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I'm curious about when synapse actually happens.

For example, it mentions start of the turn. When is that? Before movement? It seems in the rulebook that there isn't a before movement PHASE, there's just the movement phase. That's when your turn starts. So reserves, psychic powers, and synapse are all happening at the start of the turn. Being that it's the tyranid player's turn, can't they decide what order to do things in?

That being the case, can't they start the turn by casting Dominion on things just out of synapse range to bring them INTO synapse range? Or deepstrike a tyranid warrior brood or a trygon prime to create a synapse bubble?

We've already discussed the opportunities for units that get shot to go to ground to avoid IB, but that of course requires the enemy to shoot at them.

Reserves and blessings are simultaneous, therefore anything else that is start of movement / turn must also be, and you can decide the order.

That's true, but remember that the old FAQ specified that IB happened prior to Reserves arriving.
Not that it will change, but it might.

I suppose we will need another FAQ.

Regardless of the reserves thing, I think it's at the same time as things like blessings, giving a chance to cast catalyst before things get bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And by catalyst I mean dominion.

Synapse has the nice benefit of being an "immediate effect". So anything that comes in to the effect range of Synapse is immediately under the effect of Synapse. IB behavior is a little different, don't have the new codex handy so I am not sure if Synapse will cancel IB the same turn it happens or only at the start of turn if there is synapse in range.

Synapse is checked at the start of the turn, so a unit that moves out of synapse range later in the turn doesn't immediately succumb to IB, and one out of it at the start must check.

But don't blessings also get cast at the start of the turn?

So couldn't a unit 13" away get spared the IB roll by someone casting Dominion at the start of the turn?

 Spellbound wrote:
But don't blessings also get cast at the start of the turn?

So couldn't a unit 13" away get spared the IB roll by someone casting Dominion at the start of the turn?

Yes.

I agree. IB, Reserves and Blessings all occur at the start of the turn. I can choose to do reserves first then blessings then IB to get as much Snyapse on the board as needed. Until they FAQ it.

They may not even need to FAQ it.

IB says: "...must take a Leadership test unless they are:...arrived from Reserve this turn." Can't determine if these conditions apply until after Reserves have been rolled. Seems IB requires you to roll after Reserves.

That being said. Rolling for Reserves and placing them on the table are 2 distinct steps. Moving on, Deep Striking, etc. are done during the Movement phase, not at the start of the turn. Casting Dominion will help, but bringing something on the table wouldn't help you.

Nice catch.

Angelic wrote:
They may not even need to FAQ it.

IB says: "...must take a Leadership test unless they are:...arrived from Reserve this turn." Can't determine if these conditions apply until after Reserves have been rolled. Seems IB requires you to roll after Reserves.

That being said. Rolling for Reserves and placing them on the table are 2 distinct steps. Moving on, Deep Striking, etc. are done during the Movement phase, not at the start of the turn. Casting Dominion will help, but bringing something on the table wouldn't help you.

Except for the fact that outflank rolls are also at the start of the turn and you don't roll until the unit comes on the board, which means moving on from reserves is still part of the start of the turn.

 Happyjew wrote:

Angelic wrote:
They may not even need to FAQ it.

IB says: "...must take a Leadership test unless they are:...arrived from Reserve this turn." Can't determine if these conditions apply until after Reserves have been rolled. Seems IB requires you to roll after Reserves.

That being said. Rolling for Reserves and placing them on the table are 2 distinct steps. Moving on, Deep Striking, etc. are done during the Movement phase, not at the start of the turn. Casting Dominion will help, but bringing something on the table wouldn't help you.

Except for the fact that outflank rolls are also at the start of the turn and you don't roll until the unit comes on the board, which means moving on from reserves is still part of the start of the turn.

Rolling for Outflank and moving on the table are different timing. Rolling is done at start of turn, moving is done during Movement Phase. You have to roll IB before movement.

Angelic wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Angelic wrote:
They may not even need to FAQ it.

IB says: "...must take a Leadership test unless they are:...arrived from Reserve this turn." Can't determine if these conditions apply until after Reserves have been rolled. Seems IB requires you to roll after Reserves.

That being said. Rolling for Reserves and placing them on the table are 2 distinct steps. Moving on, Deep Striking, etc. are done during the Movement phase, not at the start of the turn. Casting Dominion will help, but bringing something on the table wouldn't help you.

Except for the fact that outflank rolls are also at the start of the turn and you don't roll until the unit comes on the board, which means moving on from reserves is still part of the start of the turn.

Rolling for Outflank and moving on the table are different timing. Rolling is done at start of turn, moving is done during Movement Phase. You have to roll IB before movement.

