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jcd386 wrote:
I think the no SS is just a stylistic choice. The army is much more oriented around being offensive than defensive.

For what it's worth, the Terminators had access to TH/SS in the Daemon Hunters codex. You'd basically never take them but the option existed at least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I think the no SS is just a stylistic choice. The army is much more oriented around being offensive than defensive.

For what it's worth, the Terminators had access to TH/SS in the Daemon Hunters codex. You'd basically never take them but the option existed at least.

Sure, but i see the 5th ed codex as a sort of retcon that the current GK are based on.

I have played several styles of Grey Knight list in 8th, they range from pretty lousy to comedically uncompetitive.

Ok here's some of my ideas plus some of the best ideas I've heard since codex release for improving the army.

I don't think points reductions are the way to go in most cases, GK sit at about the right point level in my opinion, instead they need some characterful cool rules to bring them up to the power level of other armies, bringing back some of the old rules they had in the past to give the army more flavour.

Terminators should be T5, this should apply to all terminator units not just GK, because terminators are pretty much junk across the board. 5+ to wound from standard small arms S4 and S10 needed to get down to 2+ to wound would make a huge difference. And actually make terminators a fair bit better. I've been saying this for 5 editions, T4 just isn't that durable. GK TDA wouldn't need much of points drop if any at T5 with some of the added stuff I'll mention below.

Give all units 2 cast and deny 1 at the very least, so they can cast utility powers depending on situation.

Add a second psychic tree available to all GK units and exempt from psychic focus.

This table would include 3 utility powers and would be auto included for all GK, as in no need to select these powers.

- Hammerhand (same as current power)
- Sanctuary (same as current power)
- Psybolt Ammunition (instead of current strat)

I thought about gate for this list, but a whole army gating each turn would be stupidly broken, these 3 powers i think represent the cornerstone of GKs psychic ability.

Bring back true grit, GK can fire storm bolters as if they were pistols in CC. This is more flavourful than a straight buff to number of attacks, combined with psybolt as a power it would provide some much needed killing power which GK sorely lack.

Bring back The Aegis , 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds (paladins some & characters could get a 5+).

Bring back the shrouding -1 to hit outside 18", could be a little op, if so make it an AOE psychic power which could replace one of the junk powers in the current table.

Then obviously fix the most glaring points cost discrepancies within the codex, especially with the special weapons, cc weapons. Overcosted characters could end up around the right points cost with the other changes to powers and rules.

Make psycannons and incinerators ignore invulnerable saves again, don't need to touch the points to do this, they're so junk in their current state this wouldn't be remotely broken.

I think this would make the army competitive without stepping on custodes toes by adding straight stat buffs.

I like much of that.

To me balancing Grey Knights is really about the psychic phase. It's what makes them unique and they suck in it, because their powers suck.

The other things you mention, such as psybolt ammo, and true grit, i really like. Also the FNP against mortal wounds is solid.

In a general sense GK would scale far better if they could use more powers, and those powers were good. I would be okay with more powers and some powers not having the rule of 1 restriction. But that's a fundamental design paradigm change that i don't think GW would implement.

I agree it would help if they 'fixed' marines first, and then used that as a basis for gk. But having said that, aside from being 'more eliter', their other 'thing' is everyone is a psyker. Maybe, *gasp*, give that side of the equation a bit more love. I was more aware of it with 1ksons since i used to play them, but why did babysmite need to come into existance? We're going to charge more for this squad because it can cast spells, but then it's not comparable to 'proper' pysker's versions.

Another 6 spells, proper smite (goes for 1ksons too), maybe even being able to ignore the core rules by being able to cast the same spell multiple times per turn. Make it go up in difficulty by 1 every time its successfully cast.

I also like Mike712's suggestions.

Really good suggestions, great way of bringing them in line with other dexes while holding a unique identity. I don't like the idea of -1 to shooting though, but GK probably deserve it, so go with the more conservative option there.

At this point I'm interested to see what gw does.

