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So disclosure: I've played two games of Warmachine so far, and I've been struggling to find a faction to run with before I drop down money. Going purely on aesthetics, I'm actually leaning towards trollbloods.

My questions then, in no particular order:

1) How different is Hordes than Warmachine?

2) Are the trollbloods a viable faction for "competitive" play? I'm not planning on trying to become a competitive player any time soon, but coming from a 40k background, I want to make sure im not investing in a faction and models that are ultimately doomed to mediocrity.

3) Any advice you can offer on ..hrm.. how to use them / what to do with them. I'm starting from scratch here, so I need to figure out what to buy and how to use it.

4) Any general advice for hordes in general?

5) Is there a good guide to learning the tactics of the game or the trollbloods faction in particular anywhere? The local players have all been doing it for a long while now, and I need all the help I can get to hit the ground running.

Thanks!

 Barbarus wrote:
So disclosure: I've played two games of Warmachine so far, and I've been struggling to find a faction to run with before I drop down money. Going purely on aesthetics, I'm actually leaning towards trollbloods.

My questions then, in no particular order:

1) How different is Hordes than Warmachine?

Units and solos are the same, but the interaction of beast / warlock and jack / caster is rather different. Check out the free starter rules on PP's website for more but the very basic description is beasts fuel warlocks and casters fuel jacks. No harder in theory but the thinking during play and difrences in rules are more complex than that but others could probably do a better description.

2) Are the trollbloods a viable faction for "competitive" play? I'm not planning on trying to become a competitive player any time soon, but coming from a 40k background, I want to make sure im not investing in a faction and models that are ultimately doomed to mediocrity.

The lovely thing about Warmahordes is the balance is as humanly close to balanced as possible without being identical in abilities. As factions only Minions, Mercinaries and Convergence might be called mediocre. However Convergence is almost brand new, has significantly different mechanics and are missing half their lineup. Meanwhile Minions and Mercs are actual mercinaries that work for other armies but even as indipendent factions regularly place well and win tournaments but for beginners their comparatively strict list building restrictions could be a challenge.

3) Any advice you can offer on ..hrm.. how to use them / what to do with them. I'm starting from scratch here, so I need to figure out what to buy and how to use it.

4) Any general advice for hordes in general?

5) Is there a good guide to learning the tactics of the game or the trollbloods faction in particular anywhere? The local players have all been doing it for a long while now, and I need all the help I can get to hit the ground running.

Thanks!

Sorry my own Trolls are in a pitifull state and I don't get games in often enough with any of my four factions to be any real help here. All I can say is actual practice is best but Battle College does provide rundowns of each faction and model, just remember to bring salt as they are human.

 Barbarus wrote:
So disclosure: I've played two games of Warmachine so far, and I've been struggling to find a faction to run with before I drop down money. Going purely on aesthetics, I'm actually leaning towards trollbloods.
!

First up, Welcome to the iron kingdoms. Don't forget to pick up the complimentary goggles and mulg plushie!

Troll bloods are fun!

 Barbarus wrote:

1) How different is Hordes than Warmachine?
!

Hordes uses about 95% of the same rules as warmachine. The big differences is in the interaction between warbeast, and warlock, and how warlocks fuel their magic. Bear in mind this is a brief, and vague description (I don't want to bog you down with terminology!) my answer comes in Two parts.
(1) In warmachine, your caster gets x focus, allocates it to warjacks, spends some on spells and attacks, and what's left over adds to hid armour.
In hordes, your caster gets nothing. They don't 'really' generate their own fury. Their beasts do. Just like a warjack spends a focus to charge, a beast generates a fury to charge, buy an attack, boost or cast an animus. During your next control phase, your warlock 'leaches' fury from the beasts, up to their fury stat. If there is any left on a beast, it has to make a threshold check or go berserk and you'll temporarily lose control of it. It means you can push your beasts a lot harder than you can push jacks (and get more out of them) but earn your beasts start you due, your army begins to suffer in a big way. You can use fury to cast spells, make extra attacks etc. unlike warmachine, you can use fury to heal a beast, and up your warlock takes Damage, you can spend a fury to transfer it to a beast instead.
(2) the big difference between hordes and warmachine is the composition of the armies. Typically warmachine ones have a caster, a handful of jacks, and a solid backbone of infantry. Due to the nature of fury, and how warlocks and warbeasts are integrated on a far tighter level, With hordes, you will typically field more warbeasts than a warmachine faction fields warjacks (due to the nature of fury) and will be lighter in terms of infantry taken.

