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Lots of people. Look at the last three codices. Autocannons are arguably better tham lascannons now. I'm thinking about going to two stalkers and an autocannon russ because of meta shifts.

Oh I forgot IG has not won any major events yet silly me.

They don't have to win to knock out a lot of marine lists. They are admittedly stronger with no time limit which is how i face them.

Who cares? SM is deemed not competitive. You always repeat this every thread.

The ridiculous sensationalism spewed in this thread lately is too damn high.

Nobody seriously believes autocannon HWTs are a sufficient counter. Nobody would ever, ever run autocannon HWTs because they aren't worth it against literally everything else. That's just ridiculous I literally can't even

There are a large number of targets for which the autocannon, or anything similar is the optimal weapon now. The last three codices changes the landscape a LOT.

I’d rather take lascannons.

 Primark G wrote:
I’d rather take lascannons.

You won't once you gotta deal with Doomsday Arks.

Martel732 wrote:
There are a large number of targets for which the autocannon, or anything similar is the optimal weapon now. The last three codices changes the landscape a LOT.

The problem isn't the targets, it's a super ridiculously soft unit that will fold up and die to a sneeze. That's why mortars are superior, because contrary to popular opinion, this game is not played in a spreadsheet comparing damage output for a single turn.

But even if we wanted to, 3 squads of 3 HWTs with autocannons fires 18 shots, hits 9 times, causes 6 wounds, 3 of which are unsaved, killing 3 Primaris marines. All assuming the autocannons don't move and the Primaris aren't RG or in cover. Furthermore, they are exposed to return fire - all for exactly the same price as 9 Primaris Intercessors. They need to make it to turn 4 to start making back their points in Primaris kills. They will not make turn 2 with how easy they are to shut down.

Autocannons are decent against some targets. I do think there’s a case for bringing a few 2-ish damage, multiple shot guns. They are good for firing at things like necron vehicles and lighter stuff with invulnerables – so the various open-topped DE and harlequin skimmers and anything up to flyrants.

Fortunately, marines have access to plasma on hellblasters, which does this job pretty well. It’s not really optimal against stuff with invulnerables, but it still does a ton of damage to them. I’ve recently added a storm cannon-armed leviathan dread to my list to help out in this area.

I’ve still got a couple of las talons and twin lascannons on my repulsors as well, for an equivalent of 8 lascannons, but a mix of firepower is probably the best approach. I don’t think we’ll start seeing spammed autocannon HWTs any time soon, but they are probably the best weapon on things like autocannon sentinels.

Stalkers are probably reasonably good. I’d been thinking of taking one but haven't got round to it so far. They’d be a useful tool against elder and crons, and are also a pretty cheap way to fill out a spearhead or brigade.

I think we're getting hung up on hwts here. I just mentioned them because I've seen them recently. The IG has a lot of different ways to bring autocannons, and lots of armies have many ways to bring an equivalent weapon. If you look at the recent releases, these weapons are superior to lascannons for the most part against said releases.

Hellblasters are not good at this job because their range is poor in comparison and their 2 damage is conditional. I can spray and pray my stalker and Alaitoc and I don't even need a babysitter for it.

The disintegrator is basically the Drukhari autocannon and I've already seen lists with 12 of these things. Good luck with that.

I think 8 lascannons is total overkill at this point. Lascannons are ONLY necessary against IG in my view, as all the fieldable marine tanks are T7, and Xenos are rocking invulns for the most part now. I don't consider the repulsor or land raider a credible threat, and the repulsor dies readily enough to krak missiles/melta whatever.

Hellblasters have an effective range of 36" that’s pretty good IMO. Also if you’re not using LoS blocking terrain then shame on you.

 Primark G wrote:
Hellblasters have an effective range of 36" that’s pretty good IMO. Also if you’re not using LoS blocking terrain then shame on you.

Partially agree, but imo Space Marine units is only strong when they are in RF range, so in my eye, the effective range for Hellblasters are 21". Of course, if transported in a Repulsor, their effective range is 24" accounting the disembark distances, just make sure your enemy can't escape 24" away from the tank and you are awesome.

Well, GW just confirmed how Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with SIA.
Coupled with the fact that the new DW chapter tactics allows rerolls of wounds of 1 against a specific battle role, I would say that Primaris gained a lot in effectiveness.

Sad that the autoboltstorm gaunlet is left out of the SIA, shooting twice with Aggressors with hellfire would have been fun.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/01/may-1st-codex-deathwatch-preview-focused-adaptable-deadlygw-homepage-post-1/




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Pictures from the WC post.




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For reference to how Primaris are going to be affected by Deathwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CapRichard wrote:
Well, GW just confirmed how Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with SIA.
Coupled with the fact that the new DW chapter tactics allows rerolls of wounds of 1 against a specific battle role, I would say that Primaris gained a lot in effectiveness.

Sad that the autoboltstorm gaunlet is left out of the SIA, shooting twice with Aggressors with hellfire would have been fun.

I was also personally hoping for the Assault Bolters would get it as well, but it seems it only affects Intercessors and Reivers.

I'm not scared of max range hellblasters and my point about situational 2 damage was not addressed. It doesn't really matter if any particular poster agrees. Lots of players do agree and these kinds of weapons are becoming more common. Whicb hurts primaris. A lot.

