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I was wondering when the blood ravens where introdused to the setting. Did they not exist before the dawn of war games?

I like their colour patterns, and they are quite well represented in the games. Also, some of the horus heresey novels drops some minor references to them. Also, how big are they considered cannon?

In Warhammer 40K there is to much backround information to take in, and it always get rewritten each new codex that comes out. I find these things a bit confusing and also a bit baffeling. The essence of the fictional setting seems to be the same, even if things get written out and inn. How much does it matter?

If my fluff fu doesn't fail me, I remember them being mentioned during the Medusa V campaign.

OK, perhaps my question was bad.

When where they introduced to the setting?

When did they ever get exspanded on besides the name of them before the dawn of war games?

How does warhammer deal with cannon and non-cannon with fluf pieses being re-written?

They did not exist before the DoW games, no. They were later introduced to the table-top game through Imperial Armor articles and other publications.

They are a Codex-adherent Chapter, in the main, apart from the fact that they have a higher-than-average number of Librarians and (until recently) the Chapter Master was also a Librarian. That being the case, there were 1000 Blood Ravens at the height of their strength. Currently, there's a few hundred left (less than half the Chapter survives, following the failed campaign of Kurava and then the purging of its heretical members in DoW2) who are all on a Penitent Crusade (as seen in Space Marine).

They may or may not be a "loyalist" Chapter descended from the Thousand Sons. There's some hints that some players like to take as direct proof but, it's not. Otherwise, they have an unknown Founding (though the records of other Chapters and Imperial organizations don't mention them at all until M37 or so) and no known Primarch or Progenitor Chapter.

They were created for the Dawn of War games so Relic wouldn't step on any toes with their story. That was the reason given back in 2004 when the game came out, shortly after the launch of 4th edition.

What do you mean by "how big are they considered canon"? Like how many are there in the fluff, or are their stories canon? Their stories are as canon as anything else is in 40k (ironic considering they were made to not upset much established canon) and in the fluff they're a bit smaller than other chapters, because the Kaurava campaign (Soulstorm) ended very poorly for them.

 Niiai wrote:
In Warhammer 40K there is to much backround information to take in, and it always get rewritten each new codex that comes out. I find these things a bit confusing and also a bit baffeling. The essence of the fictional setting seems to be the same, even if things get written out and inn. How much does it matter?

The new codexes do not matter at all.

By example, there is a popular movie franchise called Star Wars. You do not need to have seen it or have an opinion on it to understand the example.

Star Wars movies were made in the seventies and are still extremely popular. They were the second film appearance of an actor who would go on to be the third highest grossing actor of all time, and they have the best known film score by a renowned movie composer. They were obviously made by a group of extremely passionate people.

Forty years later, there are gobs of additional products elaborating on those movies. Here is the thing. If you saw Star Wars tomorrow, having never heard of it before, you would probably be fairly moved; they are very good movies. If you saw a spin-off product like a terrible video game called Star Wars: Masters of Teräs Käsi, or the TV special called Ewok Christmas Special, you might give a crap and a half if you really like Christmas specials. People mostly like the Star Wars films because they are a moving story told very well. The thousand action figures and rpg sourcebooks are not that story, they are told in a different way, and by different people.

Warhammer 40k was made twenty years ago. It is complete, or if you do not think it is complete then it is "over." The people who made it were passionate about creating something and sharing it with the world. They created it, people loved it, their passion was satisfied or ran its course, and they did something else.

Let's put it this way. If you could look at the Blood Ravens' Index Astartes article and the Dawn of War games, without ever having any other knowledge of warhammer and somehow stripping out or not considering all the things that Dawn of War did not invent for itself, then that is fine and something you care about. However, if you are not interested in some part of the new material, then that thing doesn't matter because it can't go back in time and change Star Wars from a good movie to a boring movie about domestic abuse and midichlorians.

 Brother SRM wrote:
They were created for the Dawn of War games so Relic wouldn't step on any toes with their story. That was the reason given back in 2004 when the game came out, shortly after the launch of 4th edition.

What do you mean by "how big are they considered canon"? Like how many are there in the fluff, or are their stories canon? Their stories are as canon as anything else is in 40k (ironic considering they were made to not upset much established canon) and in the fluff they're a bit smaller than other chapters, because the Kaurava campaign (Soulstorm) ended very poorly for them.

It's funny enough that two months after dawn of war was released, the 4th edition space marine codex was released and canonized the Blood Ravens as an actual chapter.

