say.

Again, this is a non-answer deflection.

Again, you talk about barriers to entry and cost. When people point out that Codex books and IA books overlap in cost, instead of IA books being 2-3x the cost, and cost not being a factor as such anymore, you are silent.

When people point out that different models, rules, and armies have always had wildly varying costs, you are silent.

When people point out that you allow DLC-style dataslates and campaign books and other such things that are *no* different from FW in being "additional costs", you are silent.

When people challenge you on where you get this idea of a "core game" (being codex+brb) and what basis it has in the rules, you are silent. When people challenge that things like campaign books and DLC dataslates also do not seem to fall into your self defined "core game" paradigm, but you do not ban them, you are silent.

You're applying a double standard in just about every case and running with it, simply referring to a vague "barrier to entry", and deflecting away from any meaningful discussion.

It would appear you've had nothing more to say for quite some time.

Nothing FW throws out is any more broken than what's currently in 40k.
Yes, some of the units are decent picks, but they are not ground breaking.

You keep talking of the expense, its GW.
It's never been cheap and its closing in of FW's prices fast.
So, when GW overtake FW for price, what's left for the argument?

 Jancoran wrote:
I got a guy here whose like a dog with a bone going on about dreadclaws and power levels ten pages after I told him to use it as an example, not an argument and IM the troll?

IOW, "I posted some supposed evidence for my claim, but you're not allowed to disagree with my evidence". You could end this tangent by admitting that you were wrong, but we all know you won't.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody has gone on for ten pages about the Dreadclaw, you never backed up anything about your argument, you're just expending a whole lot of effort deflecting onto strawmen to beat on and saying "I already talked about it" without having actually done so and being unwilling to point out where you think done so.

What part of DREADCLAWS ARE NOT THE ARGUMENT dont you understand? Are you daft?

Yes, they partially are. You talked power levels, you said they were overpowered, didn't state why, and I want an answer.

Martel732 wrote:
For all the complaining, FW has never put out anything as broken as a scatterbike.

I don't know - those forge world ripetides - especially the one that flys with str 8 ap2 torrent flamers and like 3 other weapons is pretty nuts...Then there are Hornets...which are even more under-pointed than scatterbikes.

You mean the FW riptide that has to get close?
It's a nice suit, but its a 1 trick pony.
Once it's close its more than likely to be assaulted.

Nice for picking off stray units though.


What about cheap solid troop choices with S-D guns?
Markerlights?
Invisibility spam?
Serpent spam?
Wraithwing?
Summoning?

Just a few things both new and old GW have thrown out that caused a stir and were/are deadly when used right.

Yet FW is over powered?

Eh, they aren't much more than regular riptides. And it's only a 6" torrent, not a 12", so it's not that bad. I mean it's still pretty good, but relatively balanced (as much as a riptide can be).

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For all the complaining, FW has never put out anything as broken as a scatterbike.

I don't know - those forge world ripetides - especially the one that flys with str 8 ap2 torrent flamers and like 3 other weapons is pretty nuts

The Y'vahra? It's jet-pack MC not FMC, (EDIT: forgot it does have the weird flight mode, my bad, but it doesn't get full FMC bonuses and cant' be used two turns in a row.) it's flamers are S6 not S8 and the torrent is 6" instead of 12", it has another gun that is S8 but it's also limited to a 12" range. It's got one less wound than a normal Riptide does and costs 50pts more. The big thing is the Haywire burst, however it's rules are also still experimental.

...Then there are Hornets...which are even more under-pointed than scatterbikes.

The only time people look twice at them is when equipped with Pulse Lasers, nobody seems to think an 90pt AV11 2 HP skimmer with two scatterlasers or bright lances is particularly scary. The Pulse Laser option should be more expensive, but hardly more broken than entire units of scatterlaser bikers.

 Jackal wrote:
You mean the FW riptide that has to get close?
It's a nice suit, but its a 1 trick pony.
Once it's close its more than likely to be assaulted.

Nice for picking off stray units though.


What about cheap solid troop choices with S-D guns?
Markerlights?
Invisibility spam?
Serpent spam?
Wraithwing?
Summoning?

Just a few things both new and old GW have thrown out that caused a stir and were/are deadly when used right.

Yet FW is over powered?

There are plenty of broken core options - not denying that. the flying riptide though...all the benifits of a flyer whilst be able to start on the table and it's still a freaking riptide on top of it and it can fly away like a swooping hawk? Gosh golly...

It's still a riptide though buddy.
It has a few tricks but relies on getting close to do damage.

While it can cause a ton of damage, its still a tau unit and does not want to be that close.

I was worried the first time I played one as I didn't know what to expect, but once it gets close to fire you can assault it anyway.
They are good, don't get me wrong, but a close range tau unit isn't amazing, more so since that close, it has no support.

