Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How do you make considerations for moving trays? Back when I played fantasy in the 90s they had only just started showing themselves, but most people didn't use them to avoid the area it took up beyond the edge of the bases.
People either moved every single rank and file tile by itself, or very commonly would use slips of paper as moving trays.

Today I (rightly) don't see anyone going about it backwards like that. Moving trays are commonplace in every single place I've seen fantasy played.

But what considerations do you make for it? Do you do totalitarian measures of all distances from the base rather than the tray?
that would mean among other things:
shots that could reach a tray could fail to shoot at the unit.
charge distances would be measured from base to base rather than tray to tray
and after a combat, a unit winning the combat (assuming the enemy unit is wiped out or otherwise removed) would need to reconcile the distance of both his and his enemy's tray edges to make sure he measures everything from where his unit *should* have stood had the trays not been in the way.

Or do you measure everything from the trays?
That would mean a unit is larger and easier to hit be templates.
Deployment would be slightly pushed back as trays could not lap over the edge of the deployment zone
mouvering the unit could result in not being able to wheel around and end up in combat because of obstacles where a unit without a tray could.

Or do you just sort of allow for half an inch of leeway in every situation to allow for certain flexibility?

The rules always state to measure from the models, so that's what you do. The movement trays are 'invisible' as far as the rules are concerned.

The only time it ever becomes an issue is during pursuit since, as you pointed out, the movement tray(s) put a small but potentially significant amount of distance between units.

In our group we ignore this distance as it's rarely more than 3/8" between the two movement trays... and given that many units can't get into B2B contact with each other due to overhanging weapons and what-not, separating them by about the same distance anyway.

I always ignore the trays themselves when measuring distances.

The distance difference in melee is negligible and ignored. Its within the margin of error for anything I might want to do.

It doesnt matter if you measure from front of tray or from base as long as you do it consistently.

JWhex wrote:
It doesnt matter if you measure from front of tray or from base as long as you do it consistently.

You could also play using cm instead of inches as long as you do it consistently, but if your opponent does it differently it wouldn't be the same thing anymore. But would you let it slip because you don't consider it a large enough thing to have any effect on the way you play the game?

And my experience has been that most people tend to use what has been mentioned; you measure from bases, but allow the tray between units in melee. That's not entirely consistent, although it is an exception that could be said to be used consistently.

I'm not really trying to ask which is the right way, though. I'm more interested in what way most people play.

 Purifier wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It doesnt matter if you measure from front of tray or from base as long as you do it consistently.

You could also play using cm instead of inches as long as you do it consistently, but if your opponent does it differently it wouldn't be the same thing anymore. But would you let it slip because you don't consider it a large enough thing to have any effect on the way you play the game?

And my experience has been that most people tend to use what has been mentioned; you measure from bases, but allow the tray between units in melee. That's not entirely consistent, although it is an exception that could be said to be used consistently.

I'm not really trying to ask which is the right way, though. I'm more interested in what way most people play.

Your logic is flawed. If I measure consistently from trays and my opponent measures consistently from bases it makes no difference whereas if i use inches and my opponent uses cm the difference is huge.

Anyway its not really in the top 1000 whfb game concerns where i play.

JWhex wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It doesnt matter if you measure from front of tray or from base as long as you do it consistently.

You could also play using cm instead of inches as long as you do it consistently, but if your opponent does it differently it wouldn't be the same thing anymore. But would you let it slip because you don't consider it a large enough thing to have any effect on the way you play the game?

And my experience has been that most people tend to use what has been mentioned; you measure from bases, but allow the tray between units in melee. That's not entirely consistent, although it is an exception that could be said to be used consistently.

I'm not really trying to ask which is the right way, though. I'm more interested in what way most people play.

Your logic is flawed. If I measure consistently from trays and my opponent measures consistently from bases it makes no difference whereas if i use inches and my opponent uses cm the difference is huge.

Anyway its not really in the top 1000 whfb game concerns where i play.

The logic isn't flawed. It's hyperbolic, but it isn't flawed. You can't say it makes no difference. It clearly does make a difference. You could say it makes *virtually* no difference, but it by definition does make a difference. True, not a large enough one to make most people care about it, but that was what I was interested in. I was wondering how many people *did* see it as something that affects the game.

I've made some custom moving trays, and they do have a distinct edge. I don't see it as making any notable difference really, but I was wondering what the general consensus was. You can see them below.

