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So we know a Hive Tyrant joins TG as an IC but is not an IC for any other purposes (for instance leaving the unit). So what Happens if he gets sniped by something that ignores LoS (or you choose not to use LoS and have the Tyrant die first).

So like an IG command squad the HT is the Warlord so its definitely STW. We all agreed?

But is it first blood? I believe it is not as he is not an IC and therefore not a separate unit for victory points. He is simply a Character in a unit much like a SM sergeant. Am I correct on that if not please explain why you think I'm wrong.

I think you are correct. Further, in Purge the Alien, it wouldn't be a KP. Same sort of thing happens if you take Sergeant Garadon in Sentinels of Terra and make him your Warlord.

Interesting question and, although you make a good argument on the contrary, I'd say it would give up First Blood. After all, unlike a SM sergeant, the Hive Tyrant is bought from a different unit entry in the codex.

So what if that Sergeant is a Space Wolf such as a Wolfguard joining a unit? Or a Necron Lord/Cryptek joined to a unit?

I think because he is still a "Character" , he gives up his own kill point. Unless he loses the "character" trait when he joins a unit of Guard.

Same would go for any character that joins a unit. (Not sure if space wolf wolf guard are characters or not)

Lords and Crypteks are indeed characters and they certainly don't give up FB when they die. If you think it is down to character unit type please provide some rules to support that. The Victory Points rules only talk about Independent Characters which the Tyrant isn't.

page 122, The first Unit to be removed as a casualty during the game is worth 1 VP/FB. He is his own unit entry... That joins another unit. When a Tyrant or swarmlord joins a unit of tyrant guard he does is as if he was an independent character. (again is own Unit entry) page 46 codex.

The real question why/how would you even let the Hive tyrant die prior to the Guard. He is in a unit that auto pass's look out sir rolls.. I guess the Vindi Assassin firing for 2 turns, and getting lucky on both shots could do it... But A) who use's a Vindi anymore, and B) How would any tyranid player ever let it happen.

Yes it is unlikely that the Tyrant would die before the Tyrant Guard. But possible. I'd say the Vindicare assassin is a more competitive choice than Tyrant Guard so I don't expect to see either hugely regularly but that doesn't remove the rules question.

Are you saying that the Tyrant is an IC because the rules don't support that. Or are you claiming he remains his own separate unit and thus can be targeted separately and moves separately and is not joined to the Tyrant Guard?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So what if that Sergeant is a Space Wolf such as a Wolfguard joining a unit? Or a Necron Lord/Cryptek joined to a unit?

If that was the only Wolfguard or Necron Lord chosen from that "unit" at army selection, just as the Hive Tyrant is, then yes, you would get first blood.

 The Shadow wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So what if that Sergeant is a Space Wolf such as a Wolfguard joining a unit? Or a Necron Lord/Cryptek joined to a unit?

If that was the only Wolfguard or Necron Lord chosen from that "unit" at army selection, just as the Hive Tyrant is, then yes, you would get first blood.

So if I take a single Necron Lord as my court join him to a warriors unit and he dies first he gives up FB and a VP for PtA? That is what you're saying correct? If so what rules do you have to support this?

Im saying (and the codex), when he joins a unit of Guard he does so exactly as an IC... He is is his own unit entry and joins another Unit entry as if he were an IC.

You make a post on YMTC, that is like beyond possible of ever happening, and i gave you the 2 references that support my call. Im not sure what else i can say.

When any IC join another unit, he is still his own VP / Unit Entry when calculation VP/KP

I think Tau has an HQ that simply comes with his own Body guard. He is not an IC and does not join that body guard as an IC. They are bought as 1 Unit Entry, so if you pop the Guy prior to the body guard, HE DOES NOT give up FB or his own KP/VP if only he dies. (well unless the Tau book says he does, or if he dies his body guard automatically die. But if he lives and his 2 body guard die, then that still is NOT FB or VP/KP )

The Tyrant in a unit of Guard does not work the same way.

m saying (and the codex), when he joins a unit of Guard he does so exactly as an IC... He is is his own unit entry and joins another Unit entry as if he were an IC.

What has unit entry got to do with anything? Yes he joins as an IC. He is not an IC for VP purposes unless you can show that he is?

When any IC join another unit, he is still his own VP / Unit Entry when calculation VP/KP

The HT isn't an IC he is only an IC for the purpose of joining. Are VPs calculated when you join a unit?

I think Tau has an HQ that simply comes with his own Body guard. He is not an IC and does not join that body guard as an IC. They are bought as 1 Unit Entry, so if you pop the Guy prior to the body guard, HE DOES NOT give up FB or his own KP/VP if only he dies. (well unless the Tau book says he does, or if he dies his body guard automatically die. But if he lives and his 2 body guard die, then that still is NOT FB or VP/KP )

Aun'va but he does give up STW when he dies (if he does so before his bodyguard).

The Tyrant in a unit of Guard does not work the same way.

Why?

Seems pretty cut and dry, A VP/KP is awarded per unit.

The Tyrant and Guard are 2 separate units, bought from 2 separate entries. Guard is a unit is that does not take up force org. Also the Tyrant DOES NOT have to join the Guard.... again 2 Separate Units... the Tyrant may join the guard like an IC, still 2 separate Units when calculating VP/KP.

I quoted the book, stated my references and now it seems im talking in circles.

The probability of the rules in question ever coming into play are slim to none, so i'm not sure why you even bother asking unless you just wanted to make a post to simply argue rules/grey areas that can be twisted...

