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Hey guys,
I'm about to cash in some gift cards and get a Dreamforge Leviathon (Crusader or Mortis) Titan and some weapon arms - which weapon arms are the most compatible/useful for 40k? ...I'm assuming I'd have to use the IA-2 rules for Imperial Titans to actually play this thing - but I'm looking for weapon/arm recommendations!

Thanks!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/566561.page

There aren't really any good analogues...

The Vulkan Cannon makes for a good megabolter. The HEL Cannon for a laser destroyer and the Nova Cannon for a plasma blastgun, as well.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The Vulkan Cannon makes for a good megabolter. The HEL Cannon for a laser destroyer and the Nova Cannon for a plasma blastgun, as well.

Yep. Then there's also the Beowulf and Grendel still available too if you like the looks of them. The Leviathan easily has the warhound weapons covered. These are the main ones you'd consider though:

What I see there is a Imperial Multimelta (kinda) a Tau Railgun (kinda) and some kind of oversized SM Assault Cannon.

None of those have the characteristic design features of the weapons they're intended to replace.

 Gunzhard wrote:
I'm assuming I'd have to use the IA-2 rules for Imperial Titans to actually play this thing

What rules you use is up to you and your opponents. The Leviathan doesn't look anything like any 40k unit, so none of the 40k rules are appropriate for it. It will be an obvious proxy model, like using a cardboard box with "Rhino" written on it, so it all depends on what your opponents are willing to let you do. I guess it's probably closest to a Warhound if you really want to use it as an Imperial unit, though an Eldar Revenant titan or Wraithknight is also about the same size and general shape. The Wraithknight would also have the advantage of representing the melee weapon options the Leviathan model can be armed with.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What I see there is a Imperial Multimelta (kinda) a Tau Railgun (kinda) and some kind of oversized SM Assault Cannon.

None of those have the characteristic design features of the weapons they're intended to replace.

This. None of those weapons match any 40k unit. The vulkan one is closest, but the other two just aren't even remotely similar to what you'd be proxying them as.

I find your lack of imagination disturbing.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I find your lack of imagination disturbing.

SJ

I find your disrespect for the fluff, models, and look of 40k disturbing.

Awesome looks like a fun project. While trying to keep it looking fluffy remember not to let it stifle your imagination and creativity.

Personally i think it looks really cool with the sword, so id shoulder mount one gun on the sword arm with a bit of work.

Because i got the reaver (simply put i hate the warhound model) i also think ill buy a couple of these as they look closer to the reaver model than the warhounds.

Gonna look awesome dude have fun.

Hah wow I wasn't expecting to find such controversy with this model. My gaming group already has two of these dreamforge leviathans that have yet to be used in a game, but at least I know mine would be accepted in that group.

I am at heart a purist and I hear you guys about the 'proxy' ugliness, and as much as I'd love to have a legit Warhound and be able to use it at events and such, it's sooo far from affordable; for most folks - it's just not an option.

Honestly I'd rather face a dreamforge leviathan in a great narrative battle than face the same legit 'special character' model across 10 similar spammy net-lists.

Thanks for the advice guys...

 Peregrine wrote:
This. None of those weapons match any 40k unit. The vulkan one is closest, but the other two just aren't even remotely similar to what you'd be proxying them as.

They don't need to, they need to be suitable counts-as, just as with any other conversion. Third party plasma guns and melta guns that are widely considered acceptable often look nothing like their counterparts, but they're acceptable because they're easily distinguishable and have the feel of a weapon that could do something similar.

40k is rife with opportunity for this stuff due to multiple patterns for weapons, rediscovered STC patterns, battlefield modifications and so on.

 Yonan wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
This. None of those weapons match any 40k unit. The vulkan one is closest, but the other two just aren't even remotely similar to what you'd be proxying them as.

They don't need to, they need to be suitable counts-as, just as with any other conversion. Third party plasma guns and melta guns that are widely considered acceptable often look nothing like their counterparts, but they're acceptable because they're easily distinguishable and have the feel of a weapon that could do something similar.

40k is rife with opportunity for this stuff due to multiple patterns for weapons, rediscovered STC patterns, battlefield modifications and so on.

Rediscovering a pattern/stc for an Imperial Titan is a little bit different than a combat knife or plasma gun. As for battlefield modification, I'm not sure if you can 'modify' a Warhound into that Dreamforge abomination.

