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So this question basically comes from me musing over the though of how differnt would Lion El'Jonson have been if he hadn't grown up in the harsh forests of Caliban.
So as the subject reads, how much of a Primarch's characteristics come from their homeworld and how much from the Emperor himself.
For example if there is obviously no doubt that Magnus got his psychic abilities from the Emperor himself but would Russ, for example, be as mad as he is (/was) if he hadn't grown up on Fenris?

What do you guys think?
BP

Basically all of them would be completely different, none of them would of fallen to chaos if they were all grown up on terra. They would see terra as their home. And would never fight against it. I bet they would protect terra as much as possible, and would weep if it was attacked.

As I understand it, each primarch shares an aspect of the emperors personality/being, for example Magnus got his physic skill. So seems to me that the lion just got the awkward asocial aspect of the emperor.. or "secretive side" in sales-speak.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Basically all of them would be completely different, none of them would of fallen to chaos if they were all grown up on terra. They would see terra as their home. And would never fight against it. I bet they would protect terra as much as possible, and would weep if it was attacked.

I was more getting at what if say Rogal Dorn had ended up Fenris instead of Russ. Would he be a creature of the wild hunting as Russ did? And in turn, would Russ have been more civilized had he grown up elsewhere?

They would all change the Primachs home worlds culture influenced the Primachs greatly. Angron being a very good example what would happen if Russ and Angron swapped home worlds

 Pharcae wrote:
As I understand it, each primarch shares an aspect of the emperors personality/being, for example Magnus got his physic skill. So seems to me that the lion just got the awkward asocial aspect of the emperor.. or "secretive side" in sales-speak.

But surely living in the Caliban wild for as long as he did would've affected this, no?

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Pharcae wrote:
As I understand it, each primarch shares an aspect of the emperors personality/being, for example Magnus got his physic skill. So seems to me that the lion just got the awkward asocial aspect of the emperor.. or "secretive side" in sales-speak.

But surely living in the Caliban wild for as long as he did would've affected this, no?

Sort of. It would of made him more social if he was Switched with Gulliman, but he would of done it in other ways.

But I like the idea that if they were all from terra, none of them would betray the emperor. They truly would of been his sons.

So this is a nature versus nurture thread?

I say nurture. The planets that the primarchs were born on shaped each one to the dot.

Probably a lot. Magnus gained his love of knowledge from his world, whereas Russ got his love of alcohol from his world.


If they had all grown up on Terra, it would probably turned out a lot less chaosy.

The real question is who would have been elected Warmaster if they'd all been raised on Terra?

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
The real question is who would have been elected Warmaster if they'd all been raised on Terra?

Dorn. No questions asked.

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
The real question is who would have been elected Warmaster if they'd all been raised on Terra?

Dorn. No questions asked.

Sanguinius?

Or Guilliman...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
The real question is who would have been elected Warmaster if they'd all been raised on Terra?

Dorn. No questions asked.

Sanguinius?

Or Guilliman...

Ok maybe

I've seen talk about this before. It would have been Sanguinius, Horus was dying on a planet at one point during the Great Crusade and there is a quote of him saying UGH...AHHHHHH....OOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooo....SANGUINIUS MUST BE WAHMASTAH....

or something to that effect.

Seems legit

 Brother Payne wrote:
Seems legit

Must be saw it on the internet.

To me each Primarch is who they are based on where they grew up. I think that even though they all had characteristics from the emperor, they are who they are from the planet they are from. Essentially the Primarchs are a blank slate where they are all mostly identical personality wise. Their upbringing shaped them into who they became.

So by someone's example from above, if Dorn and Russ switched, then they would still grow up as Russ and Dorn. It's just that Russ would be named Dorn, act like Dorn, and do as Dorn did. Dorn would be Russ in every way too.

Basically what I am saying is that they are all each other, and at the same time all different.

I might even go as far as saying that they all had all of the Emperor's characteristics. Their planets all brought out one in particular.

It is constantly noted that Angron is a tragic damaged Primarch. He should have been the epitome of martial prowess but he was chained, altered and broken by his captors. His only "family" were slaughtered and he was "saved" by an uncaring father. He would have been great had he not have been fixed with the nails and grown up a slave.

