Your thoughts on new Tyranids Codex?

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**Makumba**

One thing the new codex might stimulate is more diverse builds - huge swarms, flyer spam, MC spam - and it's hard for people to judge unless they try them out and evolve new tactics.

LoL that is like saying that because IG got vendettas it stimulated them to make many different builds or the same for chaos with helldrakes.
Right now they more or less have to take 2 mawlocks and got forbid it gets FAQed or someone can play with opponents reserv rolls or plays a fortification build .
If a guant costs more or the same what it cost in the last codex and a lot of options fall away , because they lost pods and tervigon buffers , then they at least lost options of deployment .
If a vindicator doesn't destroy other armies , then a template exorcine won't destroy them . If tau can't win by spaming plasmas , then neither will nids with the exorcine .
If good armies were able to live with 2-3 FMC before the new tyranid dex , then they will still be able to deal with 2-3 FMC from the new nid codex.

Now I don't know much about 2k+games , everyone plays 1500 here and at 1500 both the old and the new nids sucked. And now they lost their only saving tricks . biomancy, doom, pod deviguants and ymgrasyls.

**AtoMaki**

Melissia wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:

3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."

More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?

Number 3 is more like "I've played using this army in the previous edition and it wasn't bad."

.

**Melissia**

Because no one could ever disagree with you on a matter of opinion without being dishonest about it.

**Ashiraya**

Melissia wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:

3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."

More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?

More importantly, I'm now annoyed that there is yet another nasty flier I'm gonna have to deal with... mutter.

A nasty flier that is on mathematical average oneshotted by a Quadgun the phase it comes in from Reserves, mind.

**CthuluIsSpy**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:

3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."

More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?

More importantly, I'm now annoyed that there is yet another nasty flier I'm gonna have to deal with... mutter.

A nasty flier that is on mathematical average oneshotted by a Quadgun the phase it comes in from Reserves, mind.

That's why you barrage the Quadgun with spore mines first

**Sturmtruppe**

I'm wondering if the seemingly underwhelming Codex is a planned prequel to a better supplement (similar to Black Legion or Farsight Enclaves) that will make Nids better but will require another $50 purchase.

**Looky Likey**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
A nasty flier that is on mathematical average oneshotted by a Quadgun the phase it comes in from Reserves, mind.

I don't understand how it does that? Crone & Harpy are 5 wounds and T5, quad gun is 4 shots and S7? I'm only getting 3.2 wounds at BS5?

Edit: And the Harpy/Crone can also start on the table

**Shamanlord1961**

Looky Likey wrote:
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
A nasty flier that is on mathematical average oneshotted by a Quadgun the phase it comes in from Reserves, mind.
I don't understand how it does that? Crone & Harpy are 5 wounds and T5, quad gun is 4 shots and S7? I'm only getting 3.2 wounds at BS5?

Edit: And the Harpy/Crone can also start on the table

This is what I am thinking, you can start it on the table, fly it 24" first turn, run and vector strike the quadgun. I mean if you are that worried about the quad gun, just take it out from the start and if you go second, just limit its targets to crappier stuff turn 1. It isn't impossible to deal with and sure you are wasting points killing a 50 point model, but if it saves you several hundred points later on, I say it is still a big win.

**Ashiraya**

It is 4 wounds, is it not?

And the quadgun is twinlinked.

**Maelstrom808**

Statistically, it doesn't kill it on average, but what it does do is take off most of it's wounds, and forces a grounding test. If it fails that test, it's almost certainly dead either from the fall, or from the fact that it's a T5 4+ critter sitting on the ground with probably 1 wound at that point...meaning it's fodder for pretty much anything in range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It is 4 wounds, is it not?

And the quadgun is twinlinked.

5 wounds

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shamanlord1961 wrote:

This is what I am thinking, you can start it on the table, fly it 24" first turn, run and vector strike the quadgun. I mean if you are that worried about the quad gun, just take it out from the start and if you go second, just limit its targets to crappier stuff turn 1. It isn't impossible to deal with and sure you are wasting points killing a 50 point model, but if it saves you several hundred points later on, I say it is still a big win.

Why would anyone place their quadgun within range of a turn 1 vector strike? Deploy it 1" back from the front of their deployment zone and it's now safe from the vector strike and only lost 1" of range....which is still far enough to cover most of the board.

**Looky Likey**

I work it out to 3.2 wounds with BS5 and twin linked so it should have 2 wounds left? Plus if you are letting the quad gun shoot any flyer without having a good go at removing the quad gun first you are doing it wrong.

