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I was just thinking because every other Imperial organization has its roots before the heresy(unless their really sisters of silence), the sisters of battle are just the bodyguard of Vandire. Also given the amount that they seem to go against other imperial organizations and their idiotic hatred of pskers, space marines(as I recall they can't fight along side Astarte's anymore in tabletop, and anyone other than themselves makes them seem more likely to attack loyal forces than aliens or chaos.

Also worthy of consideration is that the Emperor said that Lorgars planets were not part of his Imperium.

They fight other Imperial factions because that is their job, to root out heresy and traitors. They dislike psykers because they bring the taint of the warp which brings chaos cults and the like. They dislike Marines because they're inhuman and don't worship the Emperor...and have a tendency to go traitor. Their role in the Imperium is to weed out the parts that are bad, so yes, they fight renegade chapters, traitor guard and the like.

The Eclisiarchy was formed after the Horus Heresy when the Emperor "Ascended the Golden Throne." It's still an Imperial institution but with an almost autonomous power. Look at the Byzantine Empire and the Orthodox church to see how that plays out in real life. And yes, they can fight along side Space Marines. Not sure where you heard that.

And what does Lorgar's planets have to do with it?

The Sisters of Battle can ally with SM. The Black Templars, especially, have a proud history with the Sisters. The ally matrix could be better, but it doesn't preclude their alliance.

The Sisterhood predates Vandire, they were an all-female cult venerating the Emperor on San Leor, called the Daughters of the Emperor, being something of a militant cult with its own special kung-fu before Vandire made them into the Brides of the Emperor.

The Emperor himself really isn't around to say that the Sisters aren't part of his plan... but their founder was escorted to the Golden Throne, itself, and walked away from it to cut Vandire's head off, after declaring him a heretic and a traitor.

Their hatred of psykers is not idiotic. If your initials are not GEoM, then you're not worthy of calling yourself a psyker.

The Ecclesiarchy is the results of a very popular Emperor-venerating cult with origins on Terra from the time of the GC and the Heresy, which was lucky enough to attract a very large number of faithful from the Imperial Army, which allowed them to cull their competitors. Though it did not exist in the form we know it in M41, the Ecclesiarchy is basically as old as the Imperium.

The idea of the Emperor being some militant atheist is kind of a ret-con... after all, the reason he had an issue with Lorgar is not because of the worshipping, but because building temples and things was taking too much time.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
(unless their really sisters of silence)

Nah. The Sisters started off as a reclusive cult on a fairly primitive world. Meanwhile the Sisters of Silence were an elite anti-psykers during the Horus heresy. The two don't really line up, and I think that people only draw the comparison in the first place because both are all-female and use power armour + bolters.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
the sisters of battle are just the bodyguard of Vandire.

Were. These days, they're the Ecclesiarchy's soldiers. And, at the start, they were a reclusive cult. They see their time as Vandire's bodyguards as something that they have to make up for, these days. The Order of the Valorous Heart especially is very penitent about it.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Also given the amount that they seem to go against other imperial organizations

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
makes them seem more likely to attack loyal forces than aliens or chaos.

Well, internal affairs is one of the Sisterhood's jobs! They do check other organisations for purity, and will attack if they find any signs of corruption. But they very much fight aliens and chaos a lot too, since those enemies are often doing things that the Ecclesiarchy doesn't like.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
and their idiotic hatred of pskers

Hardly idiotic, nor unique to them. Considering that psykers can become hosts or portals for Daemons, they're right to be wary of them. Also, the Imperium itself actively goes around rounding up every psyker it can find and either feeding them to the Emperor's soul or forcing them into service anyway.

I doubt that they'd be hostile to sanctioned psykers, though they'd likely still be wary of them. And, obviously, they have to tolerate Navigators.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
space marines

The Sisters and Marines have something of a love-hate thing. There is tension (due to many Astartes not worshiping Big E like the Sisters do), but the 2E SoB codex notes that the Sisters and Astartes have fought together quite a lot and have come to respect each other as warriors.

Also, the 6E Marine codex talks about how the Black Templars and Sisters actually get along very well, as the Templars also worship the Emperor and often fight alongside the Sisters.

GEoM

What?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

GEoM

What?

God Emperor of Mankind.

Woah what? I thought space marines worshiped the emperor? What do they do then?