 Barbarus wrote:


2) Are the trollbloods a viable faction for "competitive" play? I'm not planning on trying to become a competitive player any time soon, but coming from a 40k background, I want to make sure im not investing in a faction and models that are ultimately doomed to mediocrity.

Hmm, Some say they're not. Check the pp boards. Trolls have won less 'big name events' than some other factions (and I'll stress 'some'' and point out that simple statements like this are often very misleading). My opinion on trolls differs. I think they're solid. In my experience, they still generally perform well. I've seen them win tourneys.There's are some players on the pp boards that do win with trolls (flanzer etc), and win big. Which illustrates the point. And locally, I've not seen them do no worse (or better) than other factions. Also, they've had quite a few new releases that folks are quite happy about that should give them another edge in future.

Overall Barbarus, you need to realise this is a game where the win is determined by skill, moreso than faction choice. All factions are competitive. This is a game that is balanced extremely well. You should have no worries about jumping in with a particular faction.

 Barbarus wrote:

3) Any advice you can offer on ..hrm.. how to use them / what to do with them. I'm starting from scratch here, so I need to figure out what to buy and how to use it.
!

Starter set (or it's alternative) and build up with an escalation league. Pick a solid caster - doomshaoer, grissel, grim, madrak, borka? They're all good. (Borka is my personal favourite though) Start small, and build up slowly. Play lots of games.

'What to buy' depends on what route you want to take. 'How to use then' - likewise. Check the pp boards for some good advice on starting up.

 Barbarus wrote:
So

4) Any general advice for hordes in general?

!

Page 5.

 Barbarus wrote:

5) Is there a good guide to learning the tactics of the game or the trollbloods faction in particular anywhere? The local players have all been doing it for a long while now, and I need all the help I can get to hit the ground running.

Thanks!

Pp boards and the stickies in the troll bloods sub forum could be a shout. though if you ask me, the best way of learning stuff in this game is to be beaten over the head with it a few times!

Trollbloods are a forgiving faction, but still struggle. Army-wide Tough on their infantry can turn what could have been a loss into just a good knocking around. Warmahordes has a steep learning curve, so this could be very helpful to you.

As to their competitiveness, I have had mixed results with them. There are certainly factions I would say have a more solid and well defined playstyle, but Trolls can manage.

Trolls have some models that see a lot of use in narrow list designs. What I mean is that some people will swear by the Mauler, others almost never take it. Unfortunantly, the Troll battle box fits that mold too well. You may use an Axer, but will basically never need 2 Impalers. Madrak 1 is alright, but I don't see him used much.

Still, an escalation league would be a good way to learn the game, and Madrak 1 teaches you a lot about troll synergy. If you do this, prepare to lose more than usual, as the troll box has no heavy beast.

I know some guys (and a gal) who are very good when it comes to using trolls. They are a forgiving faction due to army wide tough.


They are also the 'Good Guys' of Hordes, because they are only defending their homeland against their oppressors.

 welshhoppo wrote:

They are also the 'Good Guys' of Hordes, because they are only defending their homeland against their oppressors.

Doomshaper and his band of Dire Trolls running amok beg to differ on that being their only motivation.

Every faction is morally ambiguous. Except for Cryx. Cryx is pure evil.

