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WhAt it says in the title. Mainly for bogging units down. Typical VC core jobs.

Skeletons need to be about 40 strong, with hand weapons and shields. Zombies need to be at similar numbers, if not more, but the good thing about Zombies is that they can be resurrected really easily. Starting with a unit (or several) of 20 Zombies just to add to them with Invocation is a perfectly good idea. Then again, starting out with larger units is also viable. Depends on your playstyle, what else you're including in Core an how much money you're willing to spend on Zombies...

You don't want to "horde formation" either unit.
I tried a horde of zombies, boosted by mindrazor, and even at S10 from the vampire lord, they just can't land enough hits.

5 wide, and 8 to 10 deep is good.

As for zombies, watch out that you don't over-summon and run out of zombies. You might need them somewhere else later, and if they all end up someplace useless, you won't have the models to put down.

-Matt

Well, you don't ever want zombies in a horde.

With regard to skeletons, I wouldn't use a horde without at least 50 models.

Thing is though, it's not just about the numbers, it's about why you're running them as a horde in the first place. In general, hordes don't work with skeletons for the same reason spears don't - extra crappy attacks are still crappy attacks. So, if you want to do this, you *have* to have a plan to make their attacks worthwhile - e.g. a way to cast Mindrazor on them. Otherwise, there's really no point running them as a horde.

 vipoid wrote:
Well, you don't ever want zombies in a horde.

With regard to skeletons, I wouldn't use a horde without at least 50 models.

Thing is though, it's not just about the numbers, it's about why you're running them as a horde in the first place. In general, hordes don't work with skeletons for the same reason spears don't - extra crappy attacks are still crappy attacks. So, if you want to do this, you *have* to have a plan to make their attacks worthwhile - e.g. a way to cast Mindrazor on them. Otherwise, there's really no point running them as a horde.

I would entirely disagree with what you have said about zombies. Sure for MSU spam that applies but I run this list:


2500 point zombie-tide

Master necro: Lv 4, lore of vamps, gamblers armour:220
Master necro: Lv 3, lore of death, talisman of protection: 180
Necro: Lv2, lore of vamps, book of Arkhan: 125
Necro: Lv1, lore of vamps: 65

40 zombies: SB: 125
40 zombies: SB: 125
40 zombies: SB: 125
40 zombies: SB: 125
6 Dire Wolves: 48
6 Dire Wolves: 48

Corpse cart: unholy loadstone: 120
Corpse cart: unholy loadstone: 120
30 Grave Guard: FC, Great weapons: 390
6 Crypt Horrors: 228
1 Spirit Host: 45
1 Spirit Host: 45
1 Mortis Engine: Blasphemous Tome: 240

:2497

RageAgainstReality wrote:

I would entirely disagree with what you have said about zombies. Sure for MSU spam that applies but I run this list:

You say that you disagree... but you haven't said why.

What do you consider the benefit of running zombies as a horde, as oppose to a bus? What do they do in combat? What are you facing that gets destroyed by zombies?

Even with your list, couldn't those zombies be run as 5-wide busses?

 vipoid wrote:

RageAgainstReality wrote:

I would entirely disagree with what you have said about zombies. Sure for MSU spam that applies but I run this list:

You say that you disagree... but you haven't said why.

What do you consider the benefit of running zombies as a horde, as oppose to a bus? What do they do in combat? What are you facing that gets destroyed by zombies?

Even with your list, couldn't those zombies be run as 5-wide busses?

Being relatively new to fantasy my first question would be why not run them as a horde? I guess to minimise casualties? The main objective of this list though is to make zombies do something, hellish vigour, dans macabre and always strike first plus 6+ regen.

Zombies do do something. Their job is to take abuse from your opponent's heavy hitters so your grave guard or crypt horrors can get where you need them on your terms.

Time 2 Roll wrote:
Zombies do do something. Their job is to take abuse from your opponent's heavy hitters so your grave guard or crypt horrors can get where you need them on your terms.

Yes of course that is how I would play them in a more competitive environment. By do something I mean make an impact in combat. I know there are far better units to do it with but I would love to see if I could get zombies to work. My first game with the list is tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes.

RageAgainstReality wrote:
Being relatively new to fantasy my first question would be why not run them as a horde? I guess to minimise casualties?

Basically, yes.

Zombies are practically designed to die to everything - they have the worst WS and I in the game, T3 and no save of any kind.

They're equally useless at dealing damage back, since they hit virtually everything on 5s, have one attack each at S3 and no special rules to help them.

What this means is that they'll be giving up bucket-loads of CR. And, for each point they lose combat by (and they *will* lose combat) you lose another zombie.

Horde formation is a bad idea, because you're losing far more than you're gaining. Horde is used when you want to maximise the killing potential of a unit. Zombies have negligible killing potential, and so being in a horde does not help them. It does help your opponent though, since any of his horde units can get vastly more attacks against your zombies.

