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Hello Dakka,

I haven't played 40k in a long time and I'm getting back into 6th edition now. I searched the forum for an answer to this question, but couldn't find it, maybe my search-fu is bad today:

When a unit A is inside area terrain and shoots a unit B outside of said area terrain, does unit B get a 5+ cover save because unit A shot through area terrain?

I'm asking because in 5th ed, there was this rule of having to be within 2" of the terrain edge so that your enemy doesn't get a cover save from the terrain. How is it done now? I couldn't find a clear corresponding passage in the rulebook.

Thanks!

Nope, not a thing at all this edition

So...unit B gets no cover, because it is not in area terrain itself? unit A could stand inside the rear edge of a jungle forest and shoot through 20" of area terrain and unit B gets no cover save at all?

 Witzkatz wrote:
So...unit B gets no cover, because it is not in area terrain itself? unit A could stand inside the rear edge of a jungle forest and shoot through 20" of area terrain and unit B gets no cover save at all?

Unless it's a forest.

Oh, okay? Ah! Page 102 in the rulebook is what you are referring to, right? "Similarly, if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest then the model being shot benefits from a 5+ cover save." And this also includes units inside a forest shooting through parts of a forest at units outside the forest, right? I think I get it now.

I don't quite get this, either.

I also just started to get back into 40k, and I had a kill team tourney yesterday where I had one game versus orks. In that game, his gretchin simply failed to die to my bolters simply because my line of sight went across a crater, which was classified as 5+ cover save area terrain and granted those gretchin 4+ cover saves when they threw themselves intto the dirt and took cover.

Did we play that wrong?

 Skylifter wrote:
I don't quite get this, either.

I also just started to get back into 40k, and I had a kill team tourney yesterday where I had one game versus orks. In that game, his gretchin simply failed to die to my bolters simply because my line of sight went across a crater, which was classified as 5+ cover save area terrain and granted those gretchin 4+ cover saves when they threw themselves intto the dirt and took cover.

Did we play that wrong?

Since it was a crater that you had to trace LOS over, I don't think they should've gotten a cover save under all circumstances - because craters are not forests, like Chrysis pointed out above. However, I guess you could argue that the MODEL for the crater was perhaps high enough that the gretchin actually were kind-of covered by terrain bits, which could give them a regular 5+ cover save because 25%+ of a gretchin model was obscured...?

Other thoughts about this?

But area terrain doesn't work that way, or does it?

If it is area terrain, its actual model isn't even taken into account, right?

If the Gretchen were inside the crater, then yes.

If they are not inside then the models which are 25% hidden by the crater get a cover. If none of the models are hidden by the crater then no cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For area terrain, the model has to be inside said area terrain. You don't get a save just because the shot goes over that terrain

clively wrote:
If the Gretchen were inside the crater, then yes.

If they are not inside then the models which are 25% hidden by the crater get a cover. If none of the models are hidden by the crater then no cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For area terrain, the model has to be inside said area terrain. You don't get a save just because the shot goes over that terrain

So a perfectly flat piece of terrain would give no cover saves while shooting "through", but a huge crater with a real ridge that blocks LOS will provide cover due to the 25% rule in this case. That sounds reasonable.

I will section it out to make it easy to understand.

6th Edition follows True Line of Sight. If the model or unit you are firing at from the firing models perspective is 25% obscured for any reason, you get a flat cover save of 5+. Ruins will give a 4+ cover for the obscurement.

Then you have Area terrain. If any part of a models base is within area terrain, they immediately gain a 5+ cover save. It doesn't matter how open they may look, if they're in the terrain they're in the terrain.

Yes models that have small profiles could get a cover save from the height of the crater even if they weren't in it, but ONLY if they're at least 25% obscured by it.

Hope I have helped

Yes, that helps, thank you!

 Witzkatz wrote:
Oh, okay? Ah! Page 102 in the rulebook is what you are referring to, right? "Similarly, if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest then the model being shot benefits from a 5+ cover save." And this also includes units inside a forest shooting through parts of a forest at units outside the forest, right? I think I get it now.

This does not include units inside a forest; they are firing out of, not through the forest; through would be the forest is intervening terrain between your firing unit and the target unit.

That one is contentious, I've seen it argued both ways, but our local group plays it that models firing out of a forest do give their targets a 5+ cover save and here's why


The rule on p. 102 says
"If one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest (because they're shooting at a model beyond the forest), then the model being shot benefits from a 5+ cover save."

Does the LOS go through the forest? Yes
Are they shooting at a unit beyond the boundary of the forest? Yes
Then they get a 5+ save.

Kel,
It is a debatable point, because 'through' has been used in several different ways throughout the book. This means we can not apply a single definition of the word 'through' to all rules without one group or another breaking. Personally, I let them shoot out without giving cover saves if asked because it is ridiculous to think a unit setting themselves up in a superior firing position is then going to blindly fire in the enemies direction. All because they didn't take the terrain they where setting up into account and decided to point their guns straight at the trunk of a tree. Still I've had some people complain about that though, often when they want the 5+ cover save surprisingly enough, so I always let them decide as either way it doesn't bother me.

Tau, ignore cover is our thing!

The Rules in question are Clear which through they mean; from outside, through.

You get a cover save for Being "within the boundary" of the forrest. The "Similarly, if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their LOS through a forest (because they are firing at a model beyond the forest) then the model being shot" receives a save.

