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 LunarSol wrote:
I'm very much of the belief that GKs don't have enough kit variety to be anything other than a support army. They're, what... 3? unique SKUs outside of special characters?

That's nice dear.

GK are a marine chapter - they have almost all the tools of a marine chapter. The tools they don't have are not because of lack of access - but because they don't need them to function. Harliquens do quite well with their limited units - it's because they have good rules and stats that matter like...-1 to hit 4++ saves and -1 to wound auras and double moves.These are the things that matter in this game.

 Quickjager wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I'm very much of the belief that GKs don't have enough kit variety to be anything other than a support army. They're, what... 3? unique SKUs outside of special characters?

That's nice dear.

I like Grey Knights a lot. They were the first or second model line that got me to consider starting 40k. That doesn't change the fact that there are very few unique models for the faction. To me, that's the sign of an army that isn't fleshed out well enough to stand on its own and probably needs to be part of a more varied package.

I played a few more games this week, and with each game I want to play less and less. I feel like I blew my summer money on a PC that was burned out.

Is there a way to salvage the GK models at least? Can I play them as Custodes or something else. No idea what Draigo or the dreadknight would suppose to be. He is too small to be a knight and too big to be a dreadnought.

Don't grey knights have a ton of models? both metal and plastic terminators models, and strikes. Plastic interceptors, all the tanks, dreadnoughts, they can take the stormraven and the land raider etc.
more units then what deathwatch has.

 LunarSol wrote:
To me, that's the sign of an army that isn't fleshed out well enough to stand on its own and probably needs to be part of a more varied package.

They'd make an interesting triumvirate with the custodes and sisters of silence, especially if they went back towards their old shadowy psykerness.

Karol wrote:
I played a few more games this week, and with each game I want to play less and less. I feel like I blew my summer money on a PC that was burned out.

Is there a way to salvage the GK models at least? Can I play them as Custodes or something else. No idea what Draigo or the dreadknight would suppose to be. He is too small to be a knight and too big to be a dreadnought.

Don't grey knights have a ton of models? both metal and plastic terminators models, and strikes. Plastic interceptors, all the tanks, dreadnoughts, they can take the stormraven and the land raider etc.
more units then what deathwatch has.

You could feasably use the GK models as something else. My marine army is all magnetized out of assorted bits from GK, SM, BA, SW, DA, etc painted my own color scheme. As long as the model looks like a Marine and the weapons make sense, you can play them as whatever else you want to. The tanks and whatnot are much easier as they are the same throughout all marine armies.

Karol wrote:
I played a few more games this week, and with each game I want to play less and less. I feel like I blew my summer money on a PC that was burned out.

Is there a way to salvage the GK models at least? Can I play them as Custodes or something else. No idea what Draigo or the dreadknight would suppose to be. He is too small to be a knight and too big to be a dreadnought.

Don't grey knights have a ton of models? both metal and plastic terminators models, and strikes. Plastic interceptors, all the tanks, dreadnoughts, they can take the stormraven and the land raider etc.
more units then what deathwatch has.

Deathwatch have access to all primaris, and their ammunition actually works. Plus, the ability to form kill teams and deep strike 30" range hellblasters is solid. Also, pairing them with Aggressors, and inceptors, has all sorts of cool interactions that we haven't seen since 7th edition. Further, they have access to an expanded set of Forgeworld models. Xiphons alone are great fantastic value for the points, something DW can take that GK can't. Also, kill teams can function more as a "bolt-on" force to an imperium army than GK can.

Honestly man your environment is not conducive to fun. If you have a car, or can get on a train, maybe travel to a different store that's more friendly to new players. The rules they have in place are at your local store are very punitive to GK... and the players don't seem content to tone down their lists to face someone with an extremely limited collection.

As far as playing GK counts-as something else - unfortunately most people won't appreciate this, because they are such unique looking models.

And let me give you some advice: If you're thinking about shelling out cash on a Dreadnought, or a Land Raider, or a Storm Raven: Don't. The dreadnoughts are mediocre on their best day, and Grey Knight dreadnoughts are even worse, since they cost extra for psychic. Land Raiders are a joke in 8th edition. Every time i see one I get super excited because that means something expensive is going inside and i usually pop them turn 1, also killing everything inside. Storm Ravens are decent but only in the context of Ultramarines at this point, because Tigurius can help them survive if you go second, although it's not guaranteed.