Absolutely incorrect.
You roll for outflank when you move onto the table.
Which is considered (according to the rules) simultaneous with the Reserve rolls.
Which is simultaneous with casting blessings.

Angelic,
Not this argument again, it has been proven incorrect so many times by using a simple 'time-line argument:'
The 'start of the turn/movement phase' only ends when there is no more rules triggering at that point in the time line.

When a unit arrives from reserves it MUST move all the way onto the table, there is no freedom to delay till another point in the time-line. Therefore, once we have rolled to confirm which units are arriving that turn, we then trigger the rest of the sequence found within this rule as well. This sequence involves moving the model onto the table without containing any instructions informing us that this part of the sequence is being done outside of the 'start of the movement/turn' timing the rest of the Rule triggers at.

If 'movement' is all it takes to trigger the 'end of the start of the turn' then we have a big problem if multiple reserves are arriving:
We will have a bunch of models still off the table after the first one moves, and only have permission to move them onto the table at the start of the Turn which has passed by your argument....
So what happens to them?

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Angelic wrote:
They may not even need to FAQ it.

IB says: "...must take a Leadership test unless they are:...arrived from Reserve this turn." Can't determine if these conditions apply until after Reserves have been rolled. Seems IB requires you to roll after Reserves.

That being said. Rolling for Reserves and placing them on the table are 2 distinct steps. Moving on, Deep Striking, etc. are done during the Movement phase, not at the start of the turn. Casting Dominion will help, but bringing something on the table wouldn't help you.

Except for the fact that outflank rolls are also at the start of the turn and you don't roll until the unit comes on the board, which means moving on from reserves is still part of the start of the turn.

Rolling for Outflank and moving on the table are different timing. Rolling is done at start of turn, moving is done during Movement Phase. You have to roll IB before movement.

Absolutely incorrect.
You roll for outflank when you move onto the table.
Which is considered (according to the rules) simultaneous with the Reserve rolls.
Which is simultaneous with casting blessings.

It is not absolutely incorrect.

Reserves, BRB: "Each model's move..."

Models have a Fall back move, an Assault move and a move during the Movement phase. What's the models beginning of turn move as you allege and what page is that found?

Further, Deep Strike is also included in the Reserve rules and Deep Strike says: "In the movement phase during which they arrive..."

Additionally, the FAQ states:

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls,Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

Only the rolls are simultaneous, the move is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Angelic,
Not this argument again, it has been proven incorrect so many times by using a simple 'time-line argument:'
The 'start of the turn/movement phase' only ends when there is no more rules triggering at that point in the time line.

When a unit arrives from reserves it MUST move all the way onto the table, there is no freedom to delay till another point in the time-line. Therefore, once we have rolled to confirm which units are arriving that turn, we then trigger the rest of the sequence found within this rule as well. This sequence involves moving the model onto the table without containing any instructions informing us that this part of the sequence is being done outside of the 'start of the movement/turn' timing the rest of the Rule triggers at.

If 'movement' is all it takes to trigger the 'end of the start of the turn' then we have a big problem if multiple reserves are arriving:
We will have a bunch of models still off the table after the first one moves, and only have permission to move them onto the table at the start of the Turn which has passed by your argument....
So what happens to them?

You move all of the units that arrived at anytime during your movement phase just as any other unit.

Angelic wrote:
[It is not absolutely incorrect.

Reserves, BRB: "Each model's move..."

Models have a Fall back move, an Assault move and a move during the Movement phase. What's the models beginning of turn move as you allege and what page is that found?

Further, Deep Strike is also included in the Reserve rules and Deep Strike says: "In the movement phase during which they arrive..."

Additionally, the FAQ states:

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls,Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

Only the rolls are simultaneous, the move is not.

You ignored the most important rule you could have quoted - and that I mentioned.

p40 wrote:When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves,

So You roll for Reserves. That means the model arrives. When it arrives, you roll the Outflank roll - note that this is simultaneous due to the FAQ you quoted.
So what exactly happens when you arrive from Reserves?

p124 wrote:When Reserves arrive, the player picks anyone of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

So when Reserves arrive, Outflank is rolled. Not at some point before or after. When Reserves arrive they are deployed and move on.

Since we know that Reserve rolls and Outflank rolls are simultaneous, and you make the outflank rolls when you arrive, and when you arrive you move on, we know that as far as the rules are concerned Reserve rolls are simultaneous with moving on.

In addition, models don't have a "Fall Back move" - they fall back when it's their turn to move in the Movement phase (unless I'm misunderstanding you).

You move all of the units that arrived at anytime during your movement phase just as any other unit.

The actual rules prove this statement incorrect - I've quoted them above.