The reason why GK do not have Storm Shields except for Draigo is because Nemesis Force Swords were supposed to Parry, granting a +1 bonus to invul saves. Unfortunately, the Parry rule was dropped without correcting the missing wargear.

SJ

kombatwombat wrote:

akaean wrote:
The freedom in GK’s design space is in their special rules and psychic powers. I suggested the ignoring Invulnerable saves on Daemons as one special rule, and I’d suggest another: their Nemesis weapons do a flat 3 Damage rather than D3 against Daemons. I’d also suggest another step back, three steps forward approach: take Rites of Banishment away from Paladins and Characters, then change RoB to ‘may not use Smite.’

The tradeoff? Give GK a series of Minor Psychic Powers that are explicitly not affected by Psychic Focus, so multiple units can cast the same power. A quick attempt at these powers, remembering that most units can only cast one power a turn:

All GK:
- +2 Strength
- auto-advance 6” and can still Charge
- +1 to Invul Save or a 5++ if they don’t have one

I really like the idea, and I was thinking. To keep Grey Knights condensed (and a bit different from other Psyker Armies) make the following changes:

- Rites of Banishment is changed to forbid all non-LIBRARIAN GREY KNIGHTS from casting Smite. However in Matched Play, it makes all Sanctic Powers exempt from Psychic Focus.
- Grey Knights keep their six Sanctic Powers, the powers function the same as in-Codex the first time they are manifested/ attempted to manifest, but afterwards they provide a lesser effect (keeping the same core rules (distance, warp charge, targets, etc.) as the "empowered" version):

1. Purge Soul's secondary is 1 MW to a unit within 12", flat 3 MW to DAEMONS
2. Gate of Infinity's secondary is the target immediately moves, but cannot end closer than 9" away
3. Hammerhand's secondary is +1 Strength in melee
4. Sanctuary's secondary is the target is considered in cover
5. Astral Aim's secondary is they ignore cover.

(I had a tough time figuring a good, lesser version of VOD, so I did a bit of a cop out and made it just a baby Vortex)
6. Vortex of Doom's secondary is targets nearest enemy model within 12", that unit and any unit within 3" of the model suffers 1 MW

Goal was to keep the powers functionally the same, but not as strong as the 1st cast.
I am aware that these changes won't do much for Grey Knights as a whole, but I enjoyed the exercise and the idea to solve the: "Grey Knights need more powers" issue.

MAYBE bump up a few Grey Knight units to Know 2 powers to give some flexibility for the loss of "Smite"

This gives:
Eldar's have their flip mechanic, where they effectively get twice as many powers per slot.
Thousand Son's have 12 (18) powers to choose from
Grey Knights then get 6 powers, but exempt from the 1 per phase, but the second casts won't be "as" powerful.

I'd be more a fan of the individual squads knowing their own Power in addition to Smite, kinda like how it used to be. All Purgation Squads getting access to Astral Aim would be best even if nobody else got. It isn't like there are that many better targets for it anyway, so if you fixed them in the first place...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't like there are that many better targets for it anyway, so if you fixed them in the first place...

Personally a fan of Astral Aim on a Lascannon platform.

I wouldn't be opposed, considering that Interceptors / Strikes had Warp Quake, which was suggested earlier as an alternative for GK bubblewrap.

Though I'd rather Psycannons / Psilencers get reworked and have a purpose.

I don't like the idea of a side effect of power. Moreover the secondary effect of Gate is useless. you can directly put the models where you want. what movement add to gate?

Loafing wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It isn't like there are that many better targets for it anyway, so if you fixed them in the first place...

Personally a fan of Astral Aim on a Lascannon platform.

I wouldn't be opposed, considering that Interceptors / Strikes had Warp Quake, which was suggested earlier as an alternative for GK bubblewrap.

Though I'd rather Psycannons / Psilencers get reworked and have a purpose.

Warp Quake could be something like until your next turn, if a unit Deep Strikes within 12" each model suffers a Mortal Wound on a 6+ or something like that. Granted it doesn't scale terribly well but it's a starting point at minimum for me at least...

