Ravenwing grenade launchers, are they worth losing plasma shots?

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**Khaine's Wrath**

Ok, my primary opponent is farsight list. So I've been hunting for a way to be more effective against them without specifically tailoring. Last night I was browsing through my codex, and I re-read the Ravenwing Grenade launcher rules, and I think I must have mis read the rules first time round. I didn't realise you only had to HIT to reduce the target units toughness. So before I get excited I want dakka's advice on a few things...

If a unit is it with a rad grenade, does it reduce the whole units toughness, or just the models under the template?

If I fire my rad grenade first and then my plasma talons from the black knights in the same unit, will their plasma talons be resolved at a reduced toughness value?

Does the -1 toughness count for the rest of the turn? So any unit shooting at that target resolves their attacks against the reduced toughness?

I'll set up an example, to see if I can help. My opponent drops in farsight with 3 battlesuits. I fire a rad grenade at the unit and hit two models with the template. I then fire the remainder of the squads plasma talons (4 in total) at the squad. If the squad is all reduced to toughness 3, arguably these 4 talons could instant death all 4 battlesuits...

Let say 1 or 2 survive, if I then fire my second black knight squad at them, do they count as toughness 3 or 4? I'm hoping 3 so they also have a chance of instant deathing them.

Also, are rad grenades cumulative?

Finally, and more tactics based - does anyone use Ravenwing grenade launchers? If so how? And how much success have you had? I'm thinking these could be a secret gem....at least I'm hoping!

**Mr.Omega**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Ok, my primary opponent is farsight list. So I've been hunting for a way to be more effective against them without specifically tailoring. Last night I was browsing through my codex, and I re-read the Ravenwing Grenade launcher rules, and I think I must have mis read the rules first time round. I didn't realise you only had to HIT to reduce the target units toughness. So before I get excited I want dakka's advice on a few things...

If a unit is it with a rad grenade, does it reduce the whole units toughness, or just the models under the template?

Models under the template.

If I fire my rad grenade first and then my plasma talons from the black knights in the same unit, will their plasma talons be resolved at a reduced toughness value?

Yes.

Does the -1 toughness count for the rest of the turn? So any unit shooting at that target resolves their attacks against the reduced toughness?

Can't remember at present

I'll set up an example, to see if I can help. My opponent drops in farsight with 3 battlesuits. I fire a rad grenade at the unit and hit two models with the template. I then fire the remainder of the squads plasma talons (4 in total) at the squad. If the squad is all reduced to toughness 3, arguably these 4 talons could instant death all 4 battlesuits...

Indeed.

Let say 1 or 2 survive, if I then fire my second black knight squad at them, do they count as toughness 3 or 4? I'm hoping 3 so they also have a chance of instant deathing them.

I'll get back to you on that.

Also, are rad grenades cumulative?

I was sure it was yes but I've heard otherwise.

Finally, and more tactics based - does anyone use Ravenwing grenade launchers? If so how? And how much success have you had? I'm thinking these could be a secret gem....at least I'm hoping!

**Thairne**

it does hit only the models under the template. However the Rulings state that EVERY Model hit in a UNIT with a Rad Grenade has its T reduced UNTIL the END of the TURN.

It does state however, that the unit is affected if hit by one or more. So they don't stack. Firing a Stasis Shell followed by a Hammer of Wrath and an I4 Str 5 Rending Attacks... *squish*

You HIT them reducing their toughness at the same time as the plasma talons hit. On Wound rolls afterwards against the reduced T for the other PT's in the Squad.

Great success!

**Big Blind Bill**

Ok lets correct some things:

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Ok, my primary opponent is farsight list. So I've been hunting for a way to be more effective against them without specifically tailoring. Last night I was browsing through my codex, and I re-read the Ravenwing Grenade launcher rules, and I think I must have mis read the rules first time round. I didn't realise you only had to HIT to reduce the target units toughness. So before I get excited I want dakka's advice on a few things...

If a unit is it with a rad grenade, does it reduce the whole units toughness, or just the models under the template?

Models under the template. No, it effects the whole unit, even if only 1 model is hit from it.

If I fire my rad grenade first and then my plasma talons from the black knights in the same unit, will their plasma talons be resolved at a reduced toughness value?

