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I just recently learned that the forces of Chaos can take a fire raptor gunship as a fast attack choice and was wondering if the gunship might replace the Heldrake as the preferred flyer for Chaos. The Heldrake has vector strike, the dreaded baleflamer, is BS3 12 12 10, with 3 hull points. Whereas the gunship has a TL Avenger boltcannon 36" str 6 AP 3 Heavy 7 (better than the baleflamer), (2) independent turret mounted TL reaper batteries 36" str 7 AP4 Heavy 4 TL, (4) hellstrike missiles 72" str 8 AP3 Ordnance 1, can deep strike, has strafing run and extra armour, is BS4 12 12 12, and has 4 hull points for only 40 points more than the Heldrake.

It seems to me that the Raptor is a "must take" for any chaos army, thoughts?

The Fire Raptor rules can be found here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

Heldrake has a 5+ invuln save, 360 attack radius, and ignores cover.

We'll see how the fire raptor is when it has official rules.

kingleir wrote:
We'll see how the fire raptor is when it has official rules.

Well, it is 40K approved. *wink wink*

Seems pretty powerful but I don't think it's an either or. I think it's a must take both.

That is if your using mental overpowered forge world stuff

I ran a Fire Raptor with my Iron Hands in my last game against nids and it was a beast. The independantly firing turrets are a great addition (since they cant ever see what the bolt cannon is shooting at) and it mulched a crone in its first turn out. The only drawback is the Ordinance rule on the missile meaning if you fire one then you arent firing anything else that turn.

I have to say a Heldrake is probably better because most of the time you don't have to worry about your opponent's dice ignoring all your wounds.

I'm sad this isn't usable for Grey Knights. Its a solid gunboat

Melcavuk
I ran a Fire Raptor with my Iron Hands in my last game against nids and it was a beast. The independantly firing turrets are a great addition (since they cant ever see what the bolt cannon is shooting at) and it mulched a crone in its first turn out. The only drawback is the Ordinance rule on the missile meaning if you fire one then you arent firing anything else that turn.

If that's the iron hands one it has POTMS which, combined with the independent turret rule means you can fire all four weapons at 4 different targets per turn!

As a gunboat I much prefer this over a storm raven for my BA!

However as this is about chaos and vs the heldrake ( got a bit carried away!) I personally fear the heldrake more... Purely because of the torrent, 360 flames that is AP3 and ignores cover. I have more chance to survive against the fire raptor.

Cover Saves against the Raptor, even with Flyers and FMCs will be disastrous. If your opponents knows what he's doing, he'll be keeping his flyers near some sort of tree line or building to get said cover saves. Sure, it's a 4+ or 5+ depending on the terrain but the Drake gets a 5++ automatically.

Now, personally, I would run 2 Drakes and 1 Fire Raptor in my fast attack slots. The Raptor has an infinitely larger array of weapons to deal with Armored Models, and as such could provide some hefty support to our ground units. The Drakes were always used to kill off infantry models, I have been lucky killing transports, but, it's main purpose is punishing people who bring MEQ bodies onto the field without transports to protect them. Anything that wasn't a 2+ save was going to be sent to hell. The Raptor covers all the issued the Drake has problems with Which makes them a GREAT combo.

Sorry to thread necro after a month and a half, but there aren't too many discussions on this subject right now.

The Fire Raptor is actually a Heavy Support choice, not Fast Attack. You don't have to take fewer Heldrakes if you don't want to . This could change when it gets a published entry, but according to the pdf (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf) it's Heavy Support.

I think it has more versatility vs the heldrake. Sure it doesn't ignore cover but it is much more effective against other flyers, with the 2 turrets that can fire independently than trying to vector strike using the heldrake. With the reaper batteries instead of the quad heavy bolters you've effectively brought 2 quad guns on your aircraft, with only 12" less range. Never mind about any missiles.

That being said, I would agree that this isn't an either or. Just take both!

Forgeworld.

Loses demon, but gains BS5vs. ground targets, a multi-shot version of its weapon and can also take two ultra-autocannon batteries? And missiles? And independent fire? And hover? And can take immune to melta?