RageAgainstReality wrote:
The main objective of this list though is to make zombies do something, hellish vigour, dans macabre and always strike first plus 6+ regen.

Trouble is, you're fighting a losing battle on that front.

I mean, most enemy units will have at least WS3, so you're hitting them on 5s. That means, you've just lost 20 of your 30 horde attacks. Now, with your remaining 10, you're going to be wounding on 4s at best - so there go another 5 attacks. So, against a WS3 T3 enemy with no armour save, your 30 attacks have amounted to 5 wounds. Now, lets assume that said enemy was also in a horde of 40, so he's now down to 35. Well, he gets 30 attacks back, hitting on 3s (20 hits), wounding on 4s (10 wounds) and you save on 6s (~9 wounds). Zombies lose combat by 4, and so lose an additional 4 models from crumble. So, this hypothetical crap unit still has almost twice the damage output of your zombies.

Now, I'm fully aware that I did not include any magic buffs (though I did allow the zombies to strike first) - but nor did I include any enemy buffs (they get magic too ). The problem is that magic is not reliable - you might roll badly for power dice, you might get fail to cast, your enemy might pop a dispel scroll at a crucial turn. And, here's the clincher; you're relying on magic just to make your combat unit serviceable - without buffs, it's absolutely abysmal.

The one thing that might be interesting (assuming you can get spells off) would be battles against elves - since you can mitigate their ASF. Although, even then, I think I'd still want to run them 5-wide.

 vipoid wrote:

RageAgainstReality wrote:
Being relatively new to fantasy my first question would be why not run them as a horde? I guess to minimise casualties?

Basically, yes.

Zombies are practically designed to die to everything - they have the worst WS and I in the game, T3 and no save of any kind.

They're equally useless at dealing damage back, since they hit virtually everything on 5s, have one attack each at S3 and no special rules to help them.

What this means is that they'll be giving up bucket-loads of CR. And, for each point they lose combat by (and they *will* lose combat) you lose another zombie.

Horde formation is a bad idea, because you're losing far more than you're gaining. Horde is used when you want to maximise the killing potential of a unit. Zombies have negligible killing potential, and so being in a horde does not help them. It does help your opponent though, since any of his horde units can get vastly more attacks against your zombies.

RageAgainstReality wrote:
The main objective of this list though is to make zombies do something, hellish vigour, dans macabre and always strike first plus 6+ regen.

Trouble is, you're fighting a losing battle on that front.

I mean, most enemy units will have at least WS3, so you're hitting them on 5s. That means, you've just lost 20 of your 30 horde attacks. Now, with your remaining 10, you're going to be wounding on 4s at best - so there go another 5 attacks. So, against a WS3 T3 enemy with no armour save, your 30 attacks have amounted to 5 wounds. Now, lets assume that said enemy was also in a horde of 40, so he's now down to 35. Well, he gets 30 attacks back, hitting on 3s (20 hits), wounding on 4s (10 wounds) and you save on 6s (~9 wounds). Zombies lose combat by 4, and so lose an additional 4 models from crumble. So, this hypothetical crap unit still has almost twice the damage output of your zombies.

Now, I'm fully aware that I did not include any magic buffs (though I did allow the zombies to strike first) - but nor did I include any enemy buffs (they get magic too ). The problem is that magic is not reliable - you might roll badly for power dice, you might get fail to cast, your enemy might pop a dispel scroll at a crucial turn. And, here's the clincher; you're relying on magic just to make your combat unit serviceable - without buffs, it's absolutely abysmal.

The one thing that might be interesting (assuming you can get spells off) would be battles against elves - since you can mitigate their ASF. Although, even then, I think I'd still want to run them 5-wide.

You make valid points. I will take your advice and go kick some skaven butt. (Or should that be tail?)

I have found one reason to go wide with zombies.
My 7 caster list (3 master necromancers, 2 necromancers, 2 vampires), all of which spam invoke, has an issue.

Being 5 wide, they summon in ranks to the table edge too damn fast. If you have a unit in horde formation, they don't go as deep as fast.

In an average phase, I've been putting 100 zombies on the table. On a great phase, maybe 250 zombies.

With a pair of mortis engines, the main line is mostly 5+ regen, and few things can keep up with the summoning power. Offense, it's got almost nothing. 2 vampire heroes, the pulse from the mortis engines and the screams from the engines.
It's a fun change from the blender lists, and it does extremely well against elves (takes away their re-rolls, and T3 is squishy).

The final reason to go wide;
I take less hits from my own wind of undeath as I fling it through my own units and into the enemy. Taking 7D6 S3 hits on 5+ regen zombies is totally acceptable; especially if 2 units of the enemy is taking several D6 of S3 no armor hits.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I have found one reason to go wide with zombies.
My 7 caster list (3 master necromancers, 2 necromancers, 2 vampires), all of which spam invoke, has an issue.