 Yonan wrote:
Third party plasma guns and melta guns that are widely considered acceptable often look nothing like their counterparts, but they're acceptable because they're easily distinguishable and have the feel of a weapon that could do something similar.

Actually it's the exact opposite. The popular and most-accepted conversion bits are the ones that stay very carefully on the fine line of making something that is clearly a melta/plasma/whatever gun, including enough of the distinctive GW-style design elements to identify it, but not getting into legal trouble with GW by making an exact copy.

40k is rife with opportunity for this stuff due to multiple patterns for weapons, rediscovered STC patterns, battlefield modifications and so on.

But those guns (and the Leviathan in general) don't look anything like the guns they're supposed to be. They're no closer than any other large bipedal walker with two primary arm weapons, and certainly don't have any of the distinctive GW elements. The only reason anyone is arguing in favor of them is the low price of the kit. If the Leviathan cost $600 each then all of that speculation about "alternate STC patterns" would be forgotten entirely.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Third party plasma guns and melta guns that are widely considered acceptable often look nothing like their counterparts, but they're acceptable because they're easily distinguishable and have the feel of a weapon that could do something similar.

Actually it's the exact opposite. The popular and most-accepted conversion bits are the ones that stay very carefully on the fine line of making something that is clearly a melta/plasma/whatever gun, including enough of the distinctive GW-style design elements to identify it, but not getting into legal trouble with GW by making an exact copy.

40k is rife with opportunity for this stuff due to multiple patterns for weapons, rediscovered STC patterns, battlefield modifications and so on.

But those guns (and the Leviathan in general) don't look anything like the guns they're supposed to be. They're no closer than any other large bipedal walker with two primary arm weapons, and certainly don't have any of the distinctive GW elements. The only reason anyone is arguing in favor of them is the low price of the kit. If the Leviathan cost $600 each then all of that speculation about "alternate STC patterns" would be forgotten entirely.

Thats not true. I hate the war hound, i think its awe full. I wouldnt buy that kit even if it where 20 dollars. Nothing i like about the model. The leviathan looks like it can actually stand.

 Swastakowey wrote:
The leviathan looks like it can actually stand.

You realize that the actual Warhound model can stand up just fine, even without a base, right? In fact it looks a lot more dynamic, like a scout titan that has to keep moving at all times should look. The Leviathan, on the other hand, looks way too static, like a walking tank that slowly but inevitably advances into battle until it gets into melee range.

(And, if anything, a real Warhound would be more stable than the model since the heavy reactor and most of the armor is right over the legs and the "unbalanced" front section is the lightest part of the titan.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
The leviathan looks like it can actually stand.

You realize that the actual Warhound model can stand up just fine, even without a base, right? In fact it looks a lot more dynamic, like a scout titan that has to keep moving at all times should look. The Leviathan, on the other hand, looks way too static, like a walking tank that slowly but inevitably advances into battle until it gets into melee range.

(And, if anything, a real Warhound would be more stable than the model since the heavy reactor and most of the armor is right over the legs and the "unbalanced" front section is the lightest part of the titan.)

If anything that model is crap. Waste of space. Among the worst models forge world has made in my opinion.

I use this for my Leviathan;

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2008/09/play-aid-lords-of-battle-v20.html

And use the knight rules.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Third party plasma guns and melta guns that are widely considered acceptable often look nothing like their counterparts, but they're acceptable because they're easily distinguishable and have the feel of a weapon that could do something similar.

Actually it's the exact opposite.

Actually it's not. There are many widely accepted options, from those that closely match to those that don't.

I say this again, I think the Leviathan model is awesome and that it looks GREAT for, say, a Grey Knight titan using the Warhound rules, given how it has a similar (but better) style compared to the Dreadknight, with an enclosed 'helmet' rather than a babycarrier.

Assuming it is well painted, and reasonably armed (Vulkan + HEL = Vulkan + Turbolaser, for example) then it certainly is not immersion-breaking in the slightest to me. Less plausible for Guard due to the 'sleek' design, but I am not so petty as to turn it down. In apocalypse, things like this belong, especially of such high quality.

I find it depressing that people are stuck on a specific "look" of model that in reality has gone through several iterations over the decades before ending up with the "look" those people are stuck on.