No wonder people say GW doesn't care about the quality of its rules so long as it can sell models...

Keep in mind that the full rules for the model are out in Imperial Armour 2 Volume 2, but unfortunately it doesn't list anything about it being available to use for Chaos like the experimental rules.
The full rules are basically just less exciting, only optional upgrade is standard autocannons instead of the quad heavy bolters, and the hellstrike missiles are replaced by stormstrikes, which are Str 8 AP2 Concussive.
Makes sense since you can now fire all the missiles, PotMS the cannon at another target, and then turret fire at two other targets in just one turn.

As for Chaos, I think you'd be fine running the experimental rules if your opponent allows forgeworld, and it seems like a great addition to your heldrakes in creating a flying circus.

Wait wha- no longer available for chaos as per the new book? That sucks!

 Ailaros wrote:

Loses demon, but gains BS5vs. ground targets, a multi-shot version of its weapon and can also take two ultra-autocannon batteries? And missiles? And independent fire? And hover? And can take immune to melta?

No wonder people say GW doesn't care about the quality of its rules so long as it can sell models...

Why are these bad rules? Your wording makes it seem like the Fire Raptor is grossly stronger than the Heldrake

-It costs 250 points with the Autocannons and ceramite armor
-the "multi shot version of the heldrake weapon" is heavy 7 and thus capped at how many targets it can hit, as well as being subject to to-hit rolls, and allows cover saves, and it has a frontal firing arc unlike the helturkey
-it loses vector strike and It Will Not Die
-and the missiles are mediocre.

It's actually really scaled well next to a Stormraven. Loss of transport capacity, for a bump in damage output. I don't really see how these rules aren't quality. It's a very fair unit, I'd say. Quite comparable to the Heldrake.

-TheCaptain

 Reanimator wrote:
Wait wha- no longer available for chaos as per the new book? That sucks!

Well the book is specifically for loyalist Space Marines, so there's nothing saying that Chaos won't get the Fire Raptor later on, especially since they bothered to give the Chaos one its own rules and options in the experimental rules.
So while there's technically not a legal way to run it right now, I imagine only a tournament or non-friendly match would stop you from playing the experimental rules.

Yeah, I'd definitely not rule it out yet. I haven't read the latest IA that's totally dedicated to Space Marines, but it's no surprise that there aren't any Chaos rules in the book... c'mon.

Consider that in the Dreadclaw announcement from Forge World, they mentioned an upcoming publication in which the rules for the drop pod would be found. I predict this is where the rules for the Chaos Fire Raptor will be, as well.

If not, I will be butthurt for a little while, and then use the Fire Raptor as a Storm Eagle. *shrug*

If you've ever considered a hades autocannon heldrake then take the fire raptor instead otherwise if you only care about MEQ answers take the baleflamer

So- I decided to email FW about it. They said:

"Thank you for your email. You can continue to use the experimental rules for the Chaos Space Marine Fire Raptor as we have not yet published rules for it. These are still experimental rules though and you should let your opponents know this before each game."

Which is essentially what we arrived at. Thought you might like to know what the publisher was saying anyway.

I'm glad to hear it, removes any doubt for the moment.

@ Wrenthefaceless, I agree. Sad...

Heyo. Its been a while since anybody was on this thread, but since I found it when googling I should point out that there are rules for the chaos fire raptor gunship on page 76 of imperial armor 13. Im not sure which one came out first, IA 13 or the PDF rules that you can find by googling, but Im using the IA 13 one as it seems more legit. Although I am lucky that my gaming crew doesn't care about Forge World and rulings and whatever. We are all just there to kill each other and have fun

18 months is a long time, and we've had many more fire raptor threads since then.

My favored flyer for CSM is actually the Blight Drones. Not as shooty as the Fire Raptor, but relatively cheap and really durable with a Battle Cannon. Not bad, imo.

 bombthejuice wrote:
Heyo. Its been a while since anybody was on this thread,

Welcome to Dakka! We have a rule about letting dormant threads lie, as it is likely the participants in the original thread have moved along to different conversations once a thread has been still for more than a few weeks. In such cases, you're welcome to start a new thread.