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Safe to say I am guilty of this so much, and it ends up costing me games. Like in the last game, my opponant was going to charge my dreadknight with his bloodcrushers, I knew he wasn't going to last in combat and i'd already ruined many of his units. So I explained to him about the greatsword and at, so instead he charged my termies who were on an objective. Unfortuntely, he ended up contesting it and killed the only guy that was sat in his deployment zone and the game ended there. Basically me being too kind ended up costing me the game! However the way the current competition is worked out, we ended up drawing on victory points.

I know how competitive so many people can be, and its understandable that alot of people wont take this stance in games, but I find being nicer to an opponant makes the game a bit more enjoyable for everyone. Have any of you been guilty of this and costing you any games?

Guess it comes down to your choice. If you were in the mood to totally outright win, you can be perhaps less helpful/gentlemanly with things like that.
BUT, if helping out is something you like, and you still enjoy playing the game, even if some of your helpful pointers cost you the game, it was still fun in the end right?

Although I don't play competitively, I tend to be very lenient with rules in games. I'll let opponents move a unit they forgot/shoot with a unit they forgot to shoot, and always give the benefit of the doubt with cover or rules that are confusing ect. Usually I'll be the one to offer this, rather than being asked for it. If someone suddenly realises 'Oh damn, I forgot X', then I'll offer to let them 'pause the game' as it were, take the action, and resume where we left off.

I can't ever recall a time where this has really had an impact on the game, but what it does seem to have led to is that no one has ever tried to cheat against me, or pull something underhand. By letting people get away with little things (we're all human, after all) I've avoided anyone trying to outright break or abuse the rules. Maybe the two facts don't correlate, but I think it's likely they do. Similarly, I've never had issues with an opponent being being unsportsmanlike or rude. A good attitude towards your opponent goes a long way in my experience.

Whenever I'm playing someone who's new to the game, I'll also offer them 'hints' on what to do in game, my thinking being that everyone has to learn, and at the end of the day, I'd rather help someone learn than mercilessly crush them and put them off the game. Again, it's never really afftected the game, but it's just being nice.

This is probably why I wouldn't last 5 minutes in a tourney setting.

Yeah, I prefer gentlemanly games too. Its justa game! Win or loose, who cares? I entered a tournement a few weeks back, and came last! But the other players were gentlemen and I had a really good time, so its a win for me, even if it was a loss for my stupid marines! HURRAH!

I'd remind an opponent about a unit they'd forgot to act with, and similar things, but I would do things such as the OP did, were I playing competitively. Charging a Dreadknight in that instance was a tactical error, and I'm not going to go about educating my opponent about tactical errors in an competitive environment because, well, tactics are a big part of who wins, and should be. Forgetfulness is not, and shouldn't be.

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd remind an opponent about a unit they'd forgot to act with, and similar things, but I would do things such as the OP did, were I playing competitively. Charging a Dreadknight in that instance was a tactical error, and I'm not going to go about educating my opponent about tactical errors in an competitive environment because, well, tactics are a big part of who wins, and should be. Forgetfulness is not, and shouldn't be.

This is a exactly how I feel about this subject as well (Got tired of just posting "This" when I agree )

Definitely point out rules mistakes that benefit you or like The Shadow said little forgetful errors but not tactical miscues. Those can be discussed post-game.

In a competitive game I'm not going to help my opponent win. I'll tell them if they get a rule wrong, even if that error is in my favor, but I'm not going to give them strategy advice and point out their mistakes. I'm only going to do that if it's a teaching game with a newbie who needs the extra help.

In a tournament, no way. But, in my last game, I pointed out that I had a lashwhip guard with my Swarmlord and that he shouldn't charge me with a Daemon Prince. The game ended in a tie, but killing that thing would have certainly helped.

When I'm playing with friends in a casual setting - usually with drinks or smokes - we often give each other tips on how to counter X unit in our own armies because ultimately it's up to the dice gods and it means a better, faster game next time.

When I'm playing against someone who acts like a gakker and has more confidence than ability, well, it's time to pull his card.

edit - Of course, in order for me to actually crush an opponent I need my Necrons, they're my most practiced force.

The only time I'll help with tactics is if I'm so far ahead nothing they do will matter. I might recommend they charge my Termagants on an objective instead of my Carnifex who is doing nothing but look pretty, just so they can deny me some points and feel better - but by the time I recommend that I've got the game well in hand and I'm just trying to make sure they have some fun. Now that I think about it, however, I will remind a player that says "those bolters can't hurt your T9 Flyrant so I'm going to shoot that Carnifex over there" that any hit, not wound, causes a grounding test. That's cost me a game or two I'm sure.

I'll point out any rule problem as soon as I notice it - even if it hurts me.

I was playing a friendly game of wm recently where I consistently let the guy back up on things. The one time I activated my Stormwall and then forgot to shoot before declaring my next activation, the guy wouldn't let me resolve. It was my own fault granted but it was a real douche move after the half a dozen mistakes I'd kindly allowed him to rectify.

Due to that when he tried to leap one of my models without measuring it and moving it then realising there was a chance his base wouldn't clear mine I was having none of it and its what ultimately lost him the game.