If I was starting first the crone/harpy would start on the table and I'd be focusing whatever I needed to remove any dedicated anti air, starting second and I'm going to keep it in reserve and focus on removing that anti air first turn.

**Maelstrom808**

On average 2 wounds left, and very vulnerable to grounding (which will almost certainly put another wound on it), leaving it dead in the water almost certain to not see another turn.

I think the new flyers can work, but you are going to need to have 2 flyrants + 2-3 of the crone/harpies to saturate the air defenses. Should work against most armies until you run into misslesides, or another flyer heavy army (then it comes down to who goes second).

**the shrouded lord**

Any one else notice tyrant guard can be taken independently from the tyrant, I'm planning on using them to ty up TDA and equivalents.

**Ravenous D**

Heavy weapon team with autocannons using bring it down and a quad gun = Dead crones.

50man blob squad with divination inquisitor in terrain = dead everything else.

**juraigamer**

Don't take:

Tervigons
Tyrants
Spore mine units
Pyrovores
Ripper swarms

Maybe don't take:

Genestealers
Trygons

Everything else is pretty good.

Also dealthleaper is a must have.

**Ravenous D**

juraigamer wrote:
Don't take:

Tervigons
Tyrants
Spore mine units
Pyrovores
Ripper swarms

Maybe don't take:

Genestealers
Trygons

Everything else is pretty good.

Also dealthleaper is a must have.

I disagree on death leaper. No power weapon means I just charge him and his 3 wounds and kill it. No one in their right mind will accept a challenge from him. You're basically paying 130pts to give -D3 Ld to a enemy character and maybe kill a couple dudes.

**NamelessBard**

juraigamer wrote:
Don't take:

Tervigons
Tyrants
Spore mine units
Pyrovores
Ripper swarms

Maybe don't take:

Genestealers
Trygons

Everything else is pretty good.

Also dealthleaper is a must have.

What? Tyrants got better and spore mines got infinitely better.

**Eddtheman**

Im a long time Tyranid Player and have had the opportunity to get in 5-6 games with the new book, and I have a lot of thoughts on the Nids. Just so everyone knows, I'm not a tournament player, and play a variety of armies and games. Our group is close knit (after each game night a bunch of us go to the bar and drink for longer than we played) and while we compete and try our hardest to beat each other, we dont take ourselves too seriously. For every one-sided massacre Ive given in 40K, I've had games of mordheim where my opponent has only lost one model; the guy who tried to climb down a tower, fell and killed himself. (just so everyone can understand my perspective). We often limit what we bring and have no problem "toning down" our lists to play each other.

When I first heard that Tyranids were going to be updated, I was very excited. Overall, I feel that the changes to armies and the core rules show GWs main push for 6th edition is that players can and should be able to build whatever they want. Armies can take allies to recreate forces usually only allowed in the fiction. It feels to me like GW is trying to say "Take your IG, add a SM strike force, include an inquisitor to watch over everyone, add a tau battlesuit cadre, add a fortress, add whatever you'd like, it's your game" I'd hoped that the new Tyranid codex would take their 6th edition concepts and add them to Tyranids, an army that used to give players the MOST choices and options.

And then I got the book.
TO say I was let down would be an understatement. This is the first major release in IDK how long that actually lost options. For all its faults, I actually felt like the concepts that Cruddace included in the previous book were great. He made the army rely more on synergy and introduced the all-reserved nid army. I feel like the army lost most of its synergy and it definitely lost it's previous deployment options. It also lost it's BRB psychic powers; now the only book in the game to not have access, either on its own or through allies. Instinctive Behavior became more of a hindrance and Synapse less of a benefit. Besides the venomthrope, units in the previous book that attempted to build synergy lost these options. Units in the previous codex that were auto include lost some of their power (I think everyone expected that) but may of the less played options had at best a lateral shift in terms of effectiveness None of the new options change the feel of the new army or change how the army played in the previous edition.
In the old book, I usually ran either swarm nids or drop nids. My no-shooting drop nid army is not an option any more. I cant use the ymgarls or mycetic spores any longer. My swarm army, which actually included hormagaunts and carnifeces, looks like it stayed roughly the same size as before. Points drops were eaten up by adding options and points increases in other units. When I look at my army with the new book, I see largely the same army with less options and less flavor. Sything talons lost their only rules, Toxin and Adrenal glands on gaunts became prohibitively expensive to the point that they are no longer options, IB made running hordes of small gribblies even less attractive, as the death of a synapse creature can cause the unit to rout or attack itself.

