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Angelic wrote:
I thought it would be obvious, but, I disagree with:

"We know that when Reserves arrive they must move on fully." Or, at least what I believe your implication is. "Arriving" does not begin and end at the start of turn. There is nothing in the rule that says it does. It has rules that extend beyond the start of turn and even the movement phase. The unit must move on fully during its movement phase. Its movement phase occurs during the turn in which it "arrives" from Reserves.

Well, let's look at the rules:

p124 wrote:When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move fully onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge

Well, how do we know when a unit arrives? You're right - it seems like a grey area. I wonder if other rules can help us out.

p40 wrote:When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6

This is the Outflank Roll referenced in the FAQ.

So we know that Outflank Rolls are done when an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves. Agreed?
We know that units move on when they arrive from Reserve. Agreed?
We know that Outflank Rolls and Reserve Rolls are simultaneous. Agreed?
Since we know that Outflank Rolls and Reserve Rolls are simultaneous, anything that happens when Outflank Rolls are done is simultaneous with Reserve Rolls. Agreed?
Since we know the above, we know that Outflanking units arriving from Reserve are simultaneous with the the Reserve Roll. Agreed?
We have no permission to treat Outflanking units in a special manner. Agreed? (impossible to cite because you cannot cite a rule that doesn't exist)
Therefore when all units arrive from Reserve, the arrival is simultaneous with the Outflank and Reserve rolls. Agreed?

JinxDragon wrote:
Angelic,
Reaching an end of a paragraph doesn't mean you reached the end of the Rule itself.

Okay, if you insist on reading things this way and assuming that everything in the rule must be executed at the start of turn:

"When a Reserves unit arrives, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal."

It then goes on to describe how to move the units. This is all under "Arriving from Reserves."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:


Since we know the above, we know that Outflanking units arriving from Reserve are simultaneous with the the Reserve Roll. Agreed?
We have no permission to treat Outflanking units in a special manner. Agreed? (impossible to cite because you cannot cite a rule that doesn't exist)
Therefore when all units arrive from Reserve, the arrival is simultaneous with the Outflank and Reserve rolls. Agreed?

This is where I disagree. Outflanking units arriving are not simultaneous with Reserve rolls. The roll is, but not the entirety of "Outflank". Outflank moves are done as Reserve moves are done. Reserve moves are done in the movement phase before the rest of your other units move, but it is still in the movement phase. The "Arrive from Reserves" rule is not a rule that can be executed from beginning to end at the start of turn.

I do chose to read it that way, because that is how Rules as Written function on a time line:
Follow the Rule to completion then resolve the next Rule happening at the same point in the time-line.

JinxDragon wrote:
I do chose to read it that way, because that is how Rules as Written function on a time line.

Great. So if I have Reserves, I can move all of my units and then roll for Instinctive Behavior, because it tells me to move my other units before I reach the end of the rule. Oh, and in the Assault phase, I can charge. Because it only tells me I can't charge during the "start of turn".

I would need to take a closer look at the new Instinctive Behavior rule before I can answer that question, and that is a book I have yet to get my hands on. However, if the rule does state that you have permission to move other units as part of resolving this rule, then from a Rule as Written perspective I can not complain. Permission has been granted to move units at this point. It might just be another example of a very poorly worded Rule within a book filled with them, but it would be what is written.

As for the restrictions within the last paragraph of the Arriving from Reserve rule:
Notice the restriction has a duration of 'the entire game turn.' Though re-reading that section it does seem like 'abilities' are forbidden for the entire game turn while Special Rules are only limited if they also must occur during the start of the turn/movement phase. Luckily for us, Abilities is one of these poorly defined terms that rarely occurs within the body of a Rule and is often found in the more Fluffy parts of the text so it really has very little influence over the game.

Angelic wrote:
This is where I disagree. Outflanking units arriving are not simultaneous with Reserve rolls. The roll is, but not the entirety of "Outflank". Outflank moves are done as Reserve moves are done. Reserve moves are done in the movement phase before the rest of your other units move, but it is still in the movement phase. The "Arrive from Reserves" rule is not a rule that can be executed from beginning to end at the start of turn.

Outflanking rolls are done when outflanking units arrive. I quoted that rule - are you disagreeing that's true?
Outflanking rolls are simultaneous with Reserve rolls. That's in the FAQ. Are you disagreeing that's true?

If you don't disagree with either of those I'm not sure where your argument is. When outflankers arrive, you roll. Not before they arrive, or after they arrive, or before the models are put on the table and then the movement phase starts - when they arrive. That's all the rule says.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
This is where I disagree. Outflanking units arriving are not simultaneous with Reserve rolls. The roll is, but not the entirety of "Outflank". Outflank moves are done as Reserve moves are done. Reserve moves are done in the movement phase before the rest of your other units move, but it is still in the movement phase. The "Arrive from Reserves" rule is not a rule that can be executed from beginning to end at the start of turn.