Strike squads could work as deathwatch vets with storm bolsters. A supreme command detachment with grey knight hqs isn’t awful either. It kind of depends on what you have.

Loafing wrote:

I mean GW did include two price tags for Grey Knight special weapons (Power Armour and Terminator)

The only difference is Terminators keep their Nemesis weapons and the pricetag is unaffected by the Attack characteristic (otherwise Strikes, Terminators, and Paladins would have different pricetags for the Daemonhammer)

So it's safe to assume Nemesis Force Weapons cost 6 pts.
(All Terminator SWs cost 6 pts more)

This would make Strike Knight's model cost the same as a Tactical Marine (which is fitting as they have the exact same profile)

[Personally I find it annoying when GW bakes base gear's price into a model's base cost, just make all wargear have a price, easier to balance in the long term, imo]

Huh. Well, that’s what I get for listening to somebody on this forum complaining about having to pay for Nemesis weapons on PA guys with heavy weapons, rather than fact-checking their complaint. Seems you can’t trust everything you hear on the internet. Also, the Pope is Catholic.

It kind of reinforces the point about GK’s problems being based in their being Marines though. A basic Power-Armoured GK relative to a Tactical Marine has the following changes:

- loses Chapter Tactics (so -1 to Hit outside 12”, ignores cover or a 6+++ or something)

- gains the ability to Deny the Witch with +1 - great for an elite army afraid of Smites
- gains a Stormbolter for 2pts - generally considered a solid weapon, particularly in numbers
- gains a Force Axe worth 8-9pts for only 6pts - a pretty good deal
- gains essentially a 2+ to deal a Mortal Wound per turn, with a ~3% chance at Perils

Sure, there’s other considerations like synergies with auras and Strragems but looking at just raw profiles that looks like a pretty good tradeoff IMO. And yet, even without considering synergies and Stratagems and the like, PA GK are still terrible. It says a lot about the basic Marine profile that you can give it all those changes and it still sucks.

A.T. wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
To me, that's the sign of an army that isn't fleshed out well enough to stand on its own and probably needs to be part of a more varied package.

They'd make an interesting triumvirate with the custodes and sisters of silence, especially if they went back towards their old shadowy psykerness.

I've said it before, but no GK player would complain if we went back to being Codex: Daemonhunters. And even after they renamed the codex in 5th, up until the final 7th edition codex we still had inquisition and assassins in our codex and they formed a decent chunk of a lot of players' armies.

 greyknight12 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
To me, that's the sign of an army that isn't fleshed out well enough to stand on its own and probably needs to be part of a more varied package.

They'd make an interesting triumvirate with the custodes and sisters of silence, especially if they went back towards their old shadowy psykerness.

I've said it before, but no GK player would complain if we went back to being Codex: Daemonhunters. And even after they renamed the codex in 5th, up until the final 7th edition codex we still had inquisition and assassins in our codex and they formed a decent chunk of a lot of players' armies.

That is another direction to take them, though in terms of consolidating minor factions GK/Talons and WitchHunters seem to mix better - the inquisition were the outsider/radical part of the Grey Knight army as opposed to the more integral role they had in WH.
Rolled back into the GK book there would be the risk of the inquisition becoming cheap bubblewrap and plasma caddies which waters down the ultra-elite theme somewhat.

A.T. wrote:
That is another direction to take them, though in terms of consolidating minor factions GK/Talons and WitchHunters seem to mix better - the inquisition were the outsider/radical part of the Grey Knight army as opposed to the more integral role they had in WH.
Rolled back into the GK book there would be the risk of the inquisition becoming cheap bubblewrap and plasma caddies which waters down the ultra-elite theme somewhat.

The Talons don’t fit there super well - the Custodes don’t fall under the authority of the Inquisiton (I think uniquely in all of the Imperium?). I can see the Sisters of Silence going in the Custodes book though - they should have from the start. I agree the Witch Hunters are a better fit for the Inquisition Freakshow.

Also, in terms of ‘watering down’, remember that GK would water down the ultra-elite theme of the Custodes.