Astartes worship the Emperor, but just as the greatest human every to have lived, not as a god.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Woah what? I thought space marines worshiped the emperor? What do they do then?

Heh, yeah, it's easy to get that impression, what with their yelling about heretics and having Chaplains. But most of them actually just revere him as the greatest of men and their creator.

Though some Marine Chapters do indeed worship him as a god. The foremost example would be the Black Templars. Also the Red Hunters (in a BL novel, at least).

Some do. Many do not. There's some contention on how many do, and from what Foundings.

 Psienesis wrote:
Some do. Many do not. There's some contention on how many do, and from what Foundings.

Do you know if there's any other specific examples besides the BT and RH?

 Troike wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Woah what? I thought space marines worshiped the emperor? What do they do then?

Heh, yeah, it's easy to get that impression, what with their yelling about heretics and having Chaplains. But most of them actually just revere him as the greatest of men and their creator.

Though some Marine Chapters do indeed worship him as a god. The foremost example would be the Black Templars. Also the Red Hunters (in a BL novel, at least).

Jeepers, well my eyes have been opened. I dont read much fluff at all so im not too up to date on many things haha. Wow so i can see why the faithful arent too fond of space marines then.

 Troike wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Woah what? I thought space marines worshiped the emperor? What do they do then?

Heh, yeah, it's easy to get that impression, what with their yelling about heretics and having Chaplains. But most of them actually just revere him as the greatest of men and their creator.

Though some Marine Chapters do indeed worship him as a god. The foremost example would be the Black Templars. Also the Red Hunters (in a BL novel, at least).

Which is a bad example, as the Templars don't worship Him as a god. I don't really care what drugs the guy took who wrote the Templars part of the C:SM, I remain true to the teachings of old. Worship and zealotry, yes, but a god? No.

 Weltenwolf wrote:
I remain true to the teachings of old. Worship and zealotry, yes, but a god? No.

Did their old fluff actually say that outright, though? I have seen some call that an assumption that people made. I'd be interested to see a quote from their codex that address this.

Anyway, regardless, I think it's appropriate. The massive amount of zeal and religious fervor that the Templars have (to the point where they had a shield of faith equivilant and claim to recieve visions from the Emperor) really does indicate a religious outlook. So I think I'll go with them worshiping him as a god.

 Troike wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Some do. Many do not. There's some contention on how many do, and from what Foundings.

Do you know if there's any other specific examples besides the BT and RH?

Well I, being the boring sod that I am, immediately fired up firefox and read through the long list of royalist space marine chapters on Lexicanum, and found the at least these 2 chapters worship the emperor on a level beyond simply as an ultra-mighty warrior: The Fire Angels, who follows the Imperial Creed closely, and the Red Hunters, which are said to worship the emperor as a god, amongst a rare few.

The sources are Warhammer 40,000: Compendium (which I don't have any copy of), and Space Marine Gallery (which I do not know any thing about). So feel free to check the sources if you will.

I also seem to recall reading about a space marine chapter that worships the Big E as a god, due to the tribal culture brought to the chapter from the chapter recruiting world... I suppose I'll update this post if I found out anything.

Interesting, thanks for the info!

The Fire Angels also seem to have some fluff in FW. The FW Chapter Tactics list talks about their zeal and links to the Ecclesiarchy and Sisters. No rule to make them Battle Brothers with the the AS, though :(

 Troike wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Some do. Many do not. There's some contention on how many do, and from what Foundings.

Do you know if there's any other specific examples besides the BT and RH?

The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld).

The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders".

Arguments can be made for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines.

The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed".

The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes.

The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious".

The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry".

The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp.

The Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch game, most definitely venerate the Emperor as a god.

Now, which factions exactly are supposed to be Imperial? If anything, the Ministorum is the only Imperial organization there is. Seriously, which other organization is Imperial.

Most worlds are subjects of the Imperium, they have their own cultures and have to accept off-world, Imperial practices.

The Imperial Guard regiments have all kinds of cultures and doctrines because they come from separate planets. They are just planetary armies and are products of their planets, the only thing that makes them "Imperial Guard" is leaving their planet to fight somewhere else.

The space marine chapters are sovereign from the Imperium. They are not Imperial.