As others mentioned, Trollbloods are a forgiving faction in that they're very resilent and tough. I started out with Madrak from the Starter Box as my Warlock and basically played a few "Beast Brick"-Matches, where I made a circle of units with Madraks as the centre and advance.

Basically, with most builds you'll want to get into meele fast, and then hit hard. I really like Fennblades and the Dire Troll Mauler.

Fennblades because they look great and have long reach, meaning you can usually hit the Enemy at least once before he hits you. They're also an excellent tarpit to keep nasty targets occupied.

The Dire Troll Mauler is my personal favorite Heavy, simply because if you hit his two attacks succesfully, you get a free Powerattack.

In short. you can punch an opposing beast in the face twice, and then throw it into a group of infantry nearby. Needless to say its huge fun.

I've also heard some good stuff about the other heavys tough, and concerning light Warbeasts: In 25 Points and below I usually see at least one Impaler (Just to have SOME ranged attack, even in cc-Lists) and 1 Axer. One of my first Lists was something like this:

Madrak Ironhide
1x Impaler
1x Axer
1x Dire Troll Mauler
Fennblades with Officer and Drummer

I have no idea if thats competetive, but i've had some decent runs with these guys.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every faction is morally ambiguous. Except for Cryx. Cryx is pure evil.

I'm not so certain I can call "let's torture this baby elephant until even breathing brings it suffering" is morally ambiguous.

 Kirbinator wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every faction is morally ambiguous. Except for Cryx. Cryx is pure evil.

I'm not so certain I can call "let's torture this baby elephant until even breathing brings it suffering" is morally ambiguous.

However Skorne are a noble warrior race. Besides hating Cryx a little more than everyone else how is Everblight morally ambiguous? From what I can see Tourk and Everblight are just as bad as each other, Everblight just dosen't have the raw power of Tourk in exchange for daddy issues.

 Kirbinator wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Every faction is morally ambiguous. Except for Cryx. Cryx is pure evil.

I'm not so certain I can call "let's torture this baby elephant until even breathing brings it suffering" is morally ambiguous.

Well sure with your human morals, but if you were skorne, you probably wouldn't think twice on it. Morality isn't a finite, definable thing, after all.

Everblight does have redeeming characteristics though.

He actually cares for his spawn, in the way only a benevolent overlord can. He doesn't want to destroy the world, only remake it in his image.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Everblight does have redeeming characteristics though.

He actually cares for his spawn, in the way only a benevolent overlord can. He doesn't want to destroy the world, only remake it in his image.

Isn't that what Toruk wants to do?

His main motive is to recapture all his errant children and kill them, and anybody that gets in his way.

Toruk's motives are separate from his underlings, who want to remake the world into an undead empire. Which would involve everyone dying.

Toruk might not be totally bad, but on the whole Cryx is.

 Grey Templar wrote:
His main motive is to recapture all his errant children and kill them, and anybody that gets in his way.

Toruk's motives are separate from his underlings, who want to remake the world into an undead empire. Which would involve everyone dying.

Toruk might not be totally bad, but on the whole Cryx is.

Oh no, Toruk is totally bad. He's a giant radioactive immortal semi-divine death lizard. It's just that he's terrified of his offspring (for good reason, as they nearly killed him the last time they got in a fight), and due to his immortality has plenty of time to plot their demise and subsequent reabsorbtion. The Nightmare Empire as a whole exists purely as a means to that end, working off the philosophy that Thralls last longer than people, it's easier to steal the skulls of dead scientists than bother inventing things yourself, and the undead are the only thing that can withstand Dragonblight without falling over dead.

Luckily for the rest of Immoren, this means that a large scale Cryx invasion is probably less of a bad thing than previously anticipated, as they SHOULD ignore population centers (barring "recruitment" campaigns) and head straight for known dragon lairs for snack time.

