Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
"New Tyranid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few months now and my impression is..."

Said nobody ever (yet).

Here, let me fix that for you.

New Tyrabid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few years now, cause it is the exact same codex as the 5th codex SERIOUSLY take a second to compare them side by side, do it before you keep talking, and my impression is that it isn't going to wow anyone. It isn't medicore, it is bad. Everything that was good was nerfed, things that were bad are still bad, and the new units range from straight bad to potentially medicore.

Feel better?

I have done the side by side comparison with a store copy of the 5th codex. Nothing changed in any substantial way except for the worse. My god, I still can not believe that someone, somewhere thought to themselves, "Man Scything Talons are OP, we need to fix this!"

 Ratliker wrote:
Perhaps we should start Ignoring all the trolls who try to derail the thread by all that
"you can't say codex is bad you haven't played it for months"
And just focus on what this turd of a codex has to offer (if any).

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.

Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.

I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.

In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.

Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.

Again, it's not even so much that I think the book is an unwinable turd (I think it does suck) the real problem is that more things were taken than were added in, and the majority of things that were good before have been nerfed. The book still might be good, but it really seems to just be 5E codex with nerfs, and that's unfortunate.

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
@ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.

for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)

Um... You realise there is a major difference between 3+ and 2+ don't you?
I mean, with 3+ their is a 1/3 chance of being wounded, a 2+
is 1/6
Half as many shots will wound a 2+ as 3+.
Also, hive tyrants with wings are ugly as hell.
Especially when people put fleshborer hives on them, I mean seriously, how does one of those things fly.
Don't say "well how does the harpy/crone/shrike/gargoyles fly?"
They have specialised hollow bones and gas bladders.

Makumba wrote:

Yeah synapse is a bit more strict and common sense but I just can't understand all the hate.

How offten do you play against good lists ?

 kirsanth wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
By 'good' lists do you mean douchy WAAC lists

OK, so how often do you play against people that understand game play and design an army around it?

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.

Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.

The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!

And my 1500 point tournament list is both more expensive AND not legal....so, yay for you?

I stand by the fact that there were almost no point reductions in the codex outside of a tiny buff to carnifexes and a moderate one to tyranno-fexes.

Makumba wrote:

As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that

Without synaps your not moving fast anywhere . There is not outside of the bubble . Nids need it to work and opponents know that killing them will be a huge boon for them . And in a game where there is ignore cover stuff , D weapons and ally in case your army doesn't have any of the first two keeping something alive is far from easy.

 kirsanth wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.

This reads as "I just wrote a list proving that things got cheaper."

 streamdragon wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
I must have a different (new) Tyranid codex than everyone else, I see a LOT of units getting cheaper. In fact, with the models I own, no matter how hard I try there is no combination I could make that is more expensive.

My Hive Tyrant with 2xTL-Devourers (add wings) is 230 (versus 260) with better BS.
Tyrant guard cheaper
Lictor cheaper
Zoanthropes cheaper
Venomthropes cheaper
Pyrovore (lol) cheaper
Shrikes cheaper
Ravener same
Gargoyles same
Harpy cheaper
Warriors same
Genestealers same
Termagants cheaper
Hormogaunts cheaper
Carnifex cheaper
Biovore cheaper
Trygon cheaper
Mawloc cheaper
Tyrannofex cheaper

Pretty sure that Shrikes didn't change, but otherwise the list looks right.

Mostly it's just that cheaper does not always equal better, especially when the power level of models went down as the points when down. A prime example: Trygons (see what i did there?) got 10 points cheaper, but lost their rerolls to hit in melee. I'd gladly pay the 10 points for that.

Only a handful of models came down in price without taking a nerf in the process, and of those that did, only an even smaller handful of those became suddenly useful.

Zoanthropes took a versatility and IMO power hit. Brotherhood of Psykers is not as good as 3 individual users.

Pyrovore: You could drop this thing another 10 PPM and STILL no one would take it. Without Spods or Torrent, it is pretty much DoA.

Lictors: 15 points cheaper, gained infiltrate. Good buffs for an underused model. It still lost its rerolls (but gained an attack) and lost rending on Flesh Hooks.

Termagants: lost their TS/AG AND LD from a nearby Tervigon. You want those biomorphs, you pay MORE per model than previously. Was the tervigon cut in price or did it remain the same for losing this ability? Nope, we all know how that turned out.

