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How best to use them?

Do you begin the game with them or let them deep strike?

Do you use them as a shooty unit in cover that can take incredible amounts of punishment (2+/4++ cover) or do you use them to assault enemies?


I've been thinking about how to equip them. Now that 6th edition has made Nemesis force swords and halberds AP3, they are no longer such an attractive choice anymore and make the (free) Daemon Hammers tempting. On the other hand, unlike assault terminators, GK termies lack the 3+ inv. saves and merely have to contend with 5++, and because they strike last with hammers, it is actually NOT a good idea to use them in the same fashion of "getting rid of big, nasty things" the way you would with a Hammernator squad.

GK termies are actually even better at shooting than tactical terminators because the Psycannon is undeniably superior to the Assault cannon due to the additional Strength, and the GK shooting can be further enhanced by Psybolt ammo for the Stormbolters, although it is costly (combat squadding is the best way to make use of psybolt ammo I think)

So yeah, while GK termies cant hold up to Hammernators in terms of taking care of nasties, they are certainly better than regular tactical terminators because of superior shooting and better anti-MC close combat prowess with the concussive daemon hammers (and hammerhand) although admittedly tactical termies have the edge when it comes to anti-vehicle in CC due to the option of taking chainfists.

But would you give all of them daemon hammers or are things like the Nemesis warding stave or brotherhood banner worth buying?

Either
5 Terminators
2 Hammers
3 Halberds
Incinerator

or

5 Terminators
2 Hammers
3 halberds
psycannon

You can trade out a halberd for a sword but, that sword hardly every makes up its worth as most things you go against you will get a 2+ and anything shooting you with high ap means you still only get a 5++ as the 4++ only comes in assault. I'd rather just strike first and kill my opponent but it could be good if for say you went up against a daemon prince or something and wanted a chance to try and save some wounds

Advantages in both. The top one is the one I use, and on the deep strike you can generally burn off any GEQ unit hiding out in cover. and it allows them to have a bit more (firepower when dealing with infantry than a psycannon if that is the role you want them to play) The bottom unit allows you to drop down a termi squad and they take on a tank hunter role, in which while moving to where they want to, they can still lay down some nice shots into the back of a tank that might be a ways away. I like the top squad more as if you have enough psycannon 1 extra at 20points is kindu ehhh to me. And you can't assault with he termi psycannon unless you decide not to shoot it as tactical armored units always count as using the heavy option, so I'd rather have the 5 point incinerator come down flame a unit and get right into combat.

Once a week, this request comes up. Forum fav is:

Max Psycannons
2 hammers per 5 models
2 halberds per 5 models
1 sword per 5 models
Psybolts only on 10man squads
Banner in place of a halberd, only on 10man squad
Halberd on Justicar, unless you buy a Staff.

Paladins have the same load out, except that Apothecaries only on 10man squads, and solo Paladins with Hammers are good.

I find Banners are with it, especially against Nids, halberds are a must, swords aren't bad, and falchions are only worth taking a gimmick unit.

SJ

Why are you guys vouching for the non-all-out-daemonhammer approach? Isnt AP3 a liability if you come across 2+ save units? You might as well be using cc-weapons against them.

Regarding the brotherhood banner... I think in combination with daemonhammers it's the best bang for your buck because an additional S9 attack is far more worth the points than an additional S5 attack.

And why not give the Justicar a daemon hammer? He can master-craft it, and a S9 re-roll is more useful than a S5 re-roll. While I understand that a higher initiative would give him an edge in challenges, and the DH makes him strike last, bear in mind he has 2+ armor, and there arent many weapons out there that strike at high initiative AND are AP2 (only MCs, scorpion's claw, o'shovah, burning blade and certain daemon artifacts come in mind, most of which are in the hands of 150+ point HQs) so they would strike at the same time.

 Dezstiny wrote:
And you can't assault with he termi psycannon unless you decide not to shoot it as tactical armored units always count as using the heavy option, so I'd rather have the 5 point incinerator come down flame a unit and get right into combat.

dont the gk terminators have relentless? meaning they can fire heavy weapons AND assault (just like regular terminators with their asscannon or CML)?