Titans, and their weapons, have seem a number of variants in model and fluff, representing a huge verity of aesthetically different choices. There are the MkI "Beetle Back" Warlord Titans with cylinder-style Missile racks, hemispherical Plasma Cannons, and long barreled rotary cannons. Then there are the MkII Warlords with their long skinny legs, boxy shoulders and skull-like head mounted as a "belt buckle" with its double set of double turbo lasers that set the standard for future D-caddies back in old Epic 40k. The MkII was quickly replaced by the MkIII, which "looks" like a battleship with turbo lasers jutting out of any flat surface. Yet which pattern of Warlord is it that graces the art work found in BRB? Or the GK codex? Or any number of other works of 40k art? Its as if there are several different variants of the class of Titan referred to as "warlords", all with radically different aesthetics.

Look at the Reaver Titan. The current Forge World model is quite different from the old Epicast and Armorcast models that were based of the Epic 40k model. Yet, there are again a number of variants such as the Goth pattern, the Hun pattern, Mars pattern, Lucius pattern. Are you sure there are no other Reaver patterns in the 40k universe, when the "Reaver" is just a type of Light Battle Titan?

Warhounds are found in a number of variants, from the small "Hound" pattern to the larger Mars and Lucius patterns. Are you sure there are no other patterns of Scout Titans than the Warhound?

Of the Emperors, we have Imperators and Warmongers. Are there others?

The Leviathan does in fact look aesthetically like a 40k engine of war, as it does look almost exactly like a Knight class Titan. In fact, it looks exactly like a Mechanicus product supplied to their Agroworld allies, or something forged on the Forge Moon of Titan!

Personally, I think its a fantastic model, and only wish Warhounds could take melee weapons, because that would be awesome!

40k is a fantasy game in a sci-fi setting where anything goes. Us old grognards still remember that from back in the day. Its sad that the new generation of "club kiddies" don't get that distinction.

SJ

The GW Turbo Laser looks like two barrels. Thats it. The 'canon' look is about as generic as you can possibly get. This at least the H.E.L has some character and could reasonably fill in. Both of the mega bolter and the leviathan version are very generic, so neither wins that.

Now, the GW plasma blast gun does look more distinctive and i can see an argument against that. It has the distinctive plasma look and the coils are something than almost no system has emulated, making them distinctive to 40k.

My problem with the leviathan is that its both too small to be a Warhound and it really doesnt fit the Guard look of things. It looks like a marine. It has too many rounded surfaces, the face is GK-esk, and it looks too polished. If you cut grooves in the plates to give them a more segmented look, plated the torso, replaced the head, and added the reactor cooler on the back it would look much better.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What I see there is a Imperial Multimelta (kinda) a Tau Railgun (kinda) and some kind of oversized SM Assault Cannon.

None of those have the characteristic design features of the weapons they're intended to replace.

Thats because they aren't intended to replace anything. These 'minis' were painstakingly created by Mark Mondragon of Dreamforge Games for use with the Iron Core ruleset (still in development), not for 40k. The reason you are having so much trouble finding a good analogue for these weapons is because you are intending to use it for something which it wasn't meant to be used as.

Rediscovering a pattern/stc for an Imperial Titan is a little bit different than a combat knife or plasma gun. As for battlefield modification, I'm not sure if you can 'modify' a Warhound into that Dreamforge abomination.

Stifle yourself.

But those guns (and the Leviathan in general) don't look anything like the guns they're supposed to be. They're no closer than any other large bipedal walker with two primary arm weapons, and certainly don't have any of the distinctive GW elements. The only reason anyone is arguing in favor of them is the low price of the kit. If the Leviathan cost $600 each then all of that speculation about "alternate STC patterns" would be forgotten entirely.

BECAUSE THEY ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE THOSE GUNS, WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!???

I just have to ask you guys:

Would you rather face a rare proxied Dreamforge titan OR...

Face this "Can I have 3 riptides & 9 xv88s?" on a regular basis?

 zephoid wrote:
The GW Turbo Laser looks like two barrels. Thats it. The 'canon' look is about as generic as you can possibly get. This at least the H.E.L has some character and could reasonably fill in. Both of the mega bolter and the leviathan version are very generic, so neither wins that.

Now, the GW plasma blast gun does look more distinctive and i can see an argument against that. It has the distinctive plasma look and the coils are something than almost no system has emulated, making them distinctive to 40k.