Sportsmanship is a two way street for me. I am.more than willing to be as sportsmanlike as possible, but please show some respect.

never correct your enemy when they are making a mistake...

general rule of thumb i live and play by. now fun learn games its whatever and we talk about tactics and what to counter what with. Sit me down for a real game, ill help you with rules, but i will not help you with tactics. You choose to fire your awesome kill everything gun at my swarmlord who you saw rolled iron arm a few mins ago.. and you fail to insta kill him then ask to change targets because you didnt know he had eternal warrior. Well that my friends is what we call a failure to communicate... lol always ask questions like is this a squad, or whats this guy have. Any and all players have to say, just do it before you roll to hit, not post.

What you are describing, randomtoaster, is a refusal to do what I call 'soft cheating,' where you take advantage of someone's ignorance (usually of your army's rules, but sometimes of his own) by simply keeping your mouth shut and letting them foul up.

It's a commendable trait, and one I admire you for! It is something I strive to encourage in our local gaming group, and emphasize to new players. In friendly play, it is one of the things that will keep your opponents coming back more than any other.

That being said, it has no place in competitive play. Casual games are Care-a-lot, where we all eat sunshine and fart rainbows and glide around on scooters powered by hugs. Tournaments are Thunderdome. And if my tournament opponent wants to charge into combat with a unit that he doesn't realize he's going to get crushed by, then I'm more than happy to let him do it.

There are two ways to learn .
Being shown in friendly games as you go along, by some one with more experience.
level 1 helpful hints...
'Are you sure you really want to do that?'
'Have you forgot to do something?'

Level 2 friendly suggestions.
'Well if i was you , I would do this instead...'

And learning from mistakes you make in competitive play.
Where both players play the rules, using their OWN skill and knowledge.
Having a chat after the game talking about what you /your opponent did well or not so well is a great way of maintaining a social atmosphere, and re enforces the learning processes.

Playing games in competitions does NOT result in everyone turning in to a complete Asshat.
(I have been to lots of 'historical games competitions' , ALL were pleasant experiences, attended by well rounded and very pleasant people.)

However, these games had well defined rules and a suitable level of balance for competitive play, which helps quite a bit.

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd remind an opponent about a unit they'd forgot to act with, and similar things, but I would do things such as the OP did, were I playing competitively. Charging a Dreadknight in that instance was a tactical error, and I'm not going to go about educating my opponent about tactical errors in an competitive environment because, well, tactics are a big part of who wins, and should be. Forgetfulness is not, and shouldn't be.

Exactly!


I no longer play competitively at tournaments, but i used to play warmachine competitively at the national level.

I would remind things to people they seem to had forgotten. I would not correct out and out tactical blunders. Like you said - tactics are part of who wins - forgetfulness shouldn't be.

I tried being gentlemanly once but the top hat and cane kept getting in the way. Every time I leaned over the table to move my army my monocle would fall off.

Plus my opponent was quite the lowbrow fellow and lacked a proper manservant, forcing us to fetch our own drinks. It was a disaster.

 paulson games wrote:
I tried being gentlemanly once but the top hat and cane kept getting in the way. Every time I leaned over the table to move my army my monocle would fall off.

Plus my opponent was quite the lowbrow fellow and lacked a proper manservant, forcing us to fetch our own drinks. It was a disaster.

This made me laugh. Well played.

Hive Fleet Junior's 'nids were facing a Space Wolves army. The oppo podded his Rune Priests in near a pair of Tervigons and Flyrant. Junior informed him about Shadow In The Warp and the oppo changed his position out of range of SiTW, but close enough for the Two Priests to wipe out both Tervigons with Jaws Of The World.

the oppo then wiped out the flyrant with a flak gun - he then mentioned as he was playing 'nids he'd tailored his list with lots of anti-air, flamers and the two Rune Priests.

On the bright side, the Nids were wiped out by turn 3, so Junior got another game in that evening.

I told Jr that as the oppo was list-tailoring, maybe he was being too gentlemanly, and he should have unleashed SiTW on the oppo (who was, for what it's worth, around 10 years older, and also a very nice chap). He told me I'm wrong.

A lad in my gaming group always apologises for bringing some proper stinky Gorgonzola lists, so that's something...

Another lad will offer a draw when you have him on the ropes, which is quite amusing.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Hive Fleet Junior's 'nids were facing a Space Wolves army. The oppo podded his Rune Priests in near a pair of Tervigons and Flyrant. Junior informed him about Shadow In The Warp and the oppo changed his position out of range of SiTW, but close enough for the Two Priests to wipe out both Tervigons with Jaws Of The World.

the oppo then wiped out the flyrant with a flak gun - he then mentioned as he was playing 'nids he'd tailored his list with lots of anti-air, flamers and the two Rune Priests.

On the bright side, the Nids were wiped out by turn 3, so Junior got another game in that evening.

I told Jr that as the oppo was list-tailoring, maybe he was being too gentlemanly, and he should have unleashed SiTW on the oppo (who was, for what it's worth, around 10 years older, and also a very nice chap). He told me I'm wrong.