The above post was pretty spot on, and running terminators against 2+ opponents might not be the best idea due to the 6th ed power sword/halberd changes. The hammers are great to double out special characters, penetrate a vehicle or force invulns on a monstrous creature (namely Riptide/Wraithknight/Lord), but as there is at initiative AP2 floating around, our termies aren't that that great in CC against other TEQs and the 5++ is not a 3++ or even the 4++ some characters get. However, facing a MEQ opponent the mix of halberds/hammers is great; your Justicar can challenge the PF sergeant and smoke him at I6, while your other halberds wreck face, you take some hits at I4, then the hammers hit back.

I find the banner to be great in a large unit (ten strong with Draigo or GM or Libby), as the attack bonuses really add up. I tend to run mine on the Paladin Apothecary, who stays away from the front line (really center of the blob) to stay alive.

And yes, they are relentless just like SM/BA/DW etc. Termies. I do believe all minis with TDA armor gain relentless.

Yeah, just rechecked the entry for the banner. Your squad as a whole essentially only gets 3 more low AP cc attacks than its default total (instead of 5 for the min. squad, as the wielder's own 2 default low AP attacks are converted into AP- ones because the banner replaces his force weapon) and 25 points for 3 more attacks is way too steep.


I'm thinking 1 guy with a sword for strategic placement to ward off low AP cc-attacks is worth it (4++ in cc is as close as we can get to a stormshield), justicar with the halberd now makes sense about the challenging PF sarge thing (but he'll still strike at the same time as the striking scorp exarch so they'll kill each other)

2 swords, 1 master-crafted halberd, 2 hammers sound good?

OR

1 warding stave, 1 halberd, 1 mc'd halberd, 2 hammers?

@OP

Yea you are correct I forgot about relentless on termis but that's because I only ever use the incinerator. The loadout you suggested 1 warding stave on the justicar, 2 hammers, and I'd say 2 halberds with an incinerator/psycannon sounds like it has a lot of promise. If they ever got stuck in combat they'd probably hold that unit all game short of hit and run and a failed save on the warding stave. The only problem I forsee with this unit is that it begins getting expensive if you take both warding stave and psycannon, warding stave alone and incinerator is still pretty expensive but awight. Also nobody in their right mind is going anywhere near a terminator squad with a warding stave until they've shot up the unit. This is both good and bad as it brings a lot of threat if that is what you are looking for but, also makes the unit more likely to take a number of losses before getting into combat and you might find that warding stave just being a point drain more than anything. I know as is my terminators take a good considerable amount of shooting without a warding stave and their incinerator upgrade so just my 2 sense about your termi setup. I hope whatever manner you decide to load them out ends up working well for you.

The thing with using a mix if Nemesis Force Weapons that shines over all of the same type is the "out of initiative step" activation rules that allows all members of the squad with NFW the option to activate as soon as one unsaved wound is inflicted. Getting that unsaved wound dealt at I6 lets the I6 and I4 weapons to hit as ID, allowing less counter attacks so your I1 hammers can still swing. Putting a halberd on the Justicar nets more attacks at I6, more chances to cause activation, better chance at more GKs surviving to the next turn.

The only time taking all of the same NFW is beneficial is on PAGK due to upgrade weapon costs, or on gimmick units like 10 GKT, a Libby, 10 sets of Falchions, 1 Banner, and Quicksilver.

SJ

If you run alot of hammers, a warding stave is a must buy. As far as the swords/halberds go, just don't charge them at things with a 2+ armor save. Shoot those units, or have a dedicated AP2 unit (full hammers or a henchmen squad) to deal with stuff like that.