My problem with the leviathan is that its both too small to be a Warhound and it really doesnt fit the Guard look of things. It looks like a marine. It has too many rounded surfaces, the face is GK-esk, and it looks too polished. If you cut grooves in the plates to give them a more segmented look, plated the torso, replaced the head, and added the reactor cooler on the back it would look much better.

The beauty of the imperial guard is the fact there is no distinctive look. They can be whatever you want them to be. Billions of worlds (or whatever ridiculous number) each with its own culture and aesthetics means there can be any number of variations between their gear. Look at the lasguns for example. Vostroyan lasrifles are completely different from cadian ones. So "the general look of things" really means the current and limited boring line of GW and FW imperial guard. The idea of a general look is just an ignorant view of the imperial guard. Go look at the old imperial guard codex and you will see the kind of variety to expect with the guard.

Plasma however is pretty bang on, takes work to make a plasma gun from another company.

The size will not make a difference in game unless you purposefully make a map to prove me wrong. Other than that it will not make a difference.

This sorta topic was posted about a month ago in using the Leviathan as a suitable proxy for the Warhound. If you would've read that thread you would know not to post a topic like that on here. It went on for 3+ pages or some such nonsense. I bought a Leviathan because I wanted a REAL model to work with as I think its a much better quality model than basically anything Forgeworld puts out. If you don't have a problem with your opponent asking you 2 or 3 times per round what weapons it has on it, I say go for it. If they're legal in your local group, I'd ask those players what weapons they think would be suitable replacements/proxies, not the dakka world, and roll on. I bought mine, not to spam d weapons like most of the anti-Leviathan people think is the reason for buying one, but to run dual vulcan mega bolters on it. Gotta love a heavy 30 anything in a game!!! Assemble it and put an imperial looking paint job on it. Done.

chaos0xomega wrote:
BECAUSE THEY ARENT SUPPOSED TO BE THOSE GUNS, WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!???

That's exactly my point. They're guns made for a model in a completely different game and fictional universe, the only reason to try to compare them to 40k guns is to justify the use of a cheap proxy model.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
This sorta topic was posted about a month ago in using the Leviathan as a suitable proxy for the Warhound. If you would've read that thread you would know not to post a topic like that on here. It went on for 3+ pages or some such nonsense. I bought a Leviathan because I wanted a REAL model to work with as I think its a much better quality model than basically anything Forgeworld puts out. If you don't have a problem with your opponent asking you 2 or 3 times per round what weapons it has on it, I say go for it. If they're legal in your local group, I'd ask those players what weapons they think would be suitable replacements/proxies, not the dakka world, and roll on. I bought mine, not to spam d weapons like most of the anti-Leviathan people think is the reason for buying one, but to run dual vulcan mega bolters on it. Gotta love a heavy 30 anything in a game!!! Assemble it and put an imperial looking paint job on it. Done.

This guy gets it....shame other people (Peregrene) don't.

 sub-zero wrote:

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
This sorta topic was posted about a month ago in using the Leviathan as a suitable proxy for the Warhound. If you would've read that thread you would know not to post a topic like that on here. It went on for 3+ pages or some such nonsense. I bought a Leviathan because I wanted a REAL model to work with as I think its a much better quality model than basically anything Forgeworld puts out. If you don't have a problem with your opponent asking you 2 or 3 times per round what weapons it has on it, I say go for it. If they're legal in your local group, I'd ask those players what weapons they think would be suitable replacements/proxies, not the dakka world, and roll on. I bought mine, not to spam d weapons like most of the anti-Leviathan people think is the reason for buying one, but to run dual vulcan mega bolters on it. Gotta love a heavy 30 anything in a game!!! Assemble it and put an imperial looking paint job on it. Done.

This guy gets it....shame other people (Peregrene) don't.

Don't get what? I dislike proxies, whether it's a flamer for a plasma gun or a Rhino as a Predator or a Leviathan as a Warhound.

I love how everybody that doesn't want a cheaper, smaller, fluff killing model on the board is suddenly evil.

To use and expland sub-zero's phrase.

It's a shame other people don't get it....the model gives advantages over the Warhound model and in the realm of 40k looks nothing like what a Scout titan would look like or need to look like to accomplish the capabilities you want it to come with.

If you REALLY love the model, which I can't deny you even if I think it's rubbish, homebrew rules for it would make it allowed in any game of mine. Just don't tell me it is a Warhound.