Unluckily for the rest of Immoren, the Lich Lords are all card-carrying monocle-wearing cartoon villains who alternate between loyal servitude to the Dragon Father and twirling their moustaches, so the previous line of thought will probably go right out the window once Asphyxious sees another path to godhood. Even worse, I'm not sure Toruk's given much thought to what he'll do AFTER all his kids are back in his athanc where they belong, so the massive undead empire might just happen for giggles anyhow.

Cryx isn't all bad. They just want to get rid of the other bad dragons.

They are into recycling and are very accepting of any and all cultures. They don't treat anyone different.

Piracy? Slavery? Nothing that the other nations don't do.

People complain about necromancy, but it is really just using what resources that are available. And Menoth and Morrow both use necromancy. What do you think bringing the Avatar back to life is? Healing and resurrection is pretty similar magic/science to necromancy. It is pretty much the same thing just one sounds nicer than the other because people don't really understand necromancy.

Yes, sometimes Cryx get caught up in things and people misunderstand them, but the ends justify the means, right? Goreshade is just trying to save the elven race just like the Retribution. In fact, at least he is not trying to commit genocide to do it.

Anything "evil" that Cryx has done the other factions have done just as bad if not worse.

There is a difference between bringing someone back to life and Necromancy.

Necromancy is the animation of dead tissue. The soul does not re-inhabit the body(they use it for other things)

Mechanithralls long ago had their souls ripped out. They're nothing more than puppets made of dead flesh.

Healing and Resurrection involves bringing the dead person back to life. There is no life in a Thrall.

And its the Harbinger, not the Avatar. The Avatar is a Warjack.

Mordekiem wrote:
Cryx isn't all bad. They just want to get rid of the other bad dragons.

They are into recycling and are very accepting of any and all cultures. They don't treat anyone different.

Piracy? Slavery? Nothing that the other nations don't do.

People complain about necromancy, but it is really just using what resources that are available. And Menoth and Morrow both use necromancy. What do you think bringing the Avatar back to life is? Healing and resurrection is pretty similar magic/science to necromancy. It is pretty much the same thing just one sounds nicer than the other because people don't really understand necromancy.

Yes, sometimes Cryx get caught up in things and people misunderstand them, but the ends justify the means, right? Goreshade is just trying to save the elven race just like the Retribution. In fact, at least he is not trying to commit genocide to do it.

Anything "evil" that Cryx has done the other factions have done just as bad if not worse.

Spoken like a true Tharamite. Besides, Cryx uses slavery. You obey the master or you are disciplined.

 Surtur wrote:

Mordekiem wrote:
Cryx isn't all bad. They just want to get rid of the other bad dragons.

They are into recycling and are very accepting of any and all cultures. They don't treat anyone different.

Piracy? Slavery? Nothing that the other nations don't do.

People complain about necromancy, but it is really just using what resources that are available. And Menoth and Morrow both use necromancy. What do you think bringing the Avatar back to life is? Healing and resurrection is pretty similar magic/science to necromancy. It is pretty much the same thing just one sounds nicer than the other because people don't really understand necromancy.

Yes, sometimes Cryx get caught up in things and people misunderstand them, but the ends justify the means, right? Goreshade is just trying to save the elven race just like the Retribution. In fact, at least he is not trying to commit genocide to do it.

Anything "evil" that Cryx has done the other factions have done just as bad if not worse.

Spoken like a true Tharamite. Besides, Cryx uses slavery. You obey the master or you are disciplined.

Cryx aren't the only ones. Khador believe in undying loyalty to the motherland. In Menoth, I'm pretty sure they hunt down and kill anyone who isn't a Menite. Plus your soul serves for all eternity too.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

Mordekiem wrote:
Cryx isn't all bad. They just want to get rid of the other bad dragons.

They are into recycling and are very accepting of any and all cultures. They don't treat anyone different.

Piracy? Slavery? Nothing that the other nations don't do.

People complain about necromancy, but it is really just using what resources that are available. And Menoth and Morrow both use necromancy. What do you think bringing the Avatar back to life is? Healing and resurrection is pretty similar magic/science to necromancy. It is pretty much the same thing just one sounds nicer than the other because people don't really understand necromancy.

Yes, sometimes Cryx get caught up in things and people misunderstand them, but the ends justify the means, right? Goreshade is just trying to save the elven race just like the Retribution. In fact, at least he is not trying to commit genocide to do it.

Anything "evil" that Cryx has done the other factions have done just as bad if not worse.

Spoken like a true Tharamite. Besides, Cryx uses slavery. You obey the master or you are disciplined.

Cryx aren't the only ones. Khador believe in undying loyalty to the motherland. In Menoth, I'm pretty sure they hunt down and kill anyone who isn't a Menite. Plus your soul serves for all eternity too.

Khador is more of a Facist Monarch. Menoth is at least semi-tolerant of Morrowans in that they won't always go out of their way to convert/kill them and they have choice. Cryx is little more than just servitude to a master who serves a master with only limited free will to high ranking necromancers.

Grey Templar wrote:Mechanithralls long ago had their souls ripped out. They're nothing more than puppets made of dead flesh.

Healing and Resurrection involves bringing the dead person back to life. There is no life in a Thrall.

And its the Harbinger, not the Avatar. The Avatar is a Warjack.

Ah yes, Harbringer, thanks for clearing that up. And what would you consider life, then? A thrall is a bit more than a puppet. It thinks and acts on orders. And please don't say a soul makes something alive since we have soulless creatures in both legion and retribution.

Surtur wrote:Khador is more of a Facist Monarch. Menoth is at least semi-tolerant of Morrowans in that they won't always go out of their way to convert/kill them and they have choice. Cryx is little more than just servitude to a master who serves a master with only limited free will to high ranking necromancers.

Oh, based on all that happens in Cryx it seems the iron liches and plenty of other people have quite a bit of leeway as to their activities. Goreshade in particular is a great example of someone who has a lot of free will and does what they want. Besides, it isn't so much of them being a "master" as it is Cryxians being dedicated to a cause.

Cryx doesn't always convert/kill everyone either. And call Khador what you want, but it still demands that it's people join the military and fight and die for their country. Since everyone has to enlist they are not given much of a choice either now are they?

As for POM, you may run into a few semi-tolerant people, but most of them want to wipe the world of any non-menite. Preferably with fire.

Mordekiem wrote:
A thrall is a bit more than a puppet. It thinks and acts on orders.

Thralls don't think, they act on mindless impulse and under direction from someone with necromantic magic.

In Legion the soul-less are also unintelligent slaves. Ret is the only army with soul-less and intelligence in the same package but they're weirdos and outcasts.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Mordekiem wrote:
A thrall is a bit more than a puppet. It thinks and acts on orders.

Thralls don't think, they act on mindless impulse and under direction from someone with necromantic magic.

I think you need to reread your thrall history. Some thralls have minimal thoughts, focusing mostly on fighting and killing usually. Even one who is ordered to "Kill!" still is smart enough to determine who is an enemy and who is not. They have the ability to sense their surroundings, move appropriately to get around objects and attack at the right time. A puppet can literally do nothing without direct control of the puppeteer. That'd be more like a Cult of Cyriss "warjack". Who are literally puppets of their warcaster.

Also, some thralls are quite intelligent and very capable of acting on their own or with minimal direction. They can talk, think and carry out complex orders. Probably some of the smartest Cryxian thralls are the Skarlocks.

Khador requires men of a certain age to join the military as an act of service to their country. Its a right of passage and is temporary, although many stay in the military after their tour of duty is over.

This is not even ballpark similar to undead thralls who, no matter how intelligent they may be, are drawn to obey their lich masters. If you read some fluff on Deneghra, she even has to resist the pull to mindlessly serve other lich lords, and she is about as far from "thrall" as any.

Mordekiem wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Mordekiem wrote:
A thrall is a bit more than a puppet. It thinks and acts on orders.