I'm seriously considering swapping the DA half of my list for DW primaris. Stalker bolt pattern with SIA sounds really nice against all these invul save packing heavies I keep encountering.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not scared of max range hellblasters and my point about situational 2 damage was not addressed. It doesn't really matter if any particular poster agrees. Lots of players do agree and these kinds of weapons are becoming more common. Whicb hurts primaris. A lot.

Yeah, okay. Your point won't be addressed because the premise is false and you contradict yourself in the first sentence. Kind of difficult to argue against that - you've managed to gish gallup your way to a point, though, so that's something at least.

For sure I can't wait to get the codex now!

Disintegrators are certainly a problem. Autocannons much less so. A ravager firing at primris marines in the open kills 2.22 of them, and a stalker kills 1 - though it's better against inceptors.

Stalkers are a legitimately good pick vs dark eldar and necrons, for sure. I'd expect to see more of them, but it's not a huge worry.

Plasma isn't brilliant against dark eldar, but it's far from useless. Range is an issue, but fortunately the DE often want to come fairly close. You can still do really serious damage to them even at long range, because their planes are made out of nothing.

I nearly always overcharge plasma, except if there's a negative hit modifier in play. I sometimes use wisdom of the ancients to give me rerolls of 1, sometimes my captain, and sometimes if I really have to I just risk it.

DW Intercessors will have access to Kraken rounds - a sweet 36" range.

Mandragola wrote:
Disintegrators are certainly a problem. Autocannons much less so. A ravager firing at primris marines in the open kills 2.22 of them, and a stalker kills 1 - though it's better against inceptors.

Stalkers are a legitimately good pick vs dark eldar and necrons, for sure. I'd expect to see more of them, but it's not a huge worry.

Plasma isn't brilliant against dark eldar, but it's far from useless. Range is an issue, but fortunately the DE often want to come fairly close. You can still do really serious damage to them even at long range, because their planes are made out of nothing.

I nearly always overcharge plasma, except if there's a negative hit modifier in play. I sometimes use wisdom of the ancients to give me rerolls of 1, sometimes my captain, and sometimes if I really have to I just risk it.

Realize that Drukhari can hand out a -1 to hit willy nilly to all kinds of targets. Makes plasma very sad. Especially expensive marine plasma.

Also realize that autocannon damage doesn't fall off at all against gravis armor, which are the more expensive primaris models for the most part. If gravis gave +1 W, I'd agree with you a bit more on this point.

Drukhari planes have a -1 to be hit and a 5++ for starters, and can have a 6+ FNP and an additional -1 to be hit. Plasma is not a good choice against them.


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Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not scared of max range hellblasters and my point about situational 2 damage was not addressed. It doesn't really matter if any particular poster agrees. Lots of players do agree and these kinds of weapons are becoming more common. Whicb hurts primaris. A lot.

Yeah, okay. Your point won't be addressed because the premise is false and you contradict yourself in the first sentence. Kind of difficult to argue against that - you've managed to gish gallup your way to a point, though, so that's something at least.

It's false that plasma is only 2 damage conditionally? What contradiction?

Dark eldar have always been SM killers... sounds like just about everything is now. DE flyers are paper aeroplanes... Inceptors can take them down in one hail just through volume of shots and do not need to supercharge if running exterminators.

When have Drukhari ever been SM killers before?

"DE flyers are paper aeroplanes"

They're surprisingly hard to kill, actually. T6 5++ -1 to be hit with possible 6+ FNP and additional -1 to be hit is no joke. The best method is melee, really.

Dark Eldar have always been thought of as Sm killers... that is a serious troll question in my opinion. Bolt rifles shred pretty much all Dark Eldar vehicles. A stiff breeze will drop them likely enough.

"Dark Eldar have always been thought of as Sm killers... that is a serious troll question in my opinion."

How long have you played this game? I was playing when DE were brand new. They were NOT always thought of as marine killers. You're thinking regular Eldar.

" Bolt rifles shred pretty much all Dark Eldar vehicles."

Primaris marines can't afford to wound on 5+. Bolt rifles are one of the worst weapons for downing Raiders.

No Dark Eldar have always been thought of as SM killers since their release in third edition. Google it. Bolters are Great due to weight of fire... much easier than wasting tanking busting firepower going for a single shot.

I don't need to google it, i lived it.

Primaris don't have weight of fire because there are so few of them. That's precisely why i don't favor them currently.

This is true. You aren't going to take out many DE planes with bolt rifles. 5 intercessors rapid firing does about 1.5 wounds.

It might be worth it if there's a damaged tank just about to die, but really you want to kill the plane with something else and have the intercessors shoot the little skinny guys who fall out. They make a bit of a mess of DE warriors in a shoot out and/or assault.

I find gravis marines a bit of a disappointment. They are only a tiny bit tougher than normal marines really. Point for point, intercessors seriously out perform aggressors in melee against most enemy infantry. I quite like dakka inceptors, but the FAQ has made them a lot worse.

New post on WC regarding Primaris Kill Teams

Mixed Primaris Squads like the other kill teams, with buffs thrown out for everybody. Intercessors and Reivers get SIA, Reivers provide Terror Troops, and Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to hit on assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot (no penalty). Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.

Also a few suggestions on squad make-up. Kind of a fan of the use of Stalker Bolt Rifles now with an aggressor to remove that pesky movement issue.