Interesting how they bold 'in the movement phase' as if the start of the movement phase/turn is somehow outside of the movement phase....

The timing is clear on these things, units Arrive from Reserve during the start of the turn/movement phase because the Rule state that they do as one of the first sentences we see. This means the entire sequence occurs during that moment in the time line, including the instructions informing us to move the model onto the table, unless otherwise stated in the Rule itself. The act of moving the models onto the table doesn't some how end the 'start of the turn/movement phase,' simply because there is nothing in the instructions that state the timing ends. Therefore the time-line still reads Start of the Movement Phase till the last 'start of the Turn/Movement phase' rule has been evoked and resolved.

So, while it is true Normal movement doesn't occur at this point in the time-line it isn't because movement is forbidden during the 'start of the turn/movement phase.' It is simply because Normal Movement lacks instructions telling us to do it during this point in the time line, so it as to wait for more important rules to resolve first. Start of the Turn/any phase are simply instructions informing us to resolve the rule first, nothing more, and until all rules with this sentence are resolved we do not move off the 'Start of the Turn/phase.' Unless one of the rule also states immedately, giving it even higher priority on the time-line, then the player who's turn it is decides which rule to resolve first... to completion.

rigeld2 wrote:


In addition, models don't have a "Fall Back move" - they fall back when it's their turn to move in the Movement phase (unless I'm misunderstanding you).

Failed morale check in the opponent's shooting phase. So, my point is that movement has discrete values (i.e., 2d6, 6", Flat Out, etc.) depending on type and phase. There is no "beginning of turn" value for any model in the game.

"Arriving from Reserves" is not simultaneous with the "Start of Turn". Reserve Rolls and Outflank rolls do because of the FAQ. "Arriving from Reserves" has two parts, one which is at the start of the turn and one during the Movement phase.

But these words can be found as part of the sequence being used to move them onto the battlefield:
The entire rule is called 'Arriving from Reserves' and it begins with 'At the start of turn....'

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


In addition, models don't have a "Fall Back move" - they fall back when it's their turn to move in the Movement phase (unless I'm misunderstanding you).

Failed morale check in the opponent's shooting phase. So, my point is that movement has discrete values (i.e., 2d6, 6", Flat Out, etc.) depending on type and phase. There is no "beginning of turn" value for any model in the game.

Since "beginning of turn" is the same as "beginning of the movement phase" and Reserves specify

Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal.

I still don't get your point.

Nothing to address my other points? Willing to admit you were wrong?

JinxDragon wrote:
Interesting how they bold 'in the movement phase' as if the start of the movement phase/turn is somehow outside of the movement phase....

The timing is clear on these things, units Arrive from Reserve during the start of the turn/movement phase because the Rule state that they do as one of the first sentences we see. This means the entire sequence occurs during that moment in the time line, including the instructions informing us to move the model onto the table, unless otherwise stated in the Rule itself. The act of moving the models onto the table doesn't some how end the 'start of the turn/movement phase,' simply because there is nothing in the instructions that state the timing ends. Therefore the time-line still reads Start of the Movement Phase till the last 'start of the Turn/Movement phase' rule has been evoked and resolved.

So, while it is true Normal movement doesn't occur at this point in the time-line it isn't because movement is forbidden during the 'start of the turn/movement phase.' It is simply because Normal Movement lacks instructions telling us to do it during this point in the time line, so it as to wait for more important rules to resolve first. Start of the Turn/any phase are simply instructions informing us to resolve the rule first, nothing more, and until all rules with this sentence are resolved we do not move off the 'Start of the Turn/phase.' Unless one of the rule also states immedately, giving it even higher priority on the time-line, then the player who's turn it is decides which rule to resolve first... to completion.

Incorrect, the only thing included in the rule that says it is done at the start of turn is the roll. The only thing that the FAQ says occurs simultaneous are the rolls, not the movement. The FAQ doesn't say "Arriving from Reserves", only Reserve Rolls.

Angelic,
Why are you stopping mid-rule without instructions stating to do so?

rigeld2 wrote:


Nothing to address my other points? Willing to admit you were wrong?

No. I did in an edit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Angelic,
Why are you stopping mid-rule without instructions stating to do so?

Stopping?

The rule says:

"At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 or each unit being held in reserve- these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn."

There is no stopping. The rule applies for the turn and has effects continuing through all phases of the turn. It determines how you move in the movement phase, the prohibition on assault, etc. "Arriving from Reserves" applies continuously.

Angelic wrote:
"Arriving from Reserves" is not simultaneous with the "Start of Turn". Reserve Rolls and Outflank rolls do because of the FAQ. "Arriving from Reserves" has two parts, one which is at the start of the turn and one during the Movement phase.