Despite the collective wisdom and common sense, I personally have had alot of success with the "monster hunter" squad: 5 man, 1 warding stave 4 hammers (usually a combat squad so no one to challenge out). It's 220 pts, and can kill pretty much any big nasty in a single turn. Take their AP2 attacks on the stave, then everyone swings back with S8 force or S10 AP2 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in case jeffersonian's post was confusing, the order of operations at each initiative step is this:

Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Make saving throws
Force weapons are activated at first unsaved wound
Allocate wounds (which may be ID if weapons were activated)
Remove casualties
At the next initiative step, force weapons will already be activated.

Its harder and harder to justify terminators with all the AP2 these days. Best way is just to run them as a paladin with a psycannon alone or with a buddy with a hammer. Deepstrike them in and cause chaos for only a small quantity of points. They have to make a decision to shoot at ~130 points of terminators or leave them alone to wreck something.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Once a week, this request comes up. Forum fav is:

Max Psycannons
2 hammers per 5 models
2 halberds per 5 models
1 sword per 5 models
Psybolts only on 10man squads
Banner in place of a halberd, only on 10man squad
Halberd on Justicar, unless you buy a Staff.

Paladins have the same load out, except that Apothecaries only on 10man squads, and solo Paladins with Hammers are good.

I find Banners are with it, especially against Nids, halberds are a must, swords aren't bad, and falchions are only worth taking a gimmick unit.

SJ

It's almost down to a science these days.

I like my swords on the psycannons to ensure they stay alive after combat.

Don't throw a staff on a Justicar...in case you perils those points down the drain...the banner solves this.

I'd personally roll with the stock GKs and not Paladins.

GKs dont have much in the way of AP2 firepower, save the triple plasma henchmen squad, but the chance of them blowing themselves up is pretty high given the volume of plasma cannons and mediocre armor saves; our deathcult assassins are useless in this area now, so really what do we have except daemonhammers?

For AP2?

Not much, Psycannons?

Henchmen also have all the plasma and such.

Razors and Land Raiders help with the biggger guns too.

Why do you need AP2?

If you have AP3, you're killing 90% of everything out there...

If Nids come a knocking with Armored Shells (2+), you find yourself playing DA Deathwing, or facing Riptides etc., Daemonhammered GK Termies deep striking is usually the only effective counter we have, provided they have a warding staff to soak up the enemy MC's cc attacks before getting to strike.

Anti-scary thingie configuration: 5 GK termies, 3 Daemonhammers, 1 master-crafted justicar halberd (challenges), 1 warding stave (is an I4 AP3 weapon according to the errata, I think), 1 incinerator (so as to not get bogged down by light infantry and also get a boost to overwatch)

Someone said daemonhammers could have S10 with hammerhand...but isnt the strength modifier applied after the Sx2?

 Sir Arun wrote:
If Nids come a knocking with Armored Shells (2+), you find yourself playing DA Deathwing, or facing Riptides etc., Daemonhammered GK Termies deep striking is usually the only effective counter we have, provided they have a warding staff to soak up the enemy MC's cc attacks before getting to strike.

Armoured Shells no longer exist in the new book, and you can heavily...heavily outgun other termies before engaging.

Fighting tau will be an uphill battle...but that's why you have dreadknights...

well to be fair, with a 10 man unit you should be doing atleast one wound to a riptide (even at AP3) then you can have the banner or activate FW to just off him then

I've been running an all TDA Ghostwing for a few years now, with only a few changes to how they are armed. Went from 1 hammer per 5 to 2 hammers per 5, and dropped a Halberd per 5 for a Sword. I only run a Banner on the Ghosts, and on the GKT squad that does not get combat squaded. Also, since my Librarian has a Staff and Mordrak has a Hammer, I run the purchased Ghosts with Haberds (and a Banner). The second 10man GKT squad is set up with 2 hammers per 5, 2 halberds per 5, 1 sword per 5, with max Psycannons, because this squad is normally split; technically I should run them as two 5mans for an extra Justicar, yet I'm still buying them as a 10man squad for the flexibility.

SJ

@OP

I've never had trouble against 2+ save armies. In fact last weekend I went up against 15 termis and destroyed them. Stormbolters+ psycannons+ 2x Dreadknights, Termis with hammers, and a nemesis daemon hammer in each unit (ap2) make short work of 2+ save opponents and a dreadknight will kill tryannofex proably 95% of the time through FW activation.

give them a mix of weapons is what I find works best most of the time...

swords and or staff to get 4++ or 2++ to tank wounds in combat with I1 AP2 stuff, and still hit first and ID them if they fail even one save, you still have a few hammers to do the real damage as well

generally if you want to do shooting, GK strike squads do it better for cheaper, so if i take termies, they are there to take/contest objectives in enemies zone, or to get into CC

so in that case the incinerator is the best heavy weapon choice?

sure psycannon helps target the back of tanks, but then you cant charge another squad.

and range usually isnt an issue when you deep strike.

although on the other hand an incinerator (and stormbolter shooting) only makes a successful charge harder in 6th and might leave you sitting ducks

 Sir Arun wrote:
so in that case the incinerator is the best heavy weapon choice?

sure psycannon helps target the back of tanks, but then you cant charge another squad.

and range usually isnt an issue when you deep strike.

although on the other hand an incinerator (and stormbolter shooting) only makes a successful charge harder in 6th and might leave you sitting ducks

Woah woah woah, psycannons are one of the best guns in the game...The only models that should take incinerators are purifiers (on occassion) purgators, and dreadknights, or psuedo dual psyflame dreads (which are just fantastic for dropping out of a stormraven)

When in doubt...MOAR PSYCANNONS.

Hi Arun!

I personally just magnetized all the options in the box for my terminators. Works really well and is only slightly more work.
I'm about to order a batch of magnets if you want to join in the order. I found a great place to get them in Austria.

Also, if you have the right drill bits (check amazon for 2mm bits) magnetizing is a breeze.

Cheers!

 ductvader wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
so in that case the incinerator is the best heavy weapon choice?

sure psycannon helps target the back of tanks, but then you cant charge another squad.

and range usually isnt an issue when you deep strike.

although on the other hand an incinerator (and stormbolter shooting) only makes a successful charge harder in 6th and might leave you sitting ducks

Woah woah woah, psycannons are one of the best guns in the game...The only models that should take incinerators are purifiers (on occassion) purgators, and dreadknights, or psuedo dual psyflame dreads (which are just fantastic for dropping out of a stormraven)

When in doubt...MOAR PSYCANNONS.

dont wast points on the termies shooting... you can get more psycannons and more shooting out of PA Gks...

better choice then the flamer though, so if its just for fun go with that I guess.

@OP

*"My own " Woah Woah , but psycannon terminator can still assault after firing heavy weapons as they have relentless (I just didn't remember that because I don't put heavy weapons on my terminators "

However... like many as well as am I are saying, the choice is a matter of personal take. Some people can get a good number of psycannons into a list where they feel they don't need anymore
I personally have 4 in my list and don't feel the need for more although many Gk veteran players would disagree with me, but that is because I take a more assault and dealing with the meta approach then most. Psycannons are great at popping vehicles with their rending psycannon shots however in the meta, wave-serpents, skimmers, and bikes are the major popular units that are being used as vehicles meaning even when out in the open they are getting cover saves just for moving. The psycannons in my army are to deal with say Wraithknights/Lords, rhinos, Leman Russ tanks your occasional LandRaider, warpspiders, Terminators, or Flying Mostorous Creatures if I can manage to ground them. The take to get is that most of these units out in the open don't get a cover save/ will be pretty banged up through rending as they won't have invulnerable saves. For that reason I have 4 of them for the purpose of having something that can deal with them in a situation that presents itself where they will come in handy.

So going onto incinerators, there are many GEQ forces playing right now in the golden age of cover save. So I pack a lot of incinerators in fact 8 a 2:1 ratio of incinerators to psycannons as opposed to before where it was the exact opposite. Incinerators on t a termi squad mean you want them prepped majorly to be anti-infantry(hence dropping in burning off a unit of dire avengers or tau fire warriors) and then now being of major threat to anything that finds itself within 12" from the unit after that as now they are subject to the same thing happening to them.