 Xenomancers wrote:
all the benifits of a flyer whilst be able to start on the table

You don't get all the benefits of being a flyer. The "counts as a flyer" rule only applies for the movement phase, not the whole turn. So you get to move like a FMC but you don't get the defensive benefits.

And let's not forget that there are actual FMCs which get the benefits of being a flyer while starting on the table, so this complaint is kind of weak. It's essentially "it gets to work like a codex unit".

IMO, it's by far the most balanced riptide variant. Sure it's powerful, but it's also expensive (like how much a riptide+IA should actually cost), and relies on getting close, which opens it up to assault.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
all the benifits of a flyer whilst be able to start on the table

You don't get all the benefits of being a flyer. The "counts as a flyer" rule only applies for the movement phase, not the whole turn. So you get to move like a FMC but you don't get the defensive benefits.

And let's not forget that there are actual FMCs which get the benefits of being a flyer while starting on the table, so this complaint is kind of weak. It's essentially "it gets to work like a codex unit".

Well that's another problem with forge world units - people never have the rules for them and don't use them right...so I ether have to be a jerk and say no you can't use your super mech model or play against something insane that's probably not being used properly. Everytime I have played against it I've had to shoot at it on 6's and havn't been able to assault it. So being greyknights mostly player - you can see how that would be a problem right?

I can't blame them for not having the rules for it ether - they are probably 100 dollars and take 2 weeks to ship.

That's not an argument though is it?

That's actually on you for agreeing to play someone who doesn't own the rules for a model they're fielding. You wouldn't play someone who didn't own their codex, not having the appropriate PDF or IA book is no different.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
all the benifits of a flyer whilst be able to start on the table

You don't get all the benefits of being a flyer. The "counts as a flyer" rule only applies for the movement phase, not the whole turn. So you get to move like a FMC but you don't get the defensive benefits.

And let's not forget that there are actual FMCs which get the benefits of being a flyer while starting on the table, so this complaint is kind of weak. It's essentially "it gets to work like a codex unit".

Well that's another problem with forge world units - people never have the rules for them and don't use them right...so I ether have to be a jerk and say no you can't use your super mech model or play against something insane that's probably not being used properly. Everytime I have played against it I've had to shoot at it on 6's and havn't been able to assault it. So being greyknights mostly player - you can see how that would be a problem right?

I can't blame them for not having the rules for it ether - they are probably 100 dollars and take 2 weeks to ship.

It's not really any different than anything else. If people don't have their codex and you're not familiar with the rules, well, it's their fault for not bringing their rules, and refusing that game is entirely justified. Nobody is going to blame you for refusing to play against something someone didn't bring the rules for.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's not an argument though is it?

That's actually on you for agreeing to play someone who doesn't own the rules for a model they're fielding. You wouldn't play someone who didn't own their codex, not having the appropriate PDF or IA book is no different.

Well I've actually seen the rules for the hornet so...the source of those rules is about as valid as word of mouth IMO. Forge-world at least until codex formations started coming out has literally been like - oh - that is better than the codex version in every way and it costs less...yeah we should def allow these rules into our game that is already gaked.

Forgeworld is awesome. Everything they make should always be allowed. It adds diversity. None of the FW units are in any way shape or form more crazy or imbalanced than the stuff already included elsewhere.

I think this question's always been about money. If all of these units were free, like in a video game format they would be, they'd be allowed without hesitation. Everyone would be eager to try them out. People would realise that most of them are crap. But because they cost a lot of money, like everything else in this hobby, people are eager to ban them. It's easier to ban something that only the other guy can afford, than just let people have more options. Call it prejudice, jealousy, or whatever, but money has always been the root cause of Forgeworld being banned.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's not an argument though is it?

That's actually on you for agreeing to play someone who doesn't own the rules for a model they're fielding. You wouldn't play someone who didn't own their codex, not having the appropriate PDF or IA book is no different.

Well I've actually seen the rules for the hornet so...the source of those rules is about as valid as word of mouth IMO. Forge-world at least until codex formations started coming out has literally been like - oh - that is better than the codex version in every way and it costs less...yeah we should def allow these rules into our game that is already gaked.

Except it isn't. There's one or two you could perhaps level that criticism at, but you're overgeneralising to reinforce a weak point.

Either way, not having the rules to hand is clinically dumb when the exact wording can sometimes be very important, but if you're happy to play that way, don't complain when you get dicked over by a badly misplayed unit, and certainly don't blame FW for it n

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's not an argument though is it?

That's actually on you for agreeing to play someone who doesn't own the rules for a model they're fielding. You wouldn't play someone who didn't own their codex, not having the appropriate PDF or IA book is no different.

Well I've actually seen the rules for the hornet so...the source of those rules is about as valid as word of mouth IMO. Forge-world at least until codex formations started coming out has literally been like - oh - that is better than the codex version in every way and it costs less...yeah we should def allow these rules into our game that is already gaked.