Curze grew up in a city where all he saw was the worst of humanity. Where terror was the only solution, with no mentor or moral compass, he surely would have turned out differently had he grown up anywhere else.

With his father's secular hand, instead of Kor Phaeron's fanatacism, Lorgar would have had no reason to grow up with the need to follow gods.

Most of the "good" Primarchs had good father figures and role models. With the exception of Russ who was raised by Wolves but I think it's arguable that nurture had a lot to do with their different temperments. It's even speculated that the Emperor knew, or planned for the scattering, to purposely test the Primarchs.

If they were all on Terra, and raised equally, I don't think there ever would have been a need for a single war master. There is a chance the Emperor would have shared the secrets of the warp with his sons, as they all would have been closer. That or the Crusade could have been split up more equally, with not one person in complete control. The change of lead up events would change the overall outcome.

To the OP though, I think that some would have been the same, others would have been different had they swapped planets. It is the whole nature vs nurture debate, but I think that they would have mostly been the same (considering they mature in a very short amount of time). But would have Angron been as psycho if not for his brain implants, and forced gladiatorial life? It is hard to say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 changerofways wrote:
So this is a nature versus nurture thread?

I say nurture. The planets that the primarchs were born on shaped each one to the dot.

Yeah but on that, if you swapped the Primarchs around, would they have acted in the same way? Like Curze being batman? Do you think that all of them would have become the batman had of they been in his spot?

I was more getting at what if say Rogal Dorn had ended up Fenris instead of Russ. Would he be a creature of the wild hunting as Russ did? And in turn, would Russ have been more civilized had he grown up elsewhere?

In one of the books somewhere, can't for the life of me remember which, the Primarch in question mused over when Russ would drop the barbarian act.
The way it was written suggested that at least a couple of the other Primarchs knew that Russ was only the uncivilised barbarian because that's the role he had given himself.

Mostly, though, their main nature came from what ever the Emperor gave them as a gift, e.g. Corax being able to hide in plain sight, but their character came from where they were raised. I think, plot wise, it just happened that most landed on planets that suited them the most.

Kurze might have been the only one still broken. I can't recall where, but isn't he like, genetically unstable?

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
It is constantly noted that Angron is a tragic damaged Primarch. He should have been the epitome of martial prowess but he was chained, altered and broken by his captors. His only "family" were slaughtered and he was "saved" by an uncaring father. He would have been great had he not have been fixed with the nails and grown up a slave.

Curze grew up in a city where all he saw was the worst of humanity. Where terror was the only solution, with no mentor or moral compass, he surely would have turned out differently had he grown up anywhere else.

With his father's secular hand, instead of Kor Phaeron's fanatacism, Lorgar would have had no reason to grow up with the need to follow gods.

Most of the "good" Primarchs had good father figures and role models. With the exception of Russ who was raised by Wolves but I think it's arguable that nurture had a lot to do with their different temperments. It's even speculated that the Emperor knew, or planned for the scattering, to purposely test the Primarchs.

This actually the perfect argument - evidence and all! That's kind of what I had in mind when I made the thread and I totally agree with you

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
It is constantly noted that Angron is a tragic damaged Primarch. He should have been the epitome of martial prowess but he was chained, altered and broken by his captors. His only "family" were slaughtered and he was "saved" by an uncaring father. He would have been great had he not have been fixed with the nails and grown up a slave.

Curze grew up in a city where all he saw was the worst of humanity. Where terror was the only solution, with no mentor or moral compass, he surely would have turned out differently had he grown up anywhere else.

With his father's secular hand, instead of Kor Phaeron's fanatacism, Lorgar would have had no reason to grow up with the need to follow gods.

Most of the "good" Primarchs had good father figures and role models. With the exception of Russ who was raised by Wolves but I think it's arguable that nurture had a lot to do with their different temperments. It's even speculated that the Emperor knew, or planned for the scattering, to purposely test the Primarchs.

what about Corax? all he saw was the worst of humanity being stuck on lyceus seeing his friends tortured murdered and worked to death. but Coraz turned out alright. one of the first things he did was kill a man surely that isnt a way to start life?

if Lorgar grew up on terra i think that he may have actually tuned out worse, he migh have accidently gone "missing" like 2 of his brohers as well. think about it. Empy kills all religion just for his son to hear about it and spread it. at least he was working withhis father after growing up with KF rather than against him. then again if he had gone missing would that mean none of the Primarchs turn to chaos?