Anyone who played tyranids in the previous edition could tell you the the problems that plagues the tyranid army. Small Gribblies were too expensive to be anything but small unit objective holders. Nids had very few options for dealing with tanks and flyers. Mid-sized monsters were too expensive for only t4, genestealers did not have the staying power to survive in an edition with overwatch, interceptor, and no assaults from the board edge. TMCs were too expensive for a WS 3 3-5 attack model, and died way too easily to most things in the game.

I feel that the reason that most Nid players are complaining, even though many have not had the opportunity to play the new book, is that a single read through will show anyone with an understanding of the previous codex that the fundamental issues that plagued the previous codex and weakened the army overall were not addressed. Yes many options dropped in cost, but I feel that those units ended up being costed what they should have been in the last codex, in addition to receiving a drop in effectiveness. In addition, alot of the options that myself and many tyranid players felt would give us options were not added. In an edition that is all about adding more choices and options to one's army, tyranid players are on the outside looking in and were not given anything to make up for the exclusion of BRB psychic powers, fortifications or allies.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

Sturmtruppe wrote:
I'm wondering if the seemingly underwhelming Codex is a planned prequel to a better supplement (similar to Black Legion or Farsight Enclaves) that will make Nids better but will require another $50 purchase.

There is a Vanguard Infestation dataslate planned, which focuses on genestealers & lictors.

At present, the main problem for 'nids is troops to take objectives, a role previously fulfilled in most people's armies by tervigons. If genestealers got buffed, there'd be a lot of happy 'nid owners. But, hey, let's not hope too much. Can't remember if it's been said before on this thread, but a huge contributor to the disappointment on this subject is the rumours that fulfillfed everyone's wish lists.

**Ravenous D**

Its pretty bad when a riptide can beat a hive tyrant or fex on average in combat. And that is assuming the TMC gets there with full wounds.

**ClockworkZion**

Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

**Plumbumbarum**

Melissia wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:

3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."

More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?

More importantly, I'm now annoyed that there is yet another nasty flier I'm gonna have to deal with... mutter.

Bad hyperbole is bad.

Post for you, don't forget to respond with a sweeping generalisation lacking a single argument:

Eddtheman wrote:
Im a long time Tyranid Player and have had the opportunity to get in 5-6 games with the new book, and I have a lot of thoughts on the Nids. Just so everyone knows, I'm not a tournament player, and play a variety of armies and games. Our group is close knit (after each game night a bunch of us go to the bar and drink for longer than we played) and while we compete and try our hardest to beat each other, we dont take ourselves too seriously. For every one-sided massacre Ive given in 40K, I've had games of mordheim where my opponent has only lost one model; the guy who tried to climb down a tower, fell and killed himself. (just so everyone can understand my perspective). We often limit what we bring and have no problem "toning down" our lists to play each other.

When I first heard that Tyranids were going to be updated, I was very excited. Overall, I feel that the changes to armies and the core rules show GWs main push for 6th edition is that players can and should be able to build whatever they want. Armies can take allies to recreate forces usually only allowed in the fiction. It feels to me like GW is trying to say "Take your IG, add a SM strike force, include an inquisitor to watch over everyone, add a tau battlesuit cadre, add a fortress, add whatever you'd like, it's your game" I'd hoped that the new Tyranid codex would take their 6th edition concepts and add them to Tyranids, an army that used to give players the MOST choices and options.

And then I got the book.
TO say I was let down would be an understatement. This is the first major release in IDK how long that actually lost options. For all its faults, I actually felt like the concepts that Cruddace included in the previous book were great. He made the army rely more on synergy and introduced the all-reserved nid army. I feel like the army lost most of its synergy and it definitely lost it's previous deployment options. It also lost it's BRB psychic powers; now the only book in the game to not have access, either on its own or through allies. Instinctive Behavior became more of a hindrance and Synapse less of a benefit. Besides the venomthrope, units in the previous book that attempted to build synergy lost these options. Units in the previous codex that were auto include lost some of their power (I think everyone expected that) but may of the less played options had at best a lateral shift in terms of effectiveness None of the new options change the feel of the new army or change how the army played in the previous edition.
In the old book, I usually ran either swarm nids or drop nids. My no-shooting drop nid army is not an option any more. I cant use the ymgarls or mycetic spores any longer. My swarm army, which actually included hormagaunts and carnifeces, looks like it stayed roughly the same size as before. Points drops were eaten up by adding options and points increases in other units. When I look at my army with the new book, I see largely the same army with less options and less flavor. Sything talons lost their only rules, Toxin and Adrenal glands on gaunts became prohibitively expensive to the point that they are no longer options, IB made running hordes of small gribblies even less attractive, as the death of a synapse creature can cause the unit to rout or attack itself.