 Danarc wrote:
Moreover the secondary effect of Gate is useless. you can directly put the models where you want. what movement add to gate?

The secondary effect (extra move is what Gate of Infinity does if cast a second time, it doesn't "have" to affect a unit that used GOI's redeploy.

Example:
You could GOI Dragio across the board with the first cast, and then on the second cast have a NDK move 8" to go faster.

Or say once you Deep Strike your Terminators the second cast may allow them to move up to 10" (5" normal + 5" GOI) keeping them from being left in the dust.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Warp Quake could be something like until your next turn, if a unit Deep Strikes within 12" each model suffers a Mortal Wound on a 6+ or something like that. Granted it doesn't scale terribly well but it's a starting point at minimum for me at least...

I was a fan of the units that set up within 12" suffer D3 Mortal Wounds. Again doesn't scale well (strong vs small units)

Warp Quake: "enemy units cannot be set up within 12" of the caster's unit until the end of the next psychic phase."

That way, Plasma cannot deploy in rapid fire range and the squad cannot be charged from a deep striking unit. It creates a larger area denial area around the army. Being able to extend their reserves denial area at the cost of a psychic power helps them mitigate their big weakness of not having access to cheap chaff bodies (even scouts).

Also, as you can only cast each power once, you can't deny the whole table.

Which, as I understood it, was more a lawls thing than an actual tactic. But still worth ensuring doesn't happen again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would it impact Transports? It shouldn't, obviously.

How often does GW update their books? People told me that they make an update once per year, but in their chapter approved book, there are no real changes to Grey Knights. They also seem to have a FAQ/errata section on their site, but those don't have points or stat adjustments either.

Most of the time you only get a new codex each edition. Chapter Approved is supposed to rebalance points. It comes out once per year. The semi-annual FAQs are supposed to address rules issues (mostly). At least that's GW's stated plan.

GW has redone Codices within an edition at least once when they redid the Chaos Space Marine Codex in 3rd and 3.5th. I believe they also redid the Eldar in the same manner. So it's not unheard of for them to redo a codex but it's not common.

Chapter Approved has a number of points changes, and some general rules changes. Nothing faction specific that I know of off hand, though. The big FAQ had some specific changes and some more points changes.

Realistically we probably aren't going to get major rewrites of GK rules until they get a new codex, but points can go down and perhaps a few rules changed.

Karol wrote:
How often does GW update their books? People told me that they make an update once per year, but in their chapter approved book, there are no real changes to Grey Knights. They also seem to have a FAQ/errata section on their site, but those don't have points or stat adjustments either.

GW updates Chapter Approved once a year and publishes FAQ twice a year.
Other books are not updated as books. There are some faqs or errata on the previously mentioned publications.
To update a codex GW would take two years or maybe five.

 Quickjager wrote:

There isn't anything to argue. Your specific points are ideas that go against 8th edition design philosophy. We don't "pay" for our melee weapons, except for the hammer, because GW realized having a squad be 127 points of book-keeping was annoying. Furthermore your idea is to RAISE the cost of the melee weapons while at the same time nerfing them across the board. Did you not know GK have the melee weapons cost already built into them? It looks that way judging by the way you talk. You do talk with buffing the entire Marine lineup which I think is necessary, but doing it by just giving them the Primaris statline is not going to happen realistically. So no we don't have to ever really worry about the idea of stat overinflation. There are plenty of other possible fixes that don't involve just tossing more attacks or wounds into a profile which as I see that you do realize would lead to much more extreme outcomes.

Then we go into your argument that they are limited to be Marines just with better equipment and I look at Khorne Berserkers, Death Company, Vanguard Vets, Command Squads (whatever they are called now), Sternguard, Wulfen, Most of the Space Wolf line in fact, Black Knights, Deathwing, Deathwatch, and I laugh at you saying they are stuck with it. Ignoring the fluff that GK do nothing but train for decades in trials supposedly not even an average "ordinary" marine can pass. That is why I can't take you seriously, you take your own standard for what a marine is and apply it to just one faction when there is so much room for different doctrines to show different kinds of training or experiences.

