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So I had an idea. There has been a great deal of discussion about the need for house rules, or for FAQs to clarify certain things. I thought that if communities were to stage tournaments where all rules were to be followed strictly AS WRITTEN, this might help to illuminate the depth and breadth of the corruption in the ruleset, if it is indeed in such a sorry state. (Existing FAQs will, of course, still count as RAW.) Would people be willing to engage in such an event, or is this just so much wasted time?

Just for starters I wouldn't expect to see anyone using Eldar wraith constructs, Tau battle suits or Artillery of any kind, since using strict RAW they're in all sorts of trouble for drawing LOS to anything... That's even ignoring the silly-RAW argument about models with helmets.

I can't see it going over well, though. The event would just degenerate into arguments over interpretations of RAW rather than actual gaming.

It wouldn't work. Not because of the rules but because the very concept would draw rules lawyers. RAW is not a simple thing. There is often more than one valid interpretation of RAW. Often one is move valid but there will always be someone who tries to use an obscure meaning of a word or twist the meaning. As insaniak shows, a rules lawyer will find a way to abuse things like the wording of the LOS rules. It is clear what the rule means by "from the models eyes" but someone could very quickly abuse that.

 Steve steveson wrote:
As insaniak shows, a rules lawyer will find a way to abuse things like the wording of the LOS rules. It is clear what the rule means by "from the models eyes" but someone could very quickly abuse that.

It's not even a matter of abusing the rules... the rules abuse themselves quite nicely. Where are the eyes on an Ork Kannon?

 insaniak wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
As insaniak shows, a rules lawyer will find a way to abuse things like the wording of the LOS rules. It is clear what the rule means by "from the models eyes" but someone could very quickly abuse that.

It's not even a matter of abusing the rules... the rules abuse themselves quite nicely. Where are the eyes on an Ork Kannon?

Anyone who thinks it isn't from the "eyes" of the guns' crew should have a national ban on all events. But I do see your point...

 Cortez667 wrote:
Anyone who thinks it isn't from the "eyes" of the guns' crew should have a national ban on all events. But I do see your point...

Uh, Artillery needs to have LOS from both the crew and the gun...

 insaniak wrote:
I can't see it going over well, though. The event would just degenerate into arguments over interpretations of RAW rather than actual gaming.

This. There are enough cases where RAW (like the "models in helmets can't shoot" one) is obviously broken and virtually everyone changes the rule to something more reasonable, or there isn't even clear agreement on what RAW is. Most people would just change the rules in their own games so that they can play an enjoyable game instead of spending a few hours recreating a 20 page YMDC thread without ever rolling a single die.

It would be amusing to play an 'as raw' tourney where everyone notes down every instance where raw fails, and where disputes occur. That would st least succeed in the spirit of what you're aimimg for

 insaniak wrote:
Just for starters I wouldn't expect to see anyone using Eldar wraith constructs, Tau battle suits or Artillery of any kind, since using strict RAW they're in all sorts of trouble for drawing LOS to anything... That's even ignoring the silly-RAW argument about models with helmets.

And the table would probably burst into flames as soon as someone tried to deep strike or stack psychic powers. I wouldn't want to go to a tourney like this because there's at least one person out there who thinks that the rules say you should physically crush enemy models with a drop pod that scatters onto them.

Deadnight wrote:
It would be amusing to play an 'as raw' tourney where everyone notes down every instance where raw fails, and where disputes occur. That would st least succeed in the spirit of what you're aimimg for

I think a quick browsing of the YMDC forum would do the same thing with less aggravation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I can't see it going over well, though. The event would just degenerate into arguments over interpretations of RAW rather than actual gaming.

This. There are enough cases where RAW (like the "models in helmets can't shoot" one) is obviously broken and virtually everyone changes the rule to something more reasonable, or there isn't even clear agreement on what RAW is. Most people would just change the rules in their own games so that they can play an enjoyable game instead of spending a few hours recreating a 20 page YMDC thread without ever rolling a single die.

I've been out of the loop for a while, could someone point out this Models in helmets can't shoot argument? Because it sounds like it would be a good read.

For this event to work, you'd need players who're agreeable and easy going. Unfortunately, players who are agreeable and easy going are all too ready to make the rules work as intended, and this would create undue bias in the RAW, as they abuse the wording of the rules to make them make the most sense. (something along the lines of, "The artillery pieces' eye is the sight down the barrell, and 'the dude can see out of his helmet because I painted the visors as eyes rather than visors.')

 insaniak wrote:

 Cortez667 wrote:
Anyone who thinks it isn't from the "eyes" of the guns' crew should have a national ban on all events. But I do see your point...

Uh, Artillery needs to have LOS from both the crew and the gun...

I stand corrected. Perhaps I should have a ban on all national events. :-)

What would be the point?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but why would I ever want to go to a tournament with the express purpose of "illuminate the depth and breadth of the corruption in the ruleset"? Not to ignore the rules problems, of course, but why would I wish to spend day(s) doing this?

 curran12 wrote:
What would be the point?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but why would I ever want to go to a tournament with the express purpose of "illuminate the depth and breadth of the corruption in the ruleset"? Not to ignore the rules problems, of course, but why would I wish to spend day(s) doing this?

Well, not everyone is of the opinion that house rules are necessary. And the fact that we still don't have cogent, relevant FAQs indicates that the community clearly doesn't feel strongly enough about the issue to do something. An event like this struck me as a humorous, silly way to bring awareness to the members of the community who lack it.

Not all events have to be hardcore, streamlined, ultra-competitive ones. If that's all you're into, then no, this probably wouldn't be for you. But since there seems to be a great deal of apathy about the supposed problems with the game, I was trying to come up with some idea to take a step towards a solution.

Clearly, the lack of approval indicates that this isn't the right one. Oh well.

You should have stated that up front. It seems like something that would be destined to fail.

A tournament is probably the wrong place for this sort of discovery expedition.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Not all events have to be hardcore, streamlined, ultra-competitive ones. If that's all you're into, then no, this probably wouldn't be for you.

The problem is that only the most hardcore competitive WAAC players are going to have any interest in this kind of game. Any "casual" players are are going to look at things like the "models wearing helmets can't shoot" RAW and decide to ignore RAW so they can have a better game.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You should have stated that up front.

I thought I made it pretty clear in the initial post.

It seems like something that would be destined to fail.

In light of this thread, it seems that you're correct.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Not all events have to be hardcore, streamlined, ultra-competitive ones. If that's all you're into, then no, this probably wouldn't be for you.

The problem is that only the most hardcore competitive WAAC players are going to have any interest in this kind of game. Any "casual" players are are going to look at things like the "models wearing helmets can't shoot" RAW and decide to ignore RAW so they can have a better game.

That seems like an accurate assessment, I suppose. Oh well. It was just an idea. No harm done.