Anyone who played tyranids in the previous edition could tell you the the problems that plagues the tyranid army. Small Gribblies were too expensive to be anything but small unit objective holders. Nids had very few options for dealing with tanks and flyers. Mid-sized monsters were too expensive for only t4, genestealers did not have the staying power to survive in an edition with overwatch, interceptor, and no assaults from the board edge. TMCs were too expensive for a WS 3 3-5 attack model, and died way too easily to most things in the game.

I feel that the reason that most Nid players are complaining, even though many have not had the opportunity to play the new book, is that a single read through will show anyone with an understanding of the previous codex that the fundamental issues that plagued the previous codex and weakened the army overall were not addressed. Yes many options dropped in cost, but I feel that those units ended up being costed what they should have been in the last codex, in addition to receiving a drop in effectiveness. In addition, alot of the options that myself and many tyranid players felt would give us options were not added. In an edition that is all about adding more choices and options to one's army, tyranid players are on the outside looking in and were not given anything to make up for the exclusion of BRB psychic powers, fortifications or allies.

@Eddtheman - Good post.

**lucasbuffalo**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.

**Melissia**

[edit: whoops, wrong thread ]

**The Shadow**

First up, I own the codex, I play nids and have done for about four years.

Now, at first glance, the codex is pretty bad. We've lost a lot of what was good about the old book (Spores, Doom, Ymargls, Biomancy and excellent Tervigons) and gained nothing much. However, the codex is still ok. It doesn't stand up to the best codexes of this edition (Eldar and Tau) but it's equally as good, if not better, than the worst ones (DA, CSM). The good thing, arguably, about the new dex is that there's no stand-out unit. Though the "good" units of the Codex aren't quite Wave Serpent level, there are a lot of them. Whereas, say, CSM's competitive lists are limited to Typhus/Zombies/Plague Marines/Heldrakes/Oblits, Tyranid lists will see a variety of different units which are all "fairly good".

I think Tyranids may struggle at tournaments, but in a friendly meta, they can quite easily stand up for themselves. If you're thinking of starting Tyranids, I'd still go for it. They're a good army, I think people are just disappointed because they were expecting something at the level of Eldar or Tau.

**Ravenous D**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."

3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."

I don't know. Spore pods and some ignores cover would have gone a long way. Keeping biomancy would have been helpful too. 3pt termagants would have off set tervigon nerfs. Doom of Malatai having a 24" SitW. Ymgarls ignoring overwatch.

Instead of adding options they took them away, and did nothing to fill the gaps or fix 2 of the worst rules the army has had for 10 years.

**Glaiceana**

I'm not sure but, isn't it possible for us to just not use the new codex and stick with the last one? It surely can't be called cheating, and I've seen a lot of non nid players feeling sorry for about it all, so if you play a game against someone, just say "oh and btw I'm going to use the old codex, is that ok?", figured this would work, but I don't know.

**lucasbuffalo**

Glaiceana wrote:
I'm not sure but, isn't it possible for us to just not use the new codex and stick with the last one? It surely can't be called cheating, and I've seen a lot of non nid players feeling sorry for about it all, so if you play a game against someone, just say "oh and btw I'm going to use the old codex, is that ok?", figured this would work, but I don't know.

People were pretty viciously against allowing that with GK and Sisters if I remember correctly. I'd imagine in this case, where people wish to play an older codex due to it being more powerful, they'd be even moreso against it. Same question also popped up and was shot down by players wanting to use the old 'Nid dex when the 5th edition one came out.

Waiting for Squats to come back and "Squat" the nids.

**Melissia**

A lot of people raged at sisters players for suggesting the idea, so yeah, I also doubt it.

**Ravenous D**

Glaiceana wrote:
I'm not sure but, isn't it possible for us to just not use the new codex and stick with the last one? It surely can't be called cheating, and I've seen a lot of non nid players feeling sorry for about it all, so if you play a game against someone, just say "oh and btw I'm going to use the old codex, is that ok?", figured this would work, but I don't know.

Use the 3rd ed rulebook army list.

Tyrants were 80pts and you had to roll morale checks to charge them or you fell back.

lictors were ICs

Genestealers ignored armour saves (not power weapons, just flat out ignored armour saves)

The whole army had the ability to deepstrike. And you could make all fast, troops and elites infiltrate.

Fexes were 90pts and better stats then now.