I know GK don’t pay for their weapons, but as a GK player you should be saying that it’s stupid to have it rolled into the model’s cost since it means you’re paying for a Nemesis weapon on a Power Armoured GK with a heavy weapon. Even leaving that aside, it’s not hard to make Swords 0 and Halberds 1pt. It’s also not as dramatic as ‘nerfs across the board’. It was exactly 2 small stat changes to make the three weapons equal to one another without needlessly powering up every weapon.

Beyond that... I don’t think there’s much more to be made from debating this further. We clearly have different ideas about what a Grey Knight should be. You’re a GK player who seems to think they should be super elite best-of-the-best-of-the-best who each has as much experience and skill than a grizzled veteran with centuries of experience, while I think they should have the same statline as an equivalent Marine but with psychic powers, a Stormbolter sidearm, Nemesis weapon and special rules to reflect their particular abilities. I don’t think we’re going to reconcile those two views so I think we can end it there.

I think we’re on the same page about the fixes needing to start from the Marine statline and tweaking GK from there, but I’m going to keep pounding the ‘make everybody Primaris’ drum in the hope that one day GW listens. I think the GK are locked to the Marine statline though - good luck trying to justify GK getting Strength 5 when Marines have 4 or something.

Ultimately I’m happy to say ‘the Marine statline needs work, but until then, I support Mike712’s ideas.’

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Most of the time you only get a new codex each edition. Chapter Approved is supposed to rebalance points. It comes out once per year. The semi-annual FAQs are supposed to address rules issues (mostly). At least that's GW's stated plan.

GW has redone Codices within an edition at least once when they redid the Chaos Space Marine Codex in 3rd and 3.5th. I believe they also redid the Eldar in the same manner. So it's not unheard of for them to redo a codex but it's not common.

Ok, I probablly saw the pdf of a wrong book then. It didn't have any points drops for GK in it, only some stuff about Nemezisknights. What worries me though, is something pointed really well, points adjustments aren't going to help much. Because either they will undercosts everything and GK, become the new IG, or the points drops are going to be insignificant to matter.

I know GK don’t pay for their weapons, but as a GK player you should be saying that it’s stupid to have it rolled into the model’s cost since it means you’re paying for a Nemesis weapon on a Power Armoured GK with a heavy weapon.

I ain't sure, but IMO it doesn't really matter, as GK hvy weapons are so bad, you don't want to take them anyway. I really wouldn't want GW to give use separate force weapon costs on our units, and then say everything is fixed, and leave everything else unchanged.

I think we’re on the same page about the fixes needing to start from the Marine statline and tweaking GK from there, but I’m going to keep pounding the ‘make everybody Primaris’ drum in the hope that one day GW listens. I think the GK are locked to the Marine statline though - good luck trying to justify GK getting Strength 5 when Marines have 4 or something.

But for that GW would have to make primaris GK models. For me this would mean my whole army is no longer legal, because I own 0 primaris,

To update a codex GW would take two years or maybe five.

That is a long time to wait. I hope they will see that GK are doing bad at tournaments and will fix them durning summer.

kombatwombat wrote:

I know GK don’t pay for their weapons.’

I mean GW did include two price tags for Grey Knight special weapons (Power Armour and Terminator)

The only difference is Terminators keep their Nemesis weapons and the pricetag is unaffected by the Attack characteristic (otherwise Strikes, Terminators, and Paladins would have different pricetags for the Daemonhammer)

So it's safe to assume Nemesis Force Weapons cost 6 pts.
(All Terminator SWs cost 6 pts more)

This would make Strike Knight's model cost the same as a Tactical Marine (which is fitting as they have the exact same profile)

[Personally I find it annoying when GW bakes base gear's price into a model's base cost, just make all wargear have a price, easier to balance in the long term, imo]

 akaean wrote:
Warp Quake: "enemy units cannot be set up within 12" of the caster's unit until the end of the next psychic phase."