A.T. wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
To me, that's the sign of an army that isn't fleshed out well enough to stand on its own and probably needs to be part of a more varied package.

They'd make an interesting triumvirate with the custodes and sisters of silence, especially if they went back towards their old shadowy psykerness.

I've said it before, but no GK player would complain if we went back to being Codex: Daemonhunters. And even after they renamed the codex in 5th, up until the final 7th edition codex we still had inquisition and assassins in our codex and they formed a decent chunk of a lot of players' armies.

That is another direction to take them, though in terms of consolidating minor factions GK/Talons and WitchHunters seem to mix better - the inquisition were the outsider/radical part of the Grey Knight army as opposed to the more integral role they had in WH.
Rolled back into the GK book there would be the risk of the inquisition becoming cheap bubblewrap and plasma caddies which waters down the ultra-elite theme somewhat.

I don't think it hurts to have the option for inquisitional acolyes back. One of the reasons the 5th book was so good is that you could grab a couple Chimeras full of cheap storm bolters acolyes in an otherwise expensive codex, making GK really the first marine army with both marine and guardsmen profiles working together. I for one have always thought that was pretty cool.

kombatwombat wrote:
It kind of reinforces the point about GK’s problems being based in their being Marines though. A basic Power-Armoured GK relative to a Tactical Marine has the following changes:

- loses Chapter Tactics (so -1 to Hit outside 12”, ignores cover or a 6+++ or something)

- gains the ability to Deny the Witch with +1 - great for an elite army afraid of Smites
- gains a Stormbolter for 2pts - generally considered a solid weapon, particularly in numbers
- gains a Force Axe worth 8-9pts for only 6pts - a pretty good deal
- gains essentially a 2+ to deal a Mortal Wound per turn, with a ~3% chance at Perils

Sure, there’s other considerations like synergies with auras and Strragems but looking at just raw profiles that looks like a pretty good tradeoff IMO. And yet, even without considering synergies and Stratagems and the like, PA GK are still terrible. It says a lot about the basic Marine profile that you can give it all those changes and it still sucks.

Just to nitpick

They do not lose their Chapter Tactic- The GK tactic is gain +1 to psychic tests
A Force Axe only cost 10 pts per CA Force weapons in general cost 8-10 pts per CA
It takes a 4+ to cast smite for 1 MW and then it can't cast anything else

jcd386 wrote:
One of the reasons the 5th book was so good is that you could grab a couple Chimeras full of cheap storm bolters acolyes in an otherwise expensive codex, making GK really the first marine army with both marine and guardsmen profiles working together. I for one have always thought that was pretty cool.

It was purely for in-game benefit though, rather than suiting the army.

With chaos marines/renegades the hordes made sense, as did the primarily stormtrooper-led DH with a handful of supporting GK. In 5e though they were just cheap expendable obsec to get around using GK for the job.

I do really wish proper Ordo Inquisitors were available to the appropriate militant arms of the Inquisition, but maybe that's a problem we'll see solved in the future.

I also think the detachment system ends up working out better than giving marines direct access to guard. You can still easily get the inexpensive troops you need, but it doesn't make it so players just take that and ignore the more expensive troop options.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Just to nitpick

They do not lose their Chapter Tactic- The GK tactic is gain +1 to psychic tests
A Force Axe only cost 10 pts per CA Force weapons in general cost 8-10 pts per CA
It takes a 4+ to cast smite for 1 MW and then it can't cast anything else

Ah, pedantry. My favourite.

To clarify:

- I probably should have rephrased it as ‘replace their -1 to Hit / 6+++ / whatever with the ability to Deny the Witch with a +1’
- I was saying that GK only pay 6 points for a Force Axe, which is an 8-10 point weapon, so they’re saving 2-4 points, which is a nice bonus
- a 4+ on 2D6 is effectively a 2+ on 1D6 (5/6 chance)

These are all great ideas and discussions!!! Love it. But I want to reiterate the first post. Make sure you Email your ideas to GW.

Let's get that change we all want and Make Grey Knights Great Again!

In reality you wouldn't pay for force weapons on 1 attack models.

The fact that the cost is baked into the GK is actually hurting them.

In honesty, people would equip them with free chainswords if they had the option, and thus lowering their cost from 21 (with storm bolter) down to like 15.