You know I'm really surprised GW didn't feed off the success of the Dawn of War games. You know create some related products like model for Gaberial Anglos (or however you spell it) and maybe special kits for each of the squad leaders in DoW 2.

Then maybe even a data slate with a bunch of new characters and some chapter tactics. But I digress.

The main thing is do what you want! It's your models and story. But yes I do recall the rumer if the Blood Ravens being descended from the Thousand Sons. Probably helps explain the high amount of librarians, and considering they tend to go bad.

Blood Ravens only came into existence at the point of DOW.

They were the chapter created by Relic solely for the game and storyline of DOW. Just like the Storm Wardens for the FFG Deathwatch RPG.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
In Warhammer 40K there is to much backround information to take in, and it always get rewritten each new codex that comes out. I find these things a bit confusing and also a bit baffeling. The essence of the fictional setting seems to be the same, even if things get written out and inn. How much does it matter?

The new codexes do not matter at all.

By example, there is a popular movie franchise called Star Wars. You do not need to have seen it or have an opinion on it to understand the example.

Star Wars movies were made in the seventies and are still extremely popular. They were the second film appearance of an actor who would go on to be the third highest grossing actor of all time, and they have the best known film score by a renowned movie composer. They were obviously made by a group of extremely passionate people.

Forty years later, there are gobs of additional products elaborating on those movies. Here is the thing. If you saw Star Wars tomorrow, having never heard of it before, you would probably be fairly moved; they are very good movies. If you saw a spin-off product like a terrible video game called Star Wars: Masters of Teräs Käsi, or the TV special called Ewok Christmas Special, you might give a crap and a half if you really like Christmas specials. People mostly like the Star Wars films because they are a moving story told very well. The thousand action figures and rpg sourcebooks are not that story, they are told in a different way, and by different people.

Warhammer 40k was made twenty years ago. It is complete, or if you do not think it is complete then it is "over." The people who made it were passionate about creating something and sharing it with the world. They created it, people loved it, their passion was satisfied or ran its course, and they did something else.

Let's put it this way. If you could look at the Blood Ravens' Index Astartes article and the Dawn of War games, without ever having any other knowledge of warhammer and somehow stripping out or not considering all the things that Dawn of War did not invent for itself, then that is fine and something you care about. However, if you are not interested in some part of the new material, then that thing doesn't matter because it can't go back in time and change Star Wars from a good movie to a boring movie about domestic abuse and midichlorians.

You have a funny notion of WH40K's canon policy...

I think using star wars as an example might be bad. Star wars cannon has for a long time ooerated with two cannons, the biggest being "the extended universe" containing all the books, gamew and comics. That will not be true longer once disney make the next movie that is not based on the extended universe.

Not unlike how the deciever no longer infiltrate imperial poletics after the new necron codex.

Thanks, this thread has awswred a lot.

 Niiai wrote:
I think using star wars as an example might be bad. Star wars cannon has for a long time ooerated with two cannons, the biggest being "the extended universe" containing all the books, gamew and comics. That will not be true longer once disney make the next movie that is not based on the extended universe.

Not unlike how the deciever no longer infiltrate imperial poletics after the new necron codex.

Thanks, this thread has awswred a lot.

40K canon policy is that everything is canon and everything is unreliable propoganda.

Ironically enough Necron related fluff is among the more reliable since it's almpst always seen from the point of view of the other races, who would usually have little to gain from lying when chronicalling the Necrons kicking their asses into the dirt.

Particularly noteworthy in that regard is Imperial Armour 12: Fall of Orpheus, which is told almost entirely in the form of a classified Inquisitorial report on the events of the Dark Harvest, including first hand accounts from personal, transcripts of various transmissions, ship's logs, transcripts of interrogations, official documents, official Imperial tactical threat assesments and technical analysis reports by Imperial and AdMech sources. The background fluff section is even closed by the image of the Imperial decree declaring the final fate of the Orphean Salvation campaign, cosigned and sealed by the seals of the Imperial Navy, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astartes, Minotaurs Chapter, the Inquisition and the Lords of Terra, which among other things essentially delares the previous fluff section highly classified information that is to be struck from official records.

Awesome book by the way.

Did you know who wrote the Index Astartes article for White Dwarf magazine for the Blood Ravens? It was Graham McNeill.

I like the BR fluff. I'm sad they don't have their own transfers, or at least FW shoulderpads.

I would not go that far Rostere: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/SPACE_MARINE_TRANSFER_SHEETS/BLOOD-RAVENS-TRANSFER-SHEET.html