I will remove myself from posting further, as the rules are pretty clear, cut and dry. If it ever happens at a tourney good luck on the T.O. making the ruling as you see it i guess.

The Tyrant and Guard are 2 separate units

So I can target them individually? Since they are separate units?

They were separate units before they joined they are then 1 unit once they are joined. Thus you target them and fight with them as 1 unit. Thus they give up VPs as 1 unit. Unless you have an exception to that last part (as you do for ICs).

 FlingitNow wrote:

The Tyrant and Guard are 2 separate units

So I can target them individually? Since they are separate units?

They were separate units before they joined they are then 1 unit once they are joined. Thus you target them and fight with them as 1 unit. Thus they give up VPs as 1 unit. Unless you have an exception to that last part (as you do for ICs).

If you are going to quote me, quote the complete sentence, again you are twisting what is said taking part of the sentence to validate your argument.

I said "the Tyrant may join the guard like an IC, still 2 separate Units when calculating VP/KP. " No, not for shooting. Just like an independent character who joins a unit, but you knew that...

It's clear you had your mind made up on the rule prior to even posting this "Never happening hypothetical rules question"...

Again good luck pulling this off in a Tourney and getting the T.O. to side with you I guess. /shrug

What gives you permission to treat them as separate units for VPs but not anything else?

Yes an IC has permission to be treated this way but the HT isn't an IC. He can't for instance leave the unit. So what rules are you using to determine you treat him as an IC for VPs?

 FlingitNow wrote:
What gives you permission to treat them as separate units for VPs but not anything else?

Yes an IC has permission to be treated this way but the HT isn't an IC. He can't for instance leave the unit. So what rules are you using to determine you treat him as an IC for VPs?

They are not joined at the end of the game when you calculate VP's for units destroyed, they are not the same unit at the end of the game Thus you get a VP for each unit.

One for the Hive Tyrant and one for the Guard.

That's sounds good logic what makes them split at the end of the game?

The SW example is fully explained in the codex and faq. It's not a valid example in this case as they don't "join like IC's".

Could the tryant and guard not be similar to guard blob and reduce the VPs or KPs accordingly?

 FlingitNow wrote:
That's sounds good logic what makes them split at the end of the game?

The fact that they are no longer on the table to measure coherency.

The fact that they are no longer on the table to measure coherency

So? If the unit takes casualties such that the Hive Tyrant is not in coherency he doesn't suddenly leave the unit. Coherency has nothing to do with whether he is part of the unit once he has joined it.

Is it an individual unit in the force organisation chart? Yes.
Does it have a special rule, like Necron Royal Courts, where it counts as being a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes? No.

Do I need to spell it out for you?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
That's sounds good logic what makes them split at the end of the game?

The fact that they are no longer on the table to measure coherency.

That means they're not in coherency. It doesn't mean the tyrant has left the unit... He can't leave the unit, as he isn't an IC.


As far as I can see, the tyrant in this case would give up Slay the Warlord (just as a Guard Commander would), but you would have to kill the entire unit for First Blood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does it have a special rule, like Necron Royal Courts, where it counts as being a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes? No.

Yes... it joins the unit as if it were an IC. So it would follow the IC rules for joining the unit... which include the IC counting as a part of the unit once joined.

He can't ever subsequently leave the unit, as he isn't an IC, and there is no mechanism for non-ICs to leave units.

As for a situation it might happen? 11 on the Warp Storm chart. Play a Kairos list and it can happen more than you would think.

 insaniak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does it have a special rule, like Necron Royal Courts, where it counts as being a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes? No.

Yes... it joins the unit as if it were an IC. So it would follow the IC rules for joining the unit... which include the IC counting as a part of the unit once joined.

He can't ever subsequently leave the unit, as he isn't an IC, and there is no mechanism for non-ICs to leave units.

Correct, the Hive Tyrant is still joined to the unit. However it is also a dead unit, so it confers First Blood/Slay the Warlord/Purge the Alien VPs.
Remember, paradoxes are completely legal and often mandatory in the 40k ruleset.

Wolf Guard joined to units don't give it up. Crypteks don't. Warlocks joined to Guardian units don't. Why should the HT? Purge the Alien specifically says IC's do, which the HT isn't.

Since after joining the Tyrant has no way of leaving the unit, does that mean a Prime can join a lone Tyrant that had been part of a Guard unit? After all, the Prime would be joining the Guard unit.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Correct, the Hive Tyrant is still joined to the unit. However it is also a dead unit, so it confers First Blood/Slay the Warlord/Purge the Alien VPs.

Except that once it joins the Guard, it is no longer a separate unit.

ICs still count as a separate unit because the rules state that they do. The Tyrant isn't an IC, he just uses the IC rules to join a unit. Once joined to the unit, he is just a part of the unit.


So killing the tyrant in that situation is no more killing a unit than it would be if you killed all 3 Wolf Guard from a 3-man unit that had been parcelled out to Grey Hunter squads.

The difference is that a dead Hive Tyrant is a dead Hive Tyrant, while a dead Wolf Guard joined to a unit of Grey Hunters is treated as a dead Grey Hunter.

Since after joining the Tyrant has no way of leaving the unit, does that mean a Prime can join a lone Tyrant that had been part of a Guard unit? After all, the Prime would be joining the Guard unit.

Yes of course.

The difference is that a dead Hive Tyrant is a dead Hive Tyrant, while a dead Wolf Guard joined to a unit of Grey Hunters is treated as a dead Grey Hunter.

Sorry what? I need a citation for that. A dead wolf guard is a dead wolf guard.