Hormagaunts: Lost their rerolls in CC. -1PPM not really big enough to make someone take Horms over Terms. Should really have come down to the same price point.

Carnifex: Was stupidly overpriced before (so you never saw them). Down to where they should have been, but lost an attack in the process. Making a CC fex? They get the attack back, but still lost their rerolls. There's also almost 0 reason to take crushing claws anymore, imo.

Trygon has been covered.

There are definitely some buffed units:
Biovores: The new spore rule is strange and should probably have been 1 mine per biovore to make full broods more worthwhile than single models, but enh.
Tyrannofex: That you could drop 75 points off this guy shows how insanely priced he was. As it is, the only thing he really has going for him over other models in this slot is that 2+, which we lost anywhere else.

As to "there is no combination I could make that is more expensive", you're just not trying hard enough. Did you previously pay points to have a Tervigon (as a troop) with TS/AG to pass onto Termagants? Welp, there you go. If you want those Terms with TS/AG, and that Terv as a troop you're paying WAY more than you used to.

Old
10x Term: 50
Terv w TS/AG: 180
Total: 230

New
30x Term w TS/AG: 240
Terv: 195
Total: 435
(Keep in mind, that Tervigon no longer has TS/AG himself, that'd be another 25 points)

But let's pretend we don't care about TS/AG on Terms
30x Term: 120
Terv: 195
Total : 315

Still 85 points more, AND less effective to boot!

 kirsanth wrote:
I am going to do like the ignorant white knights.

Things are cheaper if you don't upgrade them to be useful!
This book is the best!

Oh wait, Carnifex are still more than 4e so it is an AWESOME UPGRADE because I am too new to understand stupid.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Here's the reality of the situation.

Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.

 Ravenous D wrote:

You aren't comprehending this....

In 3rd and 4th there were ways to reliably mitigate the negative effects of synapse, in 5th you had a mono build and synapse wasn't an issue til late game. Early 6th you had deployment options and hard synapse pegs. Now you can be crippled in a turn and you aren't given anything to help patch the problems, instead you were handed more problems, sure take buckets of termagants and hormagaunts, half will pin themselves or run away while the other half actually kill themselves.

Having synapse just be fearless and IB being representive by their low Ld was good enough, to add charts and further negatives to that is extremely poor design. No other army has to worry about its unit killing itself off an objective with that amount of certainty.

Nids are weak in the first turn and late game. Right there you are looking at uphill battle games where your tactics basically involve hoping your opponent rolls poorly*

 Zande4 wrote:
@Gunzhard For the last 10 pages you've been the only one who keeps mentioning how Tyranids will stack up against Tau. Meanwhile everyone else has calmly tried to explain that it's not the power level of the Codex they are not happy with. It's the copy/paste job from an already lazy 5th edition Codex, the adding of about 5% new Artwork and fluff, not fixing a single broken unit thus leaving the internal balance outside of Heavy Support an absolute mess, sheer frustration at things that we can't comprehend like Rippers going up in price and Pyrovores staying terrible, the removal.. I repeat the removal of units from the previous Codex... the day one DLC in the shape of Data Slates and the frustration that we now have to live with this dex for another 3-5 years after we just endured the last one.

To be perfectly honest the Codex does have viable builds and has as much chance against Tau/Eldar asmost other armies but it's just the complete lack of effort that appears to have been put into this book that boggles the mind and is why so many of us are "whining".

This is at no one in particular but from what I can tell a lot of the people who dislike the Codex are Tyranid players who started in 2nd/3rd/4th and a lot of the "White Knights" are people who I presume with how often they're quoting rules and point values wrong and the list they used to take are:
A: People who started nids in 5th with the 5th Codex and thus did not endure the pain of the 4th to 5th transition like so many of us.
B: People who started nids in 6th with 5th Codex.
C: People who never played nids and just like a good argument.

Makumba wrote:

The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.

The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Makumba wrote:

The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.

The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?

Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.

Here is a 2k nid versus tau (spammy 3 riptide) batrep that could've easily gone either way, but again the Tau player must've been a newb cuz the synapse didn't all die immediately. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/01/40k-batrep-tyranids-vs-tau-2k-double-foc.html

So you're evidence is non standard points where the game isn't close to balanced. Okay, I see you have a heavy stock of this: