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Well, I just fought some HE, led by Alarielle bunkered in a big unit of White Lions. She miscast, but had the Banner of the World Dragon in the unit as well, so my first question is: does that banner also protect the unit from the effects of a Miscast (Calamitous Detonation?). That sucked.

Then she "Dwellers from Below"-ed my big unit of Nurgle Warriors and kept things alive with Lore of Life.

Since I was playing WoC, and even my Skullcrushers were nerfed because they had ensorcelled weapons!

So...what do I do against that banner and a hard unit with no shooting (mundane would obviously be the way to go) and a generally fairly slow army which is getting whittled down by shooting and magic while they try to cross the field?

Any advice is appreciated!

One thing high elves hates is impact hits. So throw some chariots at those white lions and that should do a heap of damage without their 2++ save.

Also a chimera with flaming breath can cause some harm.

Cool, thanks @Turalon. I did have a Chimera, and I had a tooled-up Daemon Prince (with a magic weapon...) as well. I think if I had flown those two aggressively at them and tied them up I might have been able to do some damage.

The mundane breath weapon makes sense--would a Daemonic gift breath weapon be considered magical?

Man, that banner is something else...

I don't believe that the Daemonic gift BW is magical. Basically, if it doesn't say it's magical, then it's not. The DP's attacks are magical because it says so; enscorcelled weapons provide magical attacks because they say so; and all magic weapons have magical attacks because the BRB says so. IIRC, the army book doesn't say it's magical, so it's not.

Chimera is one thing you don't want to use. He can fire the breath, but chimera survives by out-killing his enemy. And the WL have high WS ASF+ASL = I speed which is > Chimera speed, and they have GWs. They'll chop him apart in one or two turns max.

Gorebeast chariots do okay.

Ogres with Nurgle marks can do okay. I'm not sure who comes out ahead, ultimately. Hell, even chaos warriors with Nurgle marks. It's such a pain.

I just ran the numbers on chaos trolls and it looks like, to my surprise, the lions beat them by a pretty substantial amount--on cost. You'll be doing about 7 net wounds and taking 4 wounds per turn, so you can win an attrition war perhaps, but Trolls cost a lot more than that 175% difference (269%). If they don't go Stupid or other stuff happens, they'd win combat, but there are likely a lot more lions and they'll stay steadfast and they probably got a hero or champ in there too. So Trolls would need help, especially if they are life healing.

Yikes! Thanks for doing the math, Duke, and for the thought process. I like Ogres, generally, with WoC, and at least they're fast. I think I've got to get both some numbers (for attrition) and hitting power in there. I was hoping to get my additional hand weapon-armed Nurgle Warriors with Festus into combat with them, and had a Gorebeast (MoN) chariot alongside as well, but they both just took so long to get there! That chariot, because it can't march, just really takes a long time to get within a reasonable charge range. And then if you fail the charge, you're stuck in no-man's land. Meanwhile, he hammered me with "Dwellers" and shooting from Sisters of Avelorn (whose flaming bows negated my Regen from Festus...).

All together, it was a good list for fighting me (he knew what I was running, as I'm kind of play-testing before a tournament) and my list.

I'm really starting to repeat myself here, but I hate that Banner...I had a bunch of hard-hitting units, but most with magical attacks.

I don't think AHW is worth it. Especially against this mob. Not even Trolls, who have it SUPER cheap, would benefit, because it's only +3 attacks. For Warriors it would only be +5ish attacks. But you have to pay for your entire unit. You're trying to win per cost. All the back ranks are capped out with supporting attacks of 1. White Lions maximize this by having TWO supporting ranks of WS5 I5 S6 attacks. That's what you want.

Warriors to fight WL a Halber will completely negate their armor (+16%) and make kill on one less to-wound (+16%). For 21% more cost. It's not as simple as 16+16 = 32 of course. Since the armor save only comes in after to-wound and only after to-hit. But it's "pretty" nearly a wash in cost as far as I can see. And even if it isn't vs. them, it will help vs. other targets. AHW just aren't as good a choice I think.

You could try a fast moving character built for survival to hold the unit up. I know combat won't stop the magic entirely but you can limit their movement and positioning for magic as well as whittle down the WL numbers.

Honestly I think Warriors with MoN and Halberbs are probably the best, just because you can out fight the WLs, but as you said the unit might get dweller-ed before reaching combat.

For the record, I play HE as one of my armies and never use the Banner... I think it is over the top.