These rules are very clear as to which through they mean, 23" of forest that your marine is in will not grant a save to the Ork right outside the forest from your bolter round. But a 1" strip of forest between the Marine and the Ork does grant a cover save.

Fprest are 99% of the time on area terrain designation pieces to allow for the fact you need to get your models in there.

Now if your going tk claim firing out of it doesnt gramt cpver then I contend that you dont get cover in the forest either.

To be firing from within the saod terrain you have fire through the terrain amd no dont think placing the models on the edge can bypass this.

The last guy to pull this crap at our tournament was told to mark wheew his models were them remove them. Upon whixh the forest was made to look like a forest amd not just a few trees on a board piece and told he had to now get hismodels in without moving the trees amd then try and draw unobscured LoS to which he replied well I can't.

Dont think of the fprest as one or 2 trees to allow ypur mpdels access but a build up of umdergrowth over grpwth etc. Or use the above solution .

Even better solution still dont use foresta

wargamer1985 wrote:
Fprest are 99% of the time on area terrain designation pieces to allow for the fact you need to get your models in there.

Now if your going tk claim firing out of it doesnt gramt cpver then I contend that you dont get cover in the forest either.

Just being in area terrain grants you cover. You are contradicting yourself.

To be firing from within the saod terrain you have fire through the terrain amd no dont think placing the models on the edge can bypass this.

The last guy to pull this crap at our tournament was told to mark wheew his models were them remove them. Upon whixh the forest was made to look like a forest amd not just a few trees on a board piece and told he had to now get hismodels in without moving the trees amd then try and draw unobscured LoS to which he replied well I can't.

Dont think of the fprest as one or 2 trees to allow ypur mpdels access but a build up of umdergrowth over grpwth etc. Or use the above solution .

Even better solution still dont use foresta

I would take that challenge, and replay the movement phase that put me into the forest to place me behind the forest, now we both get the cover saves my opponent wants, and I get a full 6" of movement(as opposed to the difficult terrain I had to move through); plus bonus: impassable forest for the rest of the game.

Also, this is a Rule debate forum:
It matters not what an individual Organized does in their campaign, you can quote one and the opposing side can quote ten so it does not matter what one does in their own Tournament.

Area terrain cannot grant you better than 5+ cover correct? I played against a guy that liked to declare ruins area terrain and then give himself a 4+ cover save since ruins grant a 4+ cover save. Even when I flanked him and his models were plainly visible without obscuration he would claim a 4+ cover due to area terrain. It is one or the other correct? My impression is that area terrain can never be better than 5+

Area terrain provides a 5+ cover save. Being obscured by ruins grants a 4+ cover save. Some unite can improve (or worsen) cover saves of terrain.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Area terrain cannot grant you better than 5+ cover correct? I played against a guy that liked to declare ruins area terrain and then give himself a 4+ cover save since ruins grant a 4+ cover save. Even when I flanked him and his models were plainly visible without obscuration he would claim a 4+ cover due to area terrain. It is one or the other correct? My impression is that area terrain can never be better than 5+

Area terrain gives a 5+. That doesn't mean it can't be better (or worse), just means that the default is 5+. The rules don't really cover mixing the various terrain types with all that much detail, so when you start doing that it comes down to player agreement.

Yes, it *is* clear...

"You get a cover save for Being "within the boundary" of the forrest. The "Similarly, if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their LOS through a forest (because they are firing at a model beyond the forest) then the model being shot" receives a save. "


If the model is in the forest, then its LoS does trace through the forest. How can it not? It has to go through the forest to get out...

There is nothing in the rule saying it must originate from outside of the forest, you are making that up.

^^ This
From a logistics standpoint ( and i know, yes, yes, don't bring real world logic into games) if I'm getting a cover save for being 5 trees deep into a forest and it's hard for the bad guys to see me, it stands to reason that there are in fact 5 trees between me and the bad guy, making him harder to see as well.

I'm happy that this actually sparked a discussion, because me and my local group were also arguing about the definition of "through" in this case. I would side with nwabudikemorgan and coredump in this case; I also understand "through" as being fulfilled if, during the 'measure distance' part of the shooting phase, any part of this distance covered is forest area terrain, regardless of whether the shooting unit is inside or outside of said forest.

Just to hop back to something earlier, and I could be wrong but Ithought the 25% rule was only for vehicles. As far as I know, as soon as part of an infantry model is covered, he gets his cover save. That's why monstrous creatures have such an easy time getting cover saves versus some of the monster vehicles (maulerfiend, defiler, ...).

Redwyrmling wrote:
Just to hop back to something earlier, and I could be wrong but Ithought the 25% rule was only for vehicles. As far as I know, as soon as part of an infantry model is covered, he gets his cover save. That's why monstrous creatures have such an easy time getting cover saves versus some of the monster vehicles (maulerfiend, defiler, ...).

Nope, its 25% for everything. For vehicles it's just their only way to get cover.

Page 91, bottom left, bold.
"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured."

It is in fact, not 25% for everything

 nwabudikemorgan wrote:
Page 91, bottom left, bold.
"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured."

It is in fact, not 25% for everything

I think you missed the point of my post

Vehicles say area terrain doesn't work normally, and they need to actually be 25% covered.

Forests, however, work differently and are a special case. Vehicles can get cover from forests, I believe, without it having to be filled with physical tree models.