Outflanking rolls are done when outflanking units arrive. I quoted that rule - are you disagreeing that's true?
Outflanking rolls are simultaneous with Reserve rolls. That's in the FAQ. Are you disagreeing that's true?

If you don't disagree with either of those I'm not sure where your argument is. When outflankers arrive, you roll. Not before they arrive, or after they arrive, or before the models are put on the table and then the movement phase starts - when they arrive. That's all the rule says.

My argument is, and where you are confused, is that Outflank and Arrive from Reserves does not begin and end with the roll of the die. Both of those rules comprise multiple steps and effects that persist through the entirety of the turn in which they arrive. Those two rules tell you what to do throughout the turn. They don't tell you to do everything within the rules at the start of the turn. If you subscribe to that, then you can move your entire army before you cast psychic powers so long as you have Reserves. The only thing in the rule that explicitly occurs at the start of turn is the roll. Everything else occurs in its proper place with the exception, that your Reserve units are moved first, but still in the Movement phase.

The roll happens *when* the units arrive. Agreed?

We need to get a baseline agreement.

Angelic - answer the questions, as that will show what your level of understanding of the rules involved in this is.

rigeld2 wrote:
The roll happens *when* the units arrive. Agreed?

We need to get a baseline agreement.

Yes, and so does moving in the movement phase, etc., because "that unit arrives this turn".

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The roll happens *when* the units arrive. Agreed?

We need to get a baseline agreement.

Yes, and so does moving in the movement phase, etc., because "that unit arrives this turn".

I'm sorry - could you quote the rule that says movement happens when units arrive from Reserve?
I can see where it says after they arrive, but not when.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The roll happens *when* the units arrive. Agreed?

We need to get a baseline agreement.

Yes, and so does moving in the movement phase, etc., because "that unit arrives this turn".

I'm sorry - could you quote the rule that says movement happens when units arrive from Reserve?
I can see where it says after they arrive, but not when.

"When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.
...
...
Each model's move is measured..."

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The roll happens *when* the units arrive. Agreed?

We need to get a baseline agreement.

Yes, and so does moving in the movement phase, etc., because "that unit arrives this turn".

I'm sorry - could you quote the rule that says movement happens when units arrive from Reserve?
I can see where it says after they arrive, but not when.

"When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.
...
...
Each model's move is measured..."

I must have misspoke - I know you didn't deliberately misunderstand me.
Quote the rule that "moving in the movement phase" happens when a unit arrives from Reserves. You know, as you said it does.
In other words - prove your statement that I bolded.

As we have put forth before:
Simply moving a model does not end the 'Start of the Turn/Movement Phase.'

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The roll happens *when* the units arrive. Agreed?

We need to get a baseline agreement.

Yes, and so does moving in the movement phase, etc., because "that unit arrives this turn".

I'm sorry - could you quote the rule that says movement happens when units arrive from Reserve?
I can see where it says after they arrive, but not when.

"When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.
...
...
Each model's move is measured..."

I must have misspoke - I know you didn't deliberately misunderstand me.
Quote the rule that "moving in the movement phase" happens when a unit arrives from Reserves. You know, as you said it does.
In other words - prove your statement that I bolded.

For simplicity I won't quote the entire Movement section, but as a permissive ruleset, you are only permitted to move during the 3 phases as specified by each section. The rules for Reserves don't override that. The only thing explicitly stated to occur at the start of the turn is the roll. The only thing explicitly allowed by the FAQ to occur at the start of turn are the rolls.

Angelic wrote:
For simplicity I won't quote the entire Movement section, but as a permissive ruleset, you are only permitted to move during the 3 phases as specified by each section. The rules for Reserves don't override that. The only thing explicitly stated to occur at the start of the turn is the roll. The only thing explicitly allowed by the FAQ to occur at the start of turn are the rolls.

Movement on from Reserves is permitted to happen when models arrive from Reserves (p124).
I've proven that arrival is simultaneous with rolling.

Prove otherwise. Use actual rules please.

Angelic,
Your argument is that we are only permitted to move during the Movement phase, so that movement must be occurring in the middle of the Movement phase?

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
For simplicity I won't quote the entire Movement section, but as a permissive ruleset, you are only permitted to move during the 3 phases as specified by each section. The rules for Reserves don't override that. The only thing explicitly stated to occur at the start of the turn is the roll. The only thing explicitly allowed by the FAQ to occur at the start of turn are the rolls.