S5 impact hits is elves' worst nightmare, so bring a Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n of chariots and crash them all against that unit. There is no better solution.

You should cast doom & darkness on those WLs first to gak on their stubborn LD10.

I've done that so many times on my local meta that HE players use PGs instead of WLs now.


On a personal note, chariots with WL heads impaled on their pointy sticks seem to affect HE players' morale to the point of performing awful mistakes trying to avoid them. Funny as hell.

adicto20 wrote:
Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n

LMAO!
I didn't see any one answer the question on whether miscasts would be covered under the banner's ability. They are not. The unit would get no protection from miscast damage.

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.


So yes the banner does work against miscasts.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Well, I just fought some HE, led by Alarielle bunkered in a big unit of White Lions. She miscast, but had the Banner of the World Dragon in the unit as well, so my first question is: does that banner also protect the unit from the effects of a Miscast (Calamitous Detonation?). That sucked.

Then she "Dwellers from Below"-ed my big unit of Nurgle Warriors and kept things alive with Lore of Life.

While that's still a heaping pile of steaming cheese, at least be super thankful that they're running Life and not a Light Coven version of that list...
How would you enjoy 1st or 2nd turn getting a double S7 Banishment to the face?! Or watching the likes of Pha's Protection/Speed of Light going off at +8 to-cast (with bubble effect?!)

And yes, the banner will protect the unit from any wounds inflicted by a Miscast, but it does not protect from a wizard getting sucked into the Realm of Chaos, or losing wizard lv's, or losing power dice from the casting pool.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Since I was playing WoC, and even my Skullcrushers were nerfed because they had ensorcelled weapons!

So...what do I do against that banner and a hard unit with no shooting (mundane would obviously be the way to go) and a generally fairly slow army which is getting whittled down by shooting and magic while they try to cross the field?

Any advice is appreciated!

As he's Unbreakable, you can always slam your Daemon Prince into the unit's flank or rear and hold them up indefinitely. Yes they'll have their stupid 2++, but unless they reform they won't be throwing many attacks back at you and WoC DP's can be notoriously difficult to dent in combat.
The only real kicker is that the Everb**** has Heroic Killing Blow vs. him, AND, she'll inflict an automatic D6/S4 hits every magic phase vs. him but then suffer -D3 to-cast in return. (without the Banner of Averlorn, this can really help you control his magic phase)
It's not the best option at all, (I'd keep the Prince as cheap as possible and focus entirely on protection and ignore taking any magic Lv's), but you can't beat the Unbreakable aspect of it, and it might just hold the unit up long enough to get something nasty into support.

Otherwise bring out the Stubborn Hat 3++/re-roll 1's Tzeentch Lord on disc to do roughly the same thing. Just give him a basic hand weapon and no magic weapon, then fly him into the unit's flank/rear and start grinding away.

If you really want to fight cheese with cheese, then bring a flying Slaany Prince and go for a turn 1 6-diced area-effect Cacophonic Choir! Instantly clear any chaff caught in range, reduce a rank on nearby ranked units, maybe maul a Phoenix and then screw over your opponent's entire movement phase!
Actually, Lore of Slaanesh/Shadow is amazing at dealing with a Skillbanner deathstar. Acquiescence/Miasma will have the unit going nowhere for the entire game due to either 'random movement' or -1D3 movement. Caco Choir is the most broken spell in the game hands down. Phantasmagoria is plain nasty, especially if you can combo it alongside Treason of Tzeentch.



One tactic that Daemon players use to combat this menace is to nail the Skillbanner unit with Treason of Tzeentch, then Doom & Darkness and then panic a nearby unit. Ld5 with no IP/BSB re-roll is terrifying for any deathstar build.
Again, the problem is landing those spells and then getting them both off... Daemons use it a lot because we can plow through the Tzeentch spells quite quickly with units of Horrors, but with WoC you'll likely need a Lv4 Death caster + 4Lv's of Lore of Tzeentch in order to be safely assured of having both spells.

You can always chaff it up with Doggies/Mounted Marauders and then kill the rest of his army as well. (and if he's going Life it's even easier as his only huge damage dealer is Dwellers)

With 2-3 Chimeras, you can try flying around the unit's flanks/rear and breath fire all over him... As Daemon players are well aware, a 5++ save on 11-14pts models is still very average at the end of the day and the damage will quickly add-up.

Mass chariots works wonders thanks to Impact Hits.