Thralls don't think, they act on mindless impulse and under direction from someone with necromantic magic.

I think you need to reread your thrall history. Some thralls have minimal thoughts, focusing mostly on fighting and killing usually. Even one who is ordered to "Kill!" still is smart enough to determine who is an enemy and who is not. They have the ability to sense their surroundings, move appropriately to get around objects and attack at the right time. A puppet can literally do nothing without direct control of the puppeteer. That'd be more like a Cult of Cyriss "warjack". Who are literally puppets of their warcaster.

Also, some thralls are quite intelligent and very capable of acting on their own or with minimal direction. They can talk, think and carry out complex orders. Probably some of the smartest Cryxian thralls are the Skarlocks.

Depends entirely on the runes used. There's some rather nice illustrations in the old Monsternomicon detailing the different thrall runes, with straight thralls being almost literally puppets (such as Alexia's), warriors having limited self control (about as smart as a dog, with better swordsmanship) and the Skarlock being literally covered head to toe in runes that grant it intelligence and the ability to use limited magic. It's still all entirely done with necromancy, and the original soul is gone for good (either to Urcaen or as fuel in a soul cage).

 Barbarus wrote:
So disclosure: I've played two games of Warmachine so far, and I've been struggling to find a faction to run with before I drop down money. Going purely on aesthetics, I'm actually leaning towards trollbloods.

My questions then, in no particular order:

1) How different is Hordes than Warmachine?
As stated above, the rules are pretty much the same until Warlocks/beasts and Casters/jacks are concerned. Warmachine can be simplified to resource management whereas Hordes boils down to risk management. If you're starting with a few buddies, then be prepared for the 'omg fury mechanic op' whining. This is usually the case with newer players and/or smaller games.

2) Are the trollbloods a viable faction for "competitive" play? I'm not planning on trying to become a competitive player any time soon, but coming from a 40k background, I want to make sure im not investing in a faction and models that are ultimately doomed to mediocrity.
Sort of a loaded question. The game is balance enough that player skill takes precedence - disregarding a few factions. Trollbloods are in a bit of a rut at the moment, but whisperings point to some great releases with the next Hordes book. Trollbloods are a great faction to start with as they don't ignore a slew of rules (ala Cryx/Legion) and are relatively resilient via the Krielstone and Tough. If you're looking to take them to Masters tournaments than you'll really want to ramp up your skill, but as a new player overall, you'll pretty much want to just figure out how to beat Cryx. The great thing about this game is that there's no 'codex-creep' in that everything stays relatively balanced against everything else (barring four casters, but they have their bad match-ups). You won't be throwing your money away aslong as you do a little bit of reading/play-testing before purchasing.

3) Any advice you can offer on ..hrm.. how to use them / what to do with them. I'm starting from scratch here, so I need to figure out what to buy and how to use it.
Most Troll Warlocks function in a brick and just push forward - relatively easy to learn. The only ones who play a little differently are Calandra, Grim1/2, and Jarl. The faction works to buff everything to the tits and then apply copious axe to face.

4) Any general advice for hordes in general?
Trolls actually play more like a Warmachine faction than a Hordes faction. They get work done on the backs of infantry and Mulg. Watch the video batreps on End Game of Jason Flanzer and all will be revealed?

5) Is there a good guide to learning the tactics of the game or the trollbloods faction in particular anywhere? The local players have all been doing it for a long while now, and I need all the help I can get to hit the ground running.
Play as much as you can and absorb as much knowledge as you can. Best way to learn the ins and outs.


Thanks!

Mordekiem wrote:


Ah yes, Harbringer,

Woah woah woah there!

Do not pass go! do not collect $200!

Its Har-bin-ger. Not Har-bring-er.

Harbringer is not a word. Harbinger is.


Little pet peeve of any true Menoth player. Carry on, and call the Creator's vessel by her proper name

You mean the Harbringer

No.