At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls.

We know that Reserve Rolls are done at the start of the turn.
We know that Outflank Rolls are simultaneous with Reserve Rolls.
We know that Outflank Rolls are done when units arrive from Reserve.
We know that when Reserves arrive they must move on fully.

Reserves arrive is by definition simultaneous with rolling for Reserves. Using rules I've quoted.
Please show rules support for them arriving later in the turn as you've asserted.

Angelic:
The rule contains a great deal more instructions then just Rolling a die, so why are you stopping after the Roll?

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
"Arriving from Reserves" is not simultaneous with the "Start of Turn". Reserve Rolls and Outflank rolls do because of the FAQ. "Arriving from Reserves" has two parts, one which is at the start of the turn and one during the Movement phase.

At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls.

We know that Reserve Rolls are done at the start of the turn.
We know that Outflank Rolls are simultaneous with Reserve Rolls.
We know that Outflank Rolls are done when units arrive from Reserve.
We know that when Reserves arrive they must move on fully.

Reserves arrive is by definition simultaneous with rolling for Reserves. Using rules I've quoted.
Please show rules support for them arriving later in the turn as you've asserted.

The continuation of the rule you quoted: "If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Angelic:
The rule contains a great deal more instructions then just Rolling a die, so why are you stopping after the Roll?

Again, why do you say "stopping"? Nobody is stopping anything. It only tells you to roll the die at the start of the turn. It tells you that the unit arrives this turn, not immediately. When does a unit move during this turn? In the movement phase. When can't it assault because it arrives? This turn. Again, I didn't stop anything.

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
"Arriving from Reserves" is not simultaneous with the "Start of Turn". Reserve Rolls and Outflank rolls do because of the FAQ. "Arriving from Reserves" has two parts, one which is at the start of the turn and one during the Movement phase.

At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls.

We know that Reserve Rolls are done at the start of the turn.
We know that Outflank Rolls are simultaneous with Reserve Rolls.
We know that Outflank Rolls are done when units arrive from Reserve.
We know that when Reserves arrive they must move on fully.

Reserves arrive is by definition simultaneous with rolling for Reserves. Using rules I've quoted.
Please show rules support for them arriving later in the turn as you've asserted.

The continuation of the rule you quoted: ". If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn."

Which is irrelevant as it doesn't disprove literally any other rule I've quoted.
Do you disagree with any of the sentences in the quote starting with "We know..."? If so, which one and why? I've provided rules quotes that support all of them.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
"Arriving from Reserves" is not simultaneous with the "Start of Turn". Reserve Rolls and Outflank rolls do because of the FAQ. "Arriving from Reserves" has two parts, one which is at the start of the turn and one during the Movement phase.

At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls.

We know that Reserve Rolls are done at the start of the turn.
We know that Outflank Rolls are simultaneous with Reserve Rolls.
We know that Outflank Rolls are done when units arrive from Reserve.
We know that when Reserves arrive they must move on fully.

Reserves arrive is by definition simultaneous with rolling for Reserves. Using rules I've quoted.
Please show rules support for them arriving later in the turn as you've asserted.

The continuation of the rule you quoted: ". If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn."

Which is irrelevant as it doesn't disprove literally any other rule I've quoted.
Do you disagree with any of the sentences in the quote starting with "We know..."? If so, which one and why? I've provided rules quotes that support all of them.

I thought it would be obvious, but, I disagree with:

"We know that when Reserves arrive they must move on fully." Or, at least what I believe your implication is. "Arriving" does not begin and end at the start of turn. There is nothing in the rule that says it does. It has rules that extend beyond the start of turn and even the movement phase. The unit must move on fully during its movement phase. Its movement phase occurs during the turn in which it "arrives" from Reserves.

Angelic,
Reaching an end of a paragraph doesn't mean you reached the end of the Rule itself.

In this case we have a single Rule being reviewed, called 'Arriving From Reserves' and it contains many different paragraphs filled with instructions. The first few paragraphs inform us when the Rule triggers, Start of the Turn, and then go ahead to explain how we determine which unit has permission to arrive. The next few paragraphs go ahead to inform us how the unit arrives onto the battle field. It then finishes with paragraphs explaining some additional restrictions placed on models that have Arrived from Reserves. None of these paragraphs contain instructions telling us to resolve any other rules in the middle of the sequence. The fifth even goes on to state that, once you have finished with Arriving from Reserves, only then do you have permission to do actions which fall outside of the 'Start of the Turn/Movement Phase' period. Of course, if you have another rule which triggers first it still has to be resolved first.

The movement in and of itself does not automatically stop the 'Start of the Turn/Movement Phase' timing.