It's suggested in Scars that the Chaos Gods hand a hand in where the ones that would turn to Chaos landed. Some didn't quite land where they wanted them to, like Fulgrim was supposed to land on Chogoris rather than Chemos.

I'm starting to believe more that the Emperor entered into some form of bargain with the Chaos Gods to be able to create the Primarchs, but he didn't follow through, the scattering was payback and their corruption for good measure.

I wonder how Fulgrim would have ended up on Chogoris... the perfect hunter?

 MrBlackledge wrote:

what about Corax? all he saw was the worst of humanity being stuck on lyceus seeing his friends tortured murdered and worked to death. but Coraz turned out alright. one of the first things he did was kill a man surely that isnt a way to start life?

But he also saw the strength, will and determination of those less fortunate, the ones he called brothers. Curze wallowed and reveled in the evil of Nostramo.

If Curze had landed on Ultramar, how would he have turned out? He would still have the design that the Emperor had intended for him already built in, and the visions of his death I guess, but if he had a mentor and a family like Guilliman did, would he have been such a cad? Would Guilliman, with his traits and mind, have turned out like Curze or would he have built an Empire around Nostramo?

cant remember where i read it but im pretty sure that thats exactly why they were scattered, as some form of dodgy revenge on the Emperor although i have no idea what the bargain was.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's suggested in Scars that the Chaos Gods hand a hand in where the ones that would turn to Chaos landed. Some didn't quite land where they wanted them to, like Fulgrim was supposed to land on Chogoris rather than Chemos.

I'm starting to believe more that the Emperor entered into some form of bargain with the Chaos Gods to be able to create the Primarchs, but he didn't follow through, the scattering was payback and their corruption for good measure.

I wonder how Fulgrim would have ended up on Chogoris... the perfect hunter?

 MrBlackledge wrote:

what about Corax? all he saw was the worst of humanity being stuck on lyceus seeing his friends tortured murdered and worked to death. but Coraz turned out alright. one of the first things he did was kill a man surely that isnt a way to start life?

But he also saw the strength, will and determination of those less fortunate, the ones he called brothers. Curze wallowed and reveled in the evil of Nostramo.

If Curze had landed on Ultramar, how would he have turned out? He would still have the design that the Emperor had intended for him already built in, and the visions of his death I guess, but if he had a mentor and a family like Guilliman did, would he have been such a cad? Would Guilliman, with his traits and mind, have turned out like Curze or would he have built an Empire around Nostramo?

Well if Guilman would have landed on Nostramo he would have probably made a empire like Ultramar but more grimdark and one ruled with force.

Curze was always destined to be broken, first thing he did was grab a weapon and go towards humanity. I imagine that he would probably have been the black sheep brother no matter what, but maybe he'd have made a friend or two.

Alpharius wouldn't be as secretive, everyone would know there was 2 of him.

I like to think that the Primarchs would have handled the same situations differently, like Angron would join the tribes on Macragge ect.

If raised on Terra, perhaps there would be clpeer bonds and bigger rivalries.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Curze was always destined to be broken, first thing he did was grab a weapon and go towards humanity. I imagine that he would probably have been the black sheep brother no matter what, but maybe he'd have made a friend or two.

Alpharius wouldn't be as secretive, everyone would know there was 2 of him.

I like to think that the Primarchs would have handled the same situations differently, like Angron would join the tribes on Macragge ect.

If raised on Terra, perhaps there would be clpeer bonds and bigger rivalries.

But there would be more of a brotherly connection. They would learn from each other, and Sangunius and Magnus would teach everyone about the horrors of the warp.

There would literally be no horus heresy if they all had stayed on terra.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I'm starting to believe more that the Emperor entered into some form of bargain with the Chaos Gods to be able to create the Primarchs, but he didn't follow through, the scattering was payback and their corruption for good measure.

It literally explains this in False Gods. Big E didn't have the power to create the Primarch's himself, or if he did he was greedy and wanted them to be more powerful, so yeah he basically gave me to the Chaos Gods to muck around with provided they spit em back out again...

In regards to the emperor needing help from the big four to make the primarchs, I always feel like empy could make their forms, but needed help to craft their powerful souls.