So touting the force weapon as a plus is really not fair.

Now, if PAGK had a base of 2 attacks you *might* have the argument that it's worth it, but even still, Harlequins are FLAT superior, consider their wargear and base 4 (FOUR) attacks for less points (on top of being more mobile and having a better invulnerable save). I'm not saying GK should be "on par" with Harlequins, they should be worse because GK are marines and Harlequins are Eldar, this is the way the world works, but GK are woefully lacking compared to other melee units.

GK struggle to get into melee and when they get there, they don't have the attack volume to do any meaningful damage.

There are a lot of problems here with this army. Some of it stems from the fact that assault marines are flat bad. Would assault marines see play if they had a base 3 attacks? I mean honestly, would they? Maybe. Only maybe.

 Marmatag wrote:
In honesty, people would equip them with free chainswords if they had the option

It has been suggested in this thread that the GK going back to the old daemonhunters system wouldn't be a bad thing on that front - rank and file with +strength weapons, veterans and elites with +strength and AP, and characters with the full force weapon.

The 5e GK book started them on the wrong path changing them from anti-daemon (good to hit, good to wound, poor against power armour, fine against invulns) to a more anti-marine profile.

Well correct me if i'm wrong but didn't they also have psybolt ammo as an upgrade back then? Because strength 5, AP-1 storm bolters, + chainswords, would be solid.

I don't remember the ammo on the storm bolters. If you could take it is wasn't really worth it in the pagks. But S6 heavy bolters on razorbacks and S8 autocannon dreads were good, and the psycannon was one of the better troop weapons in the game at that time so the strikes were pretty useful and purifiers were downright scary.

Why did GW take away all those options? Did they ever explain it?

Even last edition (pre decurion detachments) I was able to be very competitive. I would go to tournaments with my pure gk and be at top tables. I had things I struggled with but could usually have enough points or had done enough damage that I could win.

This edition pure gk I have to really play my A game to win casual games.

What made us unique then?

33pt terminators
The only army that could deep strike turn one.
A plethora of psychic powers to choose from and the psychic dice to throw at those powers
Incinerators were amazing (and a strong counter to an enemy deepstrike)
Terminators could move and fire heavy weapons ezpz
Force outright just killed things
Stormbolter was equally effective at 24" as 12".
Dreadknight shunt
Synergy between units and their guns.
That Nova power.

Pre codex 7.5 grey knights were the last time they were good.

33pt terminators

I think now I understand why the person who sold me the army had terminators at all. I could use some 33pts termintors right now.

Karol wrote:
Why did GW take away all those options? Did they ever explain it?

Mostly marines just didn't get anything except primaris and chapter tactics from the new edition, and lost a lot (deepstriking landspeeders, grav being good, rhinos being useful, marines being durable). It really seems like GW did as little as possible to marines during the conversion process, probably because they were the first codexes (they came out with like 5 or so marine books in a row?). Now that they are actually figuring out how the edition works, and being more creative with the Xenos books they had so much more time to write, as well as making core changes in the FAQs (good ones, i think) to balance the overall game, marines and GK by extension are suffering from the way their army design was focused much more on toning down the insanity of 7th than it was properly integrating them into 8th.

All that said I am sure it was hard to foresee this so i can't exactly be angry at them as long as they follow their plan with CA and the FAQs in the next year or so to fix these armies. I really think 40k is in the best place it's ever been overall, especially with the attitude that GW has seemed to have lately. I just wish i wasn't spending much of this edition with my collection being mostly mediocre (it's probably karma from playing SW in 5th, though, so who can say lol).

If i were you i would focus on the craft side of the hobby and learn what you can from your games (I promise the ONLY reason you are losing is not because you play GK).

jcd386 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Why did GW take away all those options? Did they ever explain it?

Mostly marines just didn't get anything except primaris and chapter tactics from the new edition, and lost a lot (deepstriking landspeeders, grav being good, rhinos being useful, marines being durable). It really seems like GW did as little as possible to marines during the conversion process, probably because they were the first codexes (they came out with like 5 or so marine books in a row?). Now that they are actually figuring out how the edition works, and being more creative with the Xenos books they had so much more time to write, as well as making core changes in the FAQs (good ones, i think) to balance the overall game, marines and GK by extension are suffering from the way their army design was focused much more on toning down the insanity of 7th than it was properly integrating them into 8th.