The Ministorum are the primary Imperial organization. They run the Schola that train Storm Troopers, Commissars and staff for the Guard, Inquisitors for the Inquisition, and the clergy that indoctrinate the population to actually be Imperial instead of Mordian or Necromundan.





Even when space marines do not think the Emepror is a god, they usually worship him, the way someone would build temples to the Caesars or to the turkmenbashi.

To the Raven Guard, the Emperor is a distant figure, acknowledged as their founder and master of the galaxy, but who is not accorded the level or worship common amongst other Chapters. Corax is revered as their father and leader, worshipped as a man capable of making tough choices when the need was great.

I do not think that the Fire Angels professing the Creed is any kind of reason that they would be good allies for the Adepta.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Woah what? I thought space marines worshiped the emperor? What do they do then?

They've never worshiped him as a god except in minority. Astartes worship the GEOM as the greatest human to ever live and their ancestor, similar to how some religions worshiped their ancestors. They view him as the greatest man to ever live and their beloved ancestor, but as a man, not a god. There as some Chapters that do view him as a god however, the BT's especially coming to mind as previously mentioned, and I think the GK view him as a god as well, although I haven't read too much fluff on the GK's.

There's also individual marines, which is more common than whole chapters.

Yea, there's a literal handful of marines that worship Big E as a god. Marines are really one of the most diverse factions in the setting (in terms of if you'd rank them, at least), so you can usually find a chapter or five that does something the rest don't.

The Ecclesiarchy, while portrayed as a bad thing in most stories, is actually pretty darn vital to keeping the Imperium united and to getting new planets to join the Imperium. They do things like try to subvert chaos religions into becoming more benevolent ones (as brutal as the Imperial creed can sometimes get, it's still nicer on average than the average chaos cult) and send out tons of missionaries to go alongside crusades in order to convert conquered planets into the fold of the Imperium as seamlessly as possible.

....they certainly can get rather wasteful with the riches sometimes (understatement) but eh, that's state religion for ya.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, there's a literal handful of marines that worship Big E as a god. Marines are really one of the most diverse factions in the setting (in terms of if you'd rank them, at least), so you can usually find a chapter or five that does something the rest don't.

The Ecclesiarchy, while portrayed as a bad thing in most stories, is actually pretty darn vital to keeping the Imperium united and to getting new planets to join the Imperium. They do things like try to subvert chaos religions into becoming more benevolent ones (as brutal as the Imperial creed can sometimes get, it's still nicer on average than the average chaos cult) and send out tons of missionaries to go alongside crusades in order to convert conquered planets into the fold of the Imperium as seamlessly as possible.

....they certainly can get rather wasteful with the riches sometimes (understatement) but eh, that's state religion for ya.

Ummmmmm all governments of any kind a pretty wasteful of the money... nothing to do with religion.

But yes i agree, without it the imperium wouldnt be united to a single cause. The result? success.. mostly.

@Psienesis
Thanks for the info. That's actually quite a few.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I do not think that the Fire Angels professing the Creed is any kind of reason that they would be good allies for the Adepta.

I think they would. Obviously they'd get along better so there'd be less tension, but their interests would align more too. For example, while other Marine Chapters might not care if some supposedly holy relics were lost, the Fire Angels would.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, there's a literal handful of marines that worship Big E as a god. Marines are really one of the most diverse factions in the setting (in terms of if you'd rank them, at least), so you can usually find a chapter or five that does something the rest don't.

Indeed. For me, it's just a given that some Marines would have picked up the Imperial Creed.

 Troike wrote:
@Psienesis
Thanks for the info. That's actually quite a few.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I do not think that the Fire Angels professing the Creed is any kind of reason that they would be good allies for the Adepta.

I think they would. Obviously they'd get along better so there'd be less tension, but their interests would align more too. For example, while other Marine Chapters might not care if some supposedly holy relics were lost, the Fire Angels would.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, there's a literal handful of marines that worship Big E as a god. Marines are really one of the most diverse factions in the setting (in terms of if you'd rank them, at least), so you can usually find a chapter or five that does something the rest don't.

Indeed. For me, it's just a given that some Marines would have picked up the Imperial Creed.