Oooh nice. I like the sewer theme.

So much better than mine; I just use plasticard or foam board, some clipped off sprues and call it a day

Anyway, I generally do all of my measuring from the base itself. I tend to ignore the tray.

Movement trays are never used for the purposes of measurement etc. That's not a matter of opinion, it's da rules. As Vulkan points out, the rules always state to measure from the models, so that's what you do.

 The Shadow wrote:
Movement trays are never used for the purposes of measurement etc. That's not a matter of opinion, it's da rules. As Vulkan points out, the rules always state to measure from the models, so that's what you do.

You should also move the models into base to base contact according to the rules, but that is not being done, yes?

 Purifier wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Movement trays are never used for the purposes of measurement etc. That's not a matter of opinion, it's da rules. As Vulkan points out, the rules always state to measure from the models, so that's what you do.

You should also move the models into base to base contact according to the rules, but that is not being done, yes?

No, it shouldn't really. However, moving models without movement trays (or taking them off before contact) is extremely time consuming, so people bend the rules this little bit (see Vulkan's example again) and occasionally work around it, if it matter, i.e. in regards to pursuit distance. However, measuring arcs/distances from and to the bases requires no such time consuming effort. You simply move that tape measure forward that fraction of an inch.

At the end of the day though, if you're playing friendly games, it won't matter a great deal, so long as you keep it consistent throughout the game.

 The Shadow wrote:
Movement trays are never used for the purposes of measurement etc. That's not a matter of opinion, it's da rules. As Vulkan points out, the rules always state to measure from the models, so that's what you do.

Not to be nitpicky, but it's Vulcan (as in the Roman god of volcanoes and the forge) and not Vulkan (the 40K character).

 The Shadow wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Movement trays are never used for the purposes of measurement etc. That's not a matter of opinion, it's da rules. As Vulkan points out, the rules always state to measure from the models, so that's what you do.

You should also move the models into base to base contact according to the rules, but that is not being done, yes?

No, it shouldn't really. However, moving models without movement trays (or taking them off before contact) is extremely time consuming, so people bend the rules this little bit (see Vulkan's example again) and occasionally work around it, if it matter, i.e. in regards to pursuit distance. However, measuring arcs/distances from and to the bases requires no such time consuming effort. You simply move that tape measure forward that fraction of an inch.

At the end of the day though, if you're playing friendly games, it won't matter a great deal, so long as you keep it consistent throughout the game.

Yeah, I am aware that while one is easy to do the other creates a mess of the table, but your reasoning seemed to be that an absolutism of "it's in the rulebook, so you have to do it." which is clearly not true.

Again, I am not saying one way is better or more right than another, I am simply asking what you do.
As such, I will advocate for the devil against anyone that claims a certain way is the right way. I'm not trying to argue against your way of doing things, but rather against the absolutism of discarding the other ways of doing it.

Also, I think most people agree (from what I've seen here,) and I do too, that this is a very very small issue, and most people will not see it as an issue at all. Which is exactly what I was hoping for. But being a 40k player, I know that some things that should be waved away are often not. The game can stop for several minutes to discuss how many people have been hit by a template because one guy seems to maybe be hit by a sliver but you can't really hold the template still enough to make it 100% accurate.

That's why I set the template down where it scatters and let my opponent count the hits. If he feels the overwhelming need to flagrantly cheat, that just fuels my desire to beat his cheating backside in spite of his cheating.

But thus far I haven't had any problems with people cheating it (at least not noticeably) so it's a non-issue for me.

JWhex wrote:
It doesnt matter if you measure from front of tray or from base as long as you do it consistently.

This is how we play in my area. If someone measures from the front of the tray; as long as they do it consistently every time from deployment, till the games end. It wont matter as it would be the same if someone measured from the base consistently from the beginning. As was mentioned though, the player has to be consistent the whole game.

Why would you not just measure from the model all the time?That's how it is supposed to be done. Why change it?

TCWarRoom wrote:
Why would you not just measure from the model all the time?That's how it is supposed to be done. Why change it?

and do you move models after resolved combat to reflect where they should actually be standing if there were no movement trays in the way? It is after all where they "are supposed to stand, why change it?"
It sounds easy when you say it like something that is clearly either black or white, but when you start thinking about how you actually are already making concessions, you realise it is actually grey.