Your offspring is wise beyond his years or you're older than I think, but he's a testament to your upbringing skills, mate.

A friend of mine finally had time to read the BRB, after being 6 or 7 years into the hobby. He would constantly wait for the rest of us to tell him what to do, essentially turning every game into a "multiple brains" against one affair. Very tedious.

I generally try to let opponents know when they are forgetting something vital to the game.

So many wargames have such a ridiculous number of rules that it's hard to expect anyone to know them all, and that is only compounted with games (like 40k) that issue new units/codicies/expansions with their own mini-cannon of rules.

I'd much rather someone lose because I out-maneuvered and out fought them rather than lose because they forgot a rule. It's wargaming, not "Concentration" or a Bible Memorization contest. The only reason I haven't lost alot of games due to this is because I'm the guy who often forgets the rules and has to ask.

As for Gentlemanly conduct in general, I am a huge fan. grumpyness, bad losers/winners, outbursts, or meaness of any kind have no place at our club.

I think good manners in a situation like this starts with, "Would you mind if I made some suggestions?" Because, on the one hand, volunteering tactical advice during the game can come across as really quite offensive. And on the other hand, it can quite often be wrong because the player tempted to give the advice isn't considering everything the other player could be.

In other words, just because you think the move's dumb, doesn't mean it's wrong.

In most situations (barring correcting situations where rules are missed or misunderstood, which I'd do at the moment of relevance, regardless of benefit of lack of), I won't give suggestions to my opponent until after the relevant move has been made. Helping them get better at the game is always a good thing, and making sure they know the mistakes they made so they can learn about them is an important part of it. However, I shouldn't be playing the game for my opponent.

This applies from the most casual to the most competitive settings.

I find I agree with a lot of what's being said. I'll always inform opponents about rules and whatnot. In competitive play if I have told them something and they choose to make a bad tactical move anyways that's on them and I typically don't say anything.

Now with that being said if my opponent obviously doesn't totally know what's going on I will on occasion break my tactical advice rule. But I find it bites me in the butt more often than not if they felt I gave them "bad" advice. So I try to stay away from doing anything but simply informing them of my armies rules.

I will always offer benefit of the doubt on cover, allowing them to move or shoot a unit they forgot, or whatever else. I'm a person just like you and everyone forgets stuff occasionally.

Wait, people play 40K competetively?

Funniest thing I've read all day.

what you did there was actually being non competitive in a competitive game,

not a bad thing per se, I am guilty of it quite a lot when playing people who are new, but in a tourny setting.

when the other general makes "mistakes" I am not doing anyone any favors by correcting their mistakes, I am now playing the game for them a bit...

you wouldnt give the opposing football team advice on how to beat your own defence/offense now would you?

same thing in 40k, ill usually tell them AFTER the game what mistakes they made.

if its not a tourny, I always remind them of stuff, and give em hints if they are new, but I play lots of EXPerianced people, so I actually sometimes need them to make mistakes so I can captitalize on them/ compensate for a mistake I may have made.

If someone is clearly not fully familiar with my rules or units, and I see them clearly stepping in a beartrap due to ignorance of what is waiting for them, I will often verbalize a rule so they don't feel like I am hiding something. Not everyone knows every rule everywhere, and when someone is charging into something which will have 'ah haaaaaa! you have fallen into my yu-gi-oh trap card!'

One thing that does bug me, is when someone has something, like an ICF wargear I am not familiar with, and their list is purposely 'short' to not mention rules like Army builder, and I ask for what does that weapon do they are not very helpful. 40k is made to be played in full disclosure, so you should want to make it as easy as possible for your opponent to know your rules.

I am not going to give advice, but I am going to make sure they know how my rules work. I think that is only fair. Winning through trickery or making your rules hard to get via deceptive armylists or not sharing your codex, that is a problem.

nkelsch wrote:

I am not going to give advice, but I am going to make sure they know how my rules work. I think that is only fair. Winning through trickery or making your rules hard to get via deceptive armylists or not sharing your codex, that is a problem.

I very much agree. When I wargame I want to win because of my tactical acumen. If my opponent looses because of a mistake, I want it to be a mistake of tactics, not a mistake of forgetting a special rule that one of my units have. Put another way, when I win I hope my opponent will be able to truthfully say to me "well played sir" rather feeling like I just said "gotcha!".

That points toward my main beef with 40k and games of it's ilk. in addition to the (IMHO) over-emphasis on listbuilding, many times the advantage goes to those who memorized the rules better. That may please some folks, but I'd rather the success of my game be based around how well I play, not how well I have memorized a hundred pages of rules and my opponent's codex. The truth is, though that 40k has been this way for so long that most folks just accept that a big part of winning is finding new ways to exploit the rules.

Luckily there are rulesets out there that don't require so much memorization.

There is a difference between being a gentleman and helping your opponent win. There is nothing un-gentlemanly about winning a competition/match/fight because your opponent did not study your units or understand the tactics present. In fact, being a gentleman has nothing to do with your opponent at all; it is entirely how you carry yourself.

If you truly think that you need to notify every opponent when they're about to make a poor tactical decision, that's your call, but it has nothing to do with 'gentlemanly' behavior.