That way, Plasma cannot deploy in rapid fire range and the squad cannot be charged from a deep striking unit. It creates a larger area denial area around the army. Being able to extend their reserves denial area at the cost of a psychic power helps them mitigate their big weakness of not having access to cheap chaff bodies (even scouts).

I'd be okay with this overall.

 akaean wrote:
Warp Quake: "enemy units cannot be set up within 12" of the caster's unit until the end of the next psychic phase."

That way, Plasma cannot deploy in rapid fire range and the squad cannot be charged from a deep striking unit. It creates a larger area denial area around the army. Being able to extend their reserves denial area at the cost of a psychic power helps them mitigate their big weakness of not having access to cheap chaff bodies (even scouts).

You're attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Grey Knights don't have difficulty securing their own deployment zone because they ally in Imperial Guard. From a mono-GK standpoint, one tiny bubble won't really help, considering the deployment zone is very large and one GK unit can't possibly deny enough.

Additionally, after you drop in your terminators, it's not rapid fire plasma that's killing them. In a general sense, you don't see rapid fire overcharged plasma all that much in tournaments anymore. It's still there, but there's a whole host of attacks that just floor terminators. Every meta army has the tools needed to counter terminators, and Grey Knights, and these don't hinge on deep strike. Because of area denial being effectively free for Imperium (scout sentinels, ratlings, guardsmen) and for Chaos (Brimstones, Pox/Plague + Cultist combo) and for Eldar (Rangers), deep strike rapid fire plasma went the way of the dinosaur some time ago.

I would strongly recommend going to a tournament and running Grey Knights, or just going to tournaments in general for those that think minor changes like this actually would help. They wouldn't. The strong lists are using either high range with volume of shots or very fast units with decent range. The newer factions that rely on deep strike also wouldn't care about this change. Consider deathwatch, they're perfectly fine deep striking outside of 12", a kill team would still blast terminators off of the table with little difficulty. (Hint: Hellblasters will still rapid fire outside 12).

HOW is board control not a problem for the army? Allies are supposed to be a compliment not a crutch, so you saying to ally in guard says a lot about you.

Same could be said about Harlies or Knights or any "Support" army.

Should GK be a support army is an entirely different question.

Although, either way, they're still notably weaker than other codexes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOW is board control not a problem for the army? Allies are supposed to be a compliment not a crutch, so you saying to ally in guard says a lot about you.

Are we talking mono-GK or how GK are actually played? I am a tournament player.

Let's rewind.

Do you really think ONE UNIT having a 12" deny deep strike window, up from 9", will help in any way at all, for MONO-GK in regards to board control? They're already non-existent in this arena, by definition of being an elite army.

Further, are you capable of having a real discussion? My post is actually pretty well thought out and supports claims with real examples. Do the same. You think it's a good idea. SHOW ME WHY. I don't accept the fact that an idea is good based solely on the fact that it is endorsed by your user name. Can we have a civil discussion PLEASE?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Same could be said about Harlies or Knights or any "Support" army.

Should GK be a support army is an entirely different question.

Although, either way, they're still notably weaker than other codexes.

The concept of an "army" being dictated by a single faction is not even applicable in the context of 8th edition. If we're discussing the viability of mono-GK, we need to back up, because they need MASSIVE buffs in that case. I don't see how you can give them the flexibility to function as a standalone army, while also keeping them overall balanced.

But hey, prove me wrong, show me a balanced elite army - Grey Knights, in this case -that has none of the problems of an elite army, all the benefits, and isn't blatantly OP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOW is board control not a problem for the army? Allies are supposed to be a compliment not a crutch, so you saying to ally in guard says a lot about you.

Board control is not how elite armies win. Elite armies win by overpowering their opponent. Horde armies win via board control.

I'm very much of the belief that GKs don't have enough kit variety to be anything other than a support army. They're, what... 3? unique SKUs outside of special characters?