Only in a handful of instances, and in at least some of those, the problem wasn't with the FW unit being too good, it was with the codex unit being bad.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
all the benifits of a flyer whilst be able to start on the table

You don't get all the benefits of being a flyer. The "counts as a flyer" rule only applies for the movement phase, not the whole turn. So you get to move like a FMC but you don't get the defensive benefits.

And let's not forget that there are actual FMCs which get the benefits of being a flyer while starting on the table, so this complaint is kind of weak. It's essentially "it gets to work like a codex unit".

Well that's another problem with forge world units - people never have the rules for them and don't use them right...so I ether have to be a jerk and say no you can't use your super mech model or play against something insane that's probably not being used properly. Everytime I have played against it I've had to shoot at it on 6's and havn't been able to assault it. So being greyknights mostly player - you can see how that would be a problem right?

I can't blame them for not having the rules for it ether - they are probably 100 dollars and take 2 weeks to ship.

It's not really any different than anything else. If people don't have their codex and you're not familiar with the rules, well, it's their fault for not bringing their rules, and refusing that game is entirely justified. Nobody is going to blame you for refusing to play against something someone didn't bring the rules for.

They might have the rules if the rules were sold in stores...

They can get the model, they can get the rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
all the benifits of a flyer whilst be able to start on the table

You don't get all the benefits of being a flyer. The "counts as a flyer" rule only applies for the movement phase, not the whole turn. So you get to move like a FMC but you don't get the defensive benefits.

And let's not forget that there are actual FMCs which get the benefits of being a flyer while starting on the table, so this complaint is kind of weak. It's essentially "it gets to work like a codex unit".

Well that's another problem with forge world units - people never have the rules for them and don't use them right...so I ether have to be a jerk and say no you can't use your super mech model or play against something insane that's probably not being used properly. Everytime I have played against it I've had to shoot at it on 6's and havn't been able to assault it. So being greyknights mostly player - you can see how that would be a problem right?

I can't blame them for not having the rules for it ether - they are probably 100 dollars and take 2 weeks to ship.

It's rules are literally free online... Their only rules are on the FW website.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Tau_XV109_YVahra.pdf

And even if they were in the book, it's $84 for a high quality book, that is $34 more than a codex, for a lot more. Or can be "found" online for free.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They might have the rules if the rules were sold in stores...

It's 2015 and online shopping is part of life. The "it's not sold in stores" excuse is no longer valid. If you can order a book or a pizza online then you can order a FW book.

Also, as everyone else already pointed out, each player is responsible for bringing all of their rules regardless of whether those rules are in a codex, a FW book, a WD article, or wherever else GW feels like publishing rules. So "I don't know what the rules are" should never be an issue, if you don't know how something works you just read the rules that your opponent brought. If you're allowing your opponent to use a unit with only some vague memory of its rules and "trust me, it works this way" then you have only yourself to blame.

And the rules in quesiton are a free PDF on the FW website for feths sack.

IA books are still a GW publication and come under their guise.
Even have a nice 40k expansion tag on the front of them.

To be honest, if I am running anything FW I do bring the books for people to read, even though my local GW keeps all IA books available for people to read and use.

In recent tournaments the diversity is amazing.
Basic tournaments with banned FW consist of 70% Eldar and necron players now.
When FW is allowed I see a ton of different armies including 30k legions.

To me it makes it more fun as I'm not playing against the same thing time and time again.




The only gripe I have with FW is they won't update my bloody nids :(
My harridan costs a fair chunk and it really isn't all that great.
Amazing model though but a pain to transport, even with magnetised wings, stand, tail and talons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
all the benifits of a flyer whilst be able to start on the table

You don't get all the benefits of being a flyer. The "counts as a flyer" rule only applies for the movement phase, not the whole turn. So you get to move like a FMC but you don't get the defensive benefits.

And let's not forget that there are actual FMCs which get the benefits of being a flyer while starting on the table, so this complaint is kind of weak. It's essentially "it gets to work like a codex unit".

Well that's another problem with forge world units - people never have the rules for them and don't use them right...so I ether have to be a jerk and say no you can't use your super mech model or play against something insane that's probably not being used properly. Everytime I have played against it I've had to shoot at it on 6's and havn't been able to assault it. So being greyknights mostly player - you can see how that would be a problem right?

I can't blame them for not having the rules for it ether - they are probably 100 dollars and take 2 weeks to ship.

It's not really any different than anything else. If people don't have their codex and you're not familiar with the rules, well, it's their fault for not bringing their rules, and refusing that game is entirely justified. Nobody is going to blame you for refusing to play against something someone didn't bring the rules for.

They might have the rules if the rules were sold in stores...

The rules for the unit in question are available free online in PDF format from FW.

additionally, there's lots of things that GW doesn't sell in stores. You can't get the rules for Sisters of Battle in stores either. Nor for Be'lakor. Or Cypher. Or a number of other things.