All that said I am sure it was hard to foresee this so i can't exactly be angry at them as long as they follow their plan with CA and the FAQs in the next year or so to fix these armies. I really think 40k is in the best place it's ever been overall, especially with the attitude that GW has seemed to have lately. I just wish i wasn't spending much of this edition with my collection being mostly mediocre (it's probably karma from playing SW in 5th, though, so who can say lol).

If i were you i would focus on the craft side of the hobby and learn what you can from your games (I promise the ONLY reason you are losing is not because you play GK).

fully agree with everything you just said. Great post

 Marmatag wrote:
In reality you wouldn't pay for force weapons on 1 attack models.

The fact that the cost is baked into the GK is actually hurting them.

In honesty, people would equip them with free chainswords if they had the option, and thus lowering their cost from 21 (with storm bolter) down to like 15.

So touting the force weapon as a plus is really not fair.

Now, if PAGK had a base of 2 attacks you *might* have the argument that it's worth it

GK struggle to get into melee and when they get there, they don't have the attack volume to do any meaningful damage.

There are a lot of problems here with this army. Some of it stems from the fact that assault marines are flat bad. Would assault marines see play if they had a base 3 attacks? I mean honestly, would they? Maybe. Only maybe.

That’s exactly my point though! You can give GK a 10pt weapon for 6pts and it’s still not good. The whole point is that none of these are GK-specific problems, they’re problems with the basic Marine profile which they share. Lack of durability, lack of mobility and low attack volume are all core Marine problems. Fix those, and suddenly a Force Axe on a PA GK doesn’t sound like such a bad idea, particularly when paired with a Stormbolter and Deny/psychic abilities.

I’ll say it again, the best solution in my view is to just make all Marines have the +1 Wound/Attack that Primaris have, and remove the Primaris keyword altogether so everybody can hop in any transport. 23pts for a 2-Wound 3+ model with 2 attacks with a Force Weapon, a Stormbolter, the ability to Deny with +1 and the equivalent of a 2+ to do a Mortal Wound per unit each turn sounds alright. Address their mobility - say by reducing the cost of Transports or something - and you’re well on your way to making GK strong even before you get to addressing their Psychic problems.

With or without that change, I’m also onboard for the idea of going back to the 4th Ed version of Nemesis weapon where basic guys get just a Strength bonus, Justicars/Terminators get the AP as well, and Characters(/Paladins?) get the full blown Force Weapon. It’d let you drop the price of most models in the army dramatically, which is something they sorely need. You’d also have almost-useable Terminators - say 35 points for a Storm Bolter and Power Weapon Terminator and a Psychic Power sounds solid on paper at least.

jcd386 wrote:
I don't remember the ammo on the storm bolters. If you could take it is wasn't really worth it in the pagks. But S6 heavy bolters on razorbacks and S8 autocannon dreads were good, and the psycannon was one of the better troop weapons in the game at that time so the strikes were pretty useful and purifiers were downright scary.

You did take the ammo if you had the points, especially on our terminators...it was 20 pts for the squad, so you'd give it to a squad of 10 and combat squad. And yeah the psyrifle dread was solid. I'm also annoyed that the psycannon didn't follow the autocannon or assault cannon's new profiles, cause it used to be better than both those guns (minus the shorter range vs the autocannon).

 greyknight12 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I don't remember the ammo on the storm bolters. If you could take it is wasn't really worth it in the pagks. But S6 heavy bolters on razorbacks and S8 autocannon dreads were good, and the psycannon was one of the better troop weapons in the game at that time so the strikes were pretty useful and purifiers were downright scary.

You did take the ammo if you had the points, especially on our terminators...it was 20 pts for the squad, so you'd give it to a squad of 10 and combat squad. And yeah the psyrifle dread was solid. I'm also annoyed that the psycannon didn't follow the autocannon or assault cannon's new profiles, cause it used to be better than both those guns (minus the shorter range vs the autocannon).

Yeah that's right. I mostly wrote lists with 5 man strikes, so i didn't get it on those. I do have 2 rifle dreads, 6 razorbacks, and 20 or so stormbolter acoyles that miss the good old days though lol.