MoN Warriors supported by Lore of Nurgle can out-grind the unit...
Miasma will turn the tables and have him hitting on 5's while you'll hit on 3's AND also swing first. Curse of the Leper can help to really reduce the damage of his S6 attacks, while Blades giving out poisoned attacks isn't awful.

Hell, even just leaving all your 'Magical Attacks' units at home and just fighting him with a bunch of strait-up mortals! Or else at the very least, don't charge that unit with things like Skullcrushers.


Most of all, be thankful you're only WoC and not Daemons! (where even our impact hits & stomps are magical attacks, and chaffing & magic are the only answers...)

To be honest, I'm going to suggest just chaff-ing it. Units of Chaos Warhounds should help hold it up for a turn or two. It doesn't get rid of the Magic threat, but it'll stop it chopping up so many units.

626's suggestion of hitting it with an Unbreakable Prince isn't bad. MoN, Flight, Scaled Skin, Chaos Armour and the Dawnstone costs only 345 if my calculations are correct, which is significantly cheaper than the Lionstar. They'll be hitting you on 5s, wounding on 3s admittedly, but then you have 3 5+ saves against the damage. Considering base sizes, you should be able to hang on for a while, especially if you challenge for the first few rounds. At the very least, it will allow you to get some Warhounds in position to chaff them.

To be honest, I'd never try and kill a Deathstar, especially one with access to Regrowth, as you'll just end up chucking too many points at it.

MarkyMark wrote:
Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.


So yes the banner does work against miscasts.

My bad. I got it mixed up with this one:

Q: Is damage caused by a miscast counted as a spell? Can a model
with Magic Resistance add it to its ward save against it? (p34)
A: No to both questions.

But since it also works against magical attacks it still works. A good reason to play High Elves.

i just use a big bunch of shield warriors with mark of tzeentch buffed up by a flying nurgle prince nearby

The lions are attacking in 3 ranks, remember, and cost a whopping 13 each with S5 (making warrior save 6+).

The warriors are 17 each with pretty much the same stats. -1S +1T and makes the WL 6+ save. The 2 attacks match the WL.

The TZ mark and shield parry I think pull the warriors ahead on cost.

Is the BotWD carried by a Noble? Does he have a powerful combat weapon?

Wulfrik might be an option. Nominate the Noble, challenge him out (he can't refuse), and that will take out the banner hopefully.

The banner is not carried by a character. It is a standard magic banner for the units standard bearer. That being said, if it's a proper deathstar, chances are there is a unique magic banner on a BSB in the same unit, the banner of avelorn. It greatly aides in the units survival, effectively making alarielle a level 8 caster on that unit. The BSB at that point will not be very well protected, except by magic and the BotWD. So if wulfrik doesn't have a magic weapon, he could at least hinder the unit a bit by attacking either the BSB or alariele herself; granted, both are still ASF elf heroe's, the noble can be S6, and alarialle will boast HKB, so don't expect a push-over fight.

Best way to combat this particular star is to throw cheap mundane units at it, or avoid it entirely. Preferably things with a bit of punch. Extra attacks typically never win out over higher strength. If you aren't defaulted to at least S5, get to that first before you go for more attacks. At least then you won't have to worry about elf armour.

By and large the best thing you can do is non-magical impact hits. The more you can get, and the cheaper they are, the better. Aside from that, just try and hold them up. WoC don't have many large throw away units, but that's really what you want to do. The star can easily cast you into oblivion, so don't even bother trying to out magic it. If he takes a secondary mage, expect high magic, and expect drain magic to make whatever hex's you put out to be irrelevant when the time comes.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
The lions are attacking in 3 ranks, remember, and cost a whopping 13 each with S5 (making warrior save 6+).

The warriors are 17 each with pretty much the same stats. -1S +1T and makes the WL 6+ save. The 2 attacks match the WL.

The TZ mark and shield parry I think pull the warriors ahead on cost.

No, Lions are S6 with their great weapons, meaning they ignore 4+ saves entirely.


Tzeentch sword & board are normally a great grinding unit, but vs. BotWD Caucasian Lions, the mark of Nurgle is massively superior due to it's -1 to-hit penalty.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Tzeentch sword & board are normally a great grinding unit, but vs. BotWD Caucasian Lions, the mark of Nurgle is massively superior due to it's -1 to-hit penalty.

So true. Considering re-rolls from ASF don't happen because of the WLs having great weapons this is far better than the buff to their parry save.