Movement on from Reserves is permitted to happen when models arrive from Reserves (p124).
I've proven that arrival is simultaneous with rolling.

Prove otherwise. Use actual rules please.

No, you haven't. You have proven that arrival includes rolling. You also haven't proven that rolling is simultaneous with moving in from Reserves, because it can't be. If it were then you could choose to move before rolling. If moving in from Reserves isn't simultaneous with rolling for Reserves, then it can't be simultaneous with rolling for other start of turn abilities since rolling for Reserves has been explicitly stated as simultaneous with psychic powers, etc. by the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Angelic,
Your argument is that we are only permitted to move during the Movement phase, so that movement must be occurring in the middle of the Movement phase?

No, my argument is that we are only permitted to move in the Movement, Shooting and Assault phases. So, movement is done in one of those three phases unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Angelic,
Then your in luck, start of the turn is done during the Movement Phase, so a rule telling you to move at the start of the turn doesn't break your ideals.

Angelic - except you are told rolls for choosing which side you turn up when Outflanking are also simultaneous.

If you read the rules for Outflank you will note you roll for side, then move the unit on. You the roll for the NEXT unit outflanking,and move them on. And this is ALL simultaneous

So indeed you do move on at the start of the movement phase.

Angelic wrote:
No, you haven't. You have proven that arrival includes rolling.

Arrival includes rolling.
Rolling happens when? (At the start of turn)

You also haven't proven that rolling is simultaneous with moving in from Reserves, because it can't be. If it were then you could choose to move before rolling.

No, you can't. You aren't eligible to move on until you roll.

No, my argument is that we are only permitted to move in the Movement, Shooting and Assault phases. So, movement is done in one of those three phases unless explicitly stated otherwise.

I've never - ever - said otherwise.
Luckily the start of turn is also the start of the movement phase.

Angelic, honestly I do agree with you and do think that the FAQ is permission enough to create a break in the outflank rolls and reserve rolls. That is all we are given permission to do (rolls) and that movement from reserve is movement which means you are no longer at the start of the movement phase and cannot do anything else (psyhic powers etc) after moving. It is also how it is played in the UK tournies.


But you wont get any of these admitting that and RAW I dont think either is 100% clear thanks to a piss poor FAQ from GW and lack of any more recent ones is disappointing. Honestly it is not worth arguing this point on here. Although I do agree with the majority of statements the other posters here say, espically Rigeld, Nos and Jinx.

So you agree with the majority of what I say and yet you're somehow convinced the FAQ says something it doesn't?

I'm confused.

rigeld2 wrote:
So you agree with the majority of what I say and yet you're somehow convinced the FAQ says something it doesn't?

I'm confused.

What you guys usually say, just not on this subject Rigeld.

MarkyMark wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you agree with the majority of what I say and yet you're somehow convinced the FAQ says something it doesn't?

I'm confused.

What you guys usually say, just not on this subject Rigeld.

Mind explaining why you think the FAQ says that?
Because nothing in the words there even hint to a separation.
Or prove where I've gone wrong?

I have gone through it enough times pal, think its one we have to agree to disagree on!.

You've posted 3 times in this thread. You can disagree all you want but it's much better to support that disagreement.

I'm glad that it seems we are all in agreement that the blessing power Dominion is able to be used to help tyranids that are out of synapse at the start of their turn. That makes the primaris power actually quite useful for them.

Here's where the waters get muddy though:

p124 wrote:
When Reserves arrive, the player picks anyone of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

The thing is, in order to move onto the next arriving unit, you need to know which units are arriving this turn, which means all the rolls have already been made. It does in fact seem like the rolls get made at the start of the turn, but then things start moving like normal.

There is, though, it seems, a particular order. All reserve units have to come first, before any other models move.

I think the rolls, done at turn start, tell you which units are GOING to arrive this turn. Then, once you know, you begin moving them onto the table. So sadly, I don't think you can deep strike synapse creatures where they will be needed to save your gribblies from IB.

But with Dominion, it seems there's no debate. Glad to hear it.

Marky - WHICH Uk tourneys do it that way? Afaik none do, they follow the FAQ which places them all at the same time.

 Spellbound wrote:
I think the rolls, done at turn start, tell you which units are GOING to arrive this turn. Then, once you know, you begin moving them onto the table. So sadly, I don't think you can deep strike synapse creatures where they will be needed to save your gribblies from IB.

Yes - there is an order to things. But as far as the rules are concerned they're simultaneous. So you can decide to resolve Reserves first, Deep Strike, and then resolve IB.

But with Dominion, it seems there's no debate. Glad to hear it.

Until the inevitable FAQ.