Being 5 wide, they summon in ranks to the table edge too damn fast. If you have a unit in horde formation, they don't go as deep as fast.

In an average phase, I've been putting 100 zombies on the table. On a great phase, maybe 250 zombies.

With a pair of mortis engines, the main line is mostly 5+ regen, and few things can keep up with the summoning power. Offense, it's got almost nothing. 2 vampire heroes, the pulse from the mortis engines and the screams from the engines.
It's a fun change from the blender lists, and it does extremely well against elves (takes away their re-rolls, and T3 is squishy).

The final reason to go wide;
I take less hits from my own wind of undeath as I fling it through my own units and into the enemy. Taking 7D6 S3 hits on 5+ regen zombies is totally acceptable; especially if 2 units of the enemy is taking several D6 of S3 no armor hits.

-Matt

I'm very lucky in that I bought several lots of around 300-400 zombies of eBay and so placing numbers on the table is no worry (hopefully)

In a any proxie works game, I ended with 600-700 zombies on the table. It was a draw. I lucked out that my opponent miscast his purple sun, and misfired with it the first attempt.

-Matt

Had the game on Saturday. Took on a skaven list it was a really close game in the end but I lost, can't remember exactly what it was composed of. I remember a warlock engineer, grey seer, 50 storm vermin, 100 or so clanrats, a tonne of slaves, warp lightning cannon and 2 doomwheels.
If I remember right I had about 300 zombies by turn 2. Most of his units were tarpitted by that time. I found that my list really does lack offensive potential (what can you expect from zombies?). The wolves bit the dust early on, I might drop a unit as they don't fit in we'll with the slow list.
ASF rerolling to hit and wound zombies are cool but they still died in droves to stormvermin. In the end my buffed GG unit ended up sweeping centre field of a couple of units of slaves before being doomwheeled and lightinged to death. Horrors carved up hundreds of slaves and clanrats but were tied up all game.
He won I think because he was the more experienced general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'm going to ditch the wolves and a corpse cart for some sort of offensive potential. What would you suggest?

RageAgainstReality wrote:
The wolves bit the dust early on, I might drop a unit as they don't fit in we'll with the slow list.

That might actually be a reason to keep them.

Having chaff units is useful in a slow list, since it allows you to redirect potential flankers. At the very least, they can buy you a turn to reposition yourself more favourably.

RageAgainstReality wrote:
I found that my list really does lack offensive potential (what can you expect from zombies?).

ASF rerolling to hit and wound zombies are cool but they still died in droves to stormvermin.

Terrorgheists are your friends with this sort of list. Tarpit the enemy with zombies, and then have the 'Gheists sit behind them and scream the enemy to death.

Curse of years may also be nice if you can get it off.

Also, if you really want a zombie-heavy army, you might find some of the suggestions in this thread useful:

http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-300-Zombies-I-m-sorry-but-yes

 vipoid wrote:

RageAgainstReality wrote:
The wolves bit the dust early on, I might drop a unit as they don't fit in we'll with the slow list.

That might actually be a reason to keep them.

Having chaff units is useful in a slow list, since it allows you to redirect potential flankers. At the very least, they can buy you a turn to reposition yourself more favourably.

RageAgainstReality wrote:
I found that my list really does lack offensive potential (what can you expect from zombies?).

ASF rerolling to hit and wound zombies are cool but they still died in droves to stormvermin.

Terrorgheists are your friends with this sort of list. Tarpit the enemy with zombies, and then have the 'Gheists sit behind them and scream the enemy to death.

Curse of years may also be nice if you can get it off.

Also, if you really want a zombie-heavy army, you might find some of the suggestions in this thread useful:

http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-300-Zombies-I-m-sorry-but-yes

Thanks for the link. I will have a fiddle around with the list and see what I can do for my next 2 upcoming games

Right I had a game against a pretty easy O&G list a few hours ago. If I remember right he spammed low level goblin shaman and a few large blocks of night goblins. There was also the huge spider thingy, and are they called Mangler squigs? Oh yeah and a large unit of black orcs.
To cut to the chase I marched across the board and butchered him in about 3 turns. Second turn sent out sprit hosts to draw out fanatics and when they hit combat my zombies did something! Corpse cart was actually pretty useful when combined with vigour and dans macabre and the Mortis engine was near enough essential. It eventually popped and took out about 40 zombies and quite a few goblins. Grave guard were utter monsters like last game and ended up killing the giant spider and black orcs (when they are buffed to full potential with spells they become hideous) before being destroyed along with my general by the mangler squigs (those things are brutal!). All in all it was a really fun game and I WON!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm seeing what you said about the terrorgheists now. With everything tied up by a wall of zombies they would be next to inaccessible by my opponent and free to scream stuff to death.