Sword and board tizz warriors are on 3+/ 5++ parry.

They retain more protection than the 4+ save/ -1 to hit nurgle warriors.

Would be curious for someone to run the wounds taken/ wounds given numbers for a block of MoT hw & sh warriors and a MoN halberds unit vs WLs.

Tz warriors are still wounding on 3s but the MoN halbs would be ignoring armor, wounding on 2s.

Hmm

Experiment 626 wrote:
No, Lions are S6 with their great weapons, meaning they ignore 4+ saves entirely.

But he didn't say that, he said shield. And they are 3+.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
No, Lions are S6 with their great weapons, meaning they ignore 4+ saves entirely.

But he didn't say that, he said shield. And they are 3+.

No, but you said Lions were S5 and thus made Warriors' save 6+, which is what I was correcting.

It's still a 6+ save, which is what I said. But yeah, it's S6 and 3+ base.

Would be curious for someone to run the wounds taken/ wounds given numbers for a block of MoT hw & sh warriors and a MoN halberds unit vs WLs.

Assuming Warriors are in ranks of 6 and Lions in ranks of 7 (the most common), both units with maximum supporting attacks (18 for WoC and 21 for WL), we get:
WoTzeench = 5 WL and 4.86 WoT dead a turn
WoNurgle = 7.5 WL and 5.83 WoN dead a turn
Tzeench has of course the added advantage to mitigate any shooting / magic on the way in

I faced a similar list with WoC.

I think the best hope frankly is to either tie up that unit with cheapish misdirectors and then kill everything else in his army - none of which would likely stand a chance against you. In my battle the High Elf player was a little timid with that unit because it was such a point sink that he didn't want to risk getting multi-charged. As everyone else has said, he'll chew up most anything you can put at it, but if he gets over-aggressive and you can get your Nurgle Warriors in the front, you get your Chimera in the back, get a good spell off or drop a Hellcannon template on it before hand for some whittling.... easier said than done, but....

Why would he be afraid of the Hellcannon? It has magical attacks.

For the breath weapons, I'd definitely be laying those babies down as templates rather than going for the 2D6 hits in combat.

Another possible option (and my planned route) is to supplement chaff avoidance with Acquiescence or Shadow signature (so they don't do anything), or tank them with a character (preferably one with a mundane weapon and soulfeeder).

Don't have my book around, but a Lord on Disc with MoT, halberd, scaled skin, third eye, crown of command, 4+ ward, soul feeder, and breath weapon should be able to lay the hurt down while surviving for a while/ indefinitely.

Fly, Str 6/ T5, 1+/ 3++ (re-roll 1's), and the all important stubborn/ soul feeder to stick around. Breath weapon is for taste. Drop it on the way in or add 2d6 to the combat res.

I'm confident that would be more points than the typical WL build though... May math is rough at best, but with average frontage/ formation the Lord would take, on average, less than 1 wound per combat phase. While the lord will do closer to 3, plus the breath one turn. Soul feeder will probably trigger at least once, so the Lord could survive... maybe... 3-4 rounds on average before dying and stubborn LD 9 is *probably* not going to run.

But be that as it may, I have never run the "unkillable BSB/ Lord/ Prince" under the new Chaos Book, but would do it to counter the BotWD.

Pervertdhermit wrote:
Don't have my book around, but a Lord on Disc with MoT, halberd, scaled skin, third eye, crown of command, 4+ ward, soul feeder, and breath weapon should be able to lay the hurt down while surviving for a while/ indefinitely.

Fly, Str 6/ T5, 1+/ 3++ (re-roll 1's), and the all important stubborn/ soul feeder to stick around. Breath weapon is for taste. Drop it on the way in or add 2d6 to the combat res.

I'm confident that would be more points than the typical WL build though... May math is rough at best, but with average frontage/ formation the Lord would take, on average, less than 1 wound per combat phase. While the lord will do closer to 3, plus the breath one turn. Soul feeder will probably trigger at least once, so the Lord could survive... maybe... 3-4 rounds on average before dying and stubborn LD 9 is *probably* not going to run.

But be that as it may, I have never run the "unkillable BSB/ Lord/ Prince" under the new Chaos Book, but would do it to counter the BotWD.

Don't forget he may spend an extra two or three turns in challenges which may have it's own drawbacks...or advantages. Can a single model overrun a whole unit in this game? Maybe not likely if the BSB is close at hand, but the possibility is there.