As opposed to taking a psycannon you would drop behind for say a dreadnought, in an area saturated with venoms/raiders, maybe even if your feeling lucky an opportune land raider kill. They would drop in stay for the most part in that area and with their 2+ resiliency do their best to pop the venom/raider or take easily take out that dreadnought from behind since they only has 10 RA and can even be penetrated by your storm bolter shots. And that is what you are looking at in terms of difference of bringing a psycannon vs. an incinerator on terminators.

I am one of the ones whom have personally take to the incinerator as being the gem of 6th edition as to where the psycannon was the gem of 5th edition, however there are those who with great reasoning and evidence to support play to trying to maximize psycannons and have much success with them. Really the choice is yours, however I believe your meta will probably decide that for you. If there are many people still playing vehicles or flyers having psycannons to shoot them down might very well appeal to you. However for me there are a lot of skimmer type vehicles/bikes with MC's that don't have invul saves and large amounts of infantry with 3+ armor save at the best, mostly 4+ popping up so taking incinerators for me is a very easy and good choice and have yet to let me down even when facing off against marine players. Because when playing Gk if you get in assault with other marines you have FW they don't so you should be fine. Then even against normal marines besides the plasma guns storm bolters =2 shots and with 5 people you can get 10 shots at 24" range as opposed to a tactical squad needing to have a full 10 man squad to get the same effectiveness. They actually come out to cost more than my 5 man unit and while they have more bodies as GK, we pride ourselves on the quality of our units. So deepstrike/warp quake to keep away 2x tapping plasma guns in drop pods. Rushing in with FW for combat activating hammer hand for str 5 in combat so 4s to hit 3s to wound and AP3. I'll take that over 4s to hit 4s to wound my opponent gets an armor save/ no FW threat to be able to take down a hive tyrant if I were to get lucky.

Well hopefully you didn't look at the paragraphs and go to as I believe a lot of the information in there is quite useful and has been obtained through much play testing but if you didn't I'll just summarize and say that once again psycannons have their perks as do incinerators and what determines as to which will be most useful is that of the current state of the meta you find yourself in.

Psycannons offer flexibility that Incinerators don't, specifically the ability to be used at range, against flyers, and against Monstrous Creatures. Combined with its high rate of fire, Psycannons edge out Incinerators in almost every way. Incinerators dictate your tactics, Psycannons do not. The only Incinerator that out performs a Psycannon is the Heavy Incinerator, due to its range being comparable to the Psycannon yet having the Incinerators template; still can't use it versus Flyers, and it is far less useful versus single targets.

Personally, I use my GKT Psycannons for their rate of fire, and tend to go after soft units first, meaning that I use them in the same role as Incinerators, yet with the option to punch harder targets as needed that a flamer just can't do. Flexibility first.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Psycannons offer flexibility that Incinerators don't, specifically the ability to be used at range, against flyers, and against Monstrous Creatures. Combined with its high rate of fire, Psycannons edge out Incinerators in almost every way. Incinerators dictate your tactics, Psycannons do not. The only Incinerator that out performs a Psycannon is the Heavy Incinerator, due to its range being comparable to the Psycannon yet having the Incinerators template; still can't use it versus Flyers, and it is far less useful versus single targets.

Personally, I use my GKT Psycannons for their rate of fire, and tend to go after soft units first, meaning that I use them in the same role as Incinerators, yet with the option to punch harder targets as needed that a flamer just can't do. Flexibility first.

SJ

I forgot to mention, Interceptors, now thats a unit you can decided for yourself, incinerator or psycannon, there are heavy advantages to both.

I use Psycans on my Interceptors, as well, because I use them as a fast firebase that can reposition as needed.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I use Psycans on my Interceptors, as well, because I use them as a fast firebase that can reposition as needed.

SJ

I do the same.

Usually 10 with Psybolt, 2x Psycannons, maybe a Hammer. and often I'll combat squad to send the other 5+Hammer to pepper the S5 around while psycannons hunker down until they need to flit past the enemy.

But incinerators aren't a bad option.