Yes. correct

Does the -1 toughness count for the rest of the turn? So any unit shooting at that target resolves their attacks against the reduced toughness?

Can't remember at present Yes the end of the turn, that includes the shooting and assault phase.

I'll set up an example, to see if I can help. My opponent drops in farsight with 3 battlesuits. I fire a rad grenade at the unit and hit two models with the template. I then fire the remainder of the squads plasma talons (4 in total) at the squad. If the squad is all reduced to toughness 3, arguably these 4 talons could instant death all 4 battlesuits...

Indeed. correct

Let say 1 or 2 survive, if I then fire my second black knight squad at them, do they count as toughness 3 or 4? I'm hoping 3 so they also have a chance of instant deathing them.

I'll get back to you on that. The effects of the grenades last until the end of the turn, so shoot them first, and every other unit who shoots or assaults the target benefits from it.

Also, are rad grenades cumulative?

I was sure it was yes but I've heard otherwise. "Every model in a unit hit by one or more" so no, they do not stack, nor do they stack with the dark talon statis bomb.

Finally, and more tactics based - does anyone use Ravenwing grenade launchers? If so how? And how much success have you had? I'm thinking these could be a secret gem....at least I'm hopin Yes people use them, they act as force multiplies and work well at enhancing bolter banner lists, as well as helping plasma talons ID T4 models and hurting riptides and Wraithknights more. (They can also be fun when used alongside vindicators or Deathwing knights to ID T6 models).

Now on to your question, which is a difficult one. Are they worth it?

Yes and no, sometimes my grenade launcher has helped take down a particularly tough unit. But then again in other instances I wished I had had those extra 2 plasma shots. Overall it can add some useful advantages. -1WS and I can have a tremendous impact when fighting other marines. You hit more, and they attack after you. Personally I don't like the 12 range on it.

Give it a go. It is a viable choice, but some people like it more than others.

**Khaine's Wrath**

Ok, I have essentially 4 units of 5 knights, (2 FA and 2 RCS) so I was going to put a Ravenwing grenade launcher on each of the FA squads? Sound feesable?

**Big Blind Bill**

Feasible sure, but perhaps overkill. There is no right or wrong here, you will have to give them a go and see what you like.

**Kisada II**

Ravenwing grenade launcher is worth it every time,
Don't forget they lower the toughness of T4 models to T3 which makes the rest of the plasma instant death Paladins, Broadsides etc.

**Desubot**

Unless your trying to go for one heck of a wombo combo (Farsight Tau + DA for Darkstrider + Riptide IC + rad to ID T6 models.) its probably good to have 1 or so.

**Khaine's Wrath**

Well, my main opponent is a farsight list, so I'm going to use it to ID suits, and be that little more painful to riptides!

**Feasible**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Sound feesable?

You called? Sounds Feasible is also my XBL gamertag so the star aligned on this.

**Khaine's Wrath**

You a dark angels player feesable?

**Feasible**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
You a dark angels player feesable?

Nilla Marines but i play dark angels quite a bit, and rad grenades are one of the things that actually scares me.

**Khaine's Wrath**

Feasible wrote:
Khaine's Wrath wrote:
You a dark angels player feesable?

Nilla Marines but i play dark angels quite a bit, and rad grenades are one of the things that actually scares me.

I'm beginning to think they're a bit of a hidden gem!

**Krellnus**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Also, are rad grenades cumulative?

Depends what you are asking about.
If you asking about the RGLs firing Rad Shells from another squad, then no, if you are asking about Rad Grenades available to Codex: Inquisition and Codex: Grey Knights characters, then yes, since they are not stated as not stacking.

**Big Blind Bill**

You can always try to combine the grey knight grenades with the ravenwing grenades and enfeeble. Toughness 3 riptides anyone?

Its very unlikely to get all of these things to happen, but the effect can be fun. Instant death those nob bikers or centurions with bolters.

**Exalbaru**

theyre pretty great, always having them in any 3 man unit of knights

**Khaine's Wrath**

Well, I have 4 5 man units. (2 fast attack, and 2 command squads) I'm going to put 1 in each fast attack squad and see how that works out.