Especially considering they were once human. Even with indoctrination, it should be damned hard to rub out propaganda blasted into their heads about the Emperor's holiness and status as a god since birth if they grew up in any 'civilized' planet such as a Hive World.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, there's a literal handful of marines that worship Big E as a god. Marines are really one of the most diverse factions in the setting (in terms of if you'd rank them, at least), so you can usually find a chapter or five that does something the rest don't.

The Ecclesiarchy, while portrayed as a bad thing in most stories, is actually pretty darn vital to keeping the Imperium united and to getting new planets to join the Imperium. They do things like try to subvert chaos religions into becoming more benevolent ones (as brutal as the Imperial creed can sometimes get, it's still nicer on average than the average chaos cult) and send out tons of missionaries to go alongside crusades in order to convert conquered planets into the fold of the Imperium as seamlessly as possible.

....they certainly can get rather wasteful with the riches sometimes (understatement) but eh, that's state religion for ya.

"Literal handful" if nearly a dozen Chapters named by the studio that I listed are "a handful".

Logically, any Chapter that recruits from a non-Feral world is most likely going to have members who venerate the Emperor as a god, simply because the people of this world are going to have had exposure to the Ecclesiarchy's teachings their entire lives... this is especially true for Fleet-based Chapters, who do not have a homeworld. Their recruits are coming from planets along the way, most of which will have Ecclesiarchal presences, and will have already indoctrinated the recruit into the ways of the Creed.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Now, which factions exactly are supposed to be Imperial? If anything, the Ministorum is the only Imperial organization there is. Seriously, which other organization is Imperial.

Most worlds are subjects of the Imperium, they have their own cultures and have to accept off-world, Imperial practices.

The Imperial Guard regiments have all kinds of cultures and doctrines because they come from separate planets. They are just planetary armies and are products of their planets, the only thing that makes them "Imperial Guard" is leaving their planet to fight somewhere else.

The space marine chapters are sovereign from the Imperium. They are not Imperial.


The Ministorum are the primary Imperial organization. They run the Schola that train Storm Troopers, Commissars and staff for the Guard, Inquisitors for the Inquisition, and the clergy that indoctrinate the population to actually be Imperial instead of Mordian or Necromundan.





Even when space marines do not think the Emepror is a god, they usually worship him, the way someone would build temples to the Caesars or to the turkmenbashi.

To the Raven Guard, the Emperor is a distant figure, acknowledged as their founder and master of the galaxy, but who is not accorded the level or worship common amongst other Chapters. Corax is revered as their father and leader, worshipped as a man capable of making tough choices when the need was great.

I do not think that the Fire Angels professing the Creed is any kind of reason that they would be good allies for the Adepta.

That's what an Empire is. For example: The Roman Empire isn't an all encompassing nation-state like we think of today. You had the central authority in Rome, but the people of the different areas were left to pretty much manage on their own. The Empire would come around once in a while, demand taxes and soldiers and then life would get back to normal. The Imperium of Man works about the same way. Each world is left semi-autonomous unless a main Imperial force enters and then its obey or die, but once they're gone, the people are ignored as long as they pay their tithes and don't cause trouble.

 MWHistorian wrote:
The Roman Empire isn't an all encompassing nation-state like we think of today. You had the central authority in Rome, but the people of the different areas were left to pretty much manage on their own. The Empire would come around once in a while, demand taxes and soldiers and then life would get back to normal. The Imperium of Man works about the same way. Each world is left semi-autonomous unless a main Imperial force enters and then its obey or die, but once they're gone, the people are ignored as long as they pay their tithes and don't cause trouble.

Sure, but who in the Imperium are the Romans? Who are the suzerains, the culture that produce full citizens of Rome who govern the acceded territories? In case of the Imperium, they are scholam-trained and servants of the Creed.

Sure, but who in the Imperium are the Romans?

Every civilized planet in the Imperium considers their local culture to be the "best" and "truest" example of Imperial culture.

 Psienesis wrote:

Sure, but who in the Imperium are the Romans?

Every civilized planet in the Imperium considers their local culture to be the "best" and "truest" example of Imperial culture.

But the people from Terra itself are probably the worst

Do people actually live on earth? Or is it a giant office building for administration purposes?

 Swastakowey wrote:
Do people actually live on earth? Or is it a giant office building for administration purposes?

Kinda sorta. It's pretty much a giant Washington D.C.