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Getting in challenges would just root the Lions in place, allowing you time to flank them or set up support charges.

While that doesn't stop magic necessarily, it takes away half of the threat as you clean up the remainder of their army. Frankly, if the Wizard is foolish enough to go for HKB shenanigans or the BSB has what it takes to grind out the Chaos Lord it still prolongs the combat and potentially takes off the Uber- Caster.

Speaking of which, I can't recall if a wizard who refuses a challenge can cast in the next turn... at the very least the leader ship would be slightly reduced for the unit.

Another option is to take Tzeentch wizards and bring Final Trans to the game.

One casting is enough to erase roughly 33% of the unit, plus you get a shot at each character in there who can be insta-killed on a 6.
Get it off twice and you're more likely to bag at least one character.

Chariots, chariots, chariots, chariots.

White lions are expensive, but only have a 5+ save against impact hits. At S5 you're wounding him on 2s, so each chariot is killing 3 elves on average with impact hits alone. If it's an Alarielle star it's probably around 1,000 points, so you should easily be able to hit it in multiple directions and get a flank charge in (though naval discipline on the BSB will probably deny you a rear-charge).

By the time those white lions have eaten your chariots (which they will), the unit will hopefully be substantially depleted and you can throw something like warriors or skullcrushers in to finish them off.

The other alternative is to just....not deal with it. If you can feed it a couple hundred points of chaff and pick everything else off you'll be doing fine.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Chariots, chariots, chariots, chariots.

White lions are expensive, but only have a 5+ save against impact hits. At S5 you're wounding him on 2s, so each chariot is killing 3 elves on average with impact hits alone. If it's an Alarielle star it's probably around 1,000 points, so you should easily be able to hit it in multiple directions and get a flank charge in (though naval discipline on the BSB will probably deny you a rear-charge).

By the time those white lions have eaten your chariots (which they will), the unit will hopefully be substantially depleted and you can throw something like warriors or skullcrushers in to finish them off.

The other alternative is to just....not deal with it. If you can feed it a couple hundred points of chaff and pick everything else off you'll be doing fine.

If you're going the combat route in any way, then you should most definitely ensure you have the spell Treason of Tzeentch to hit the Bannerstar with on the turn you charge in.

Forcing the HE player to pass a single Stubborn Ld8 test is godly when compared to the almost natural Stubborn Ld10 w/re-roll HE's normally rock on their deathstars.

Personally, I like Galrauch + airforce for elf killing.

Galrauch, flying exaulted tzeench BSB, 5 chariots of tzeench, 3 renging/breathe chimmeras, 2 tzeench spawns, and leftover points gives you 2x5 vanguarding chaos hounds (2400 points total).

You have 7 breathe weapons and 5 units with impact hits, 4 units with thunder stomp.

Galrauch is packing the standard S4 breathe, but also spits out a T test or remove from play breathe. With the 4 flying breathe weapons, you might be able to thin the white lions to the point where the characters don't get a look out.

Wow! I went away on a trip and didn't check, and found this treasure tome of advice waiting for me! Thanks to all of you! I especially appreciate the following:

1.) Getting affirmation that, yes, his list is cheesy
2) Basic WoC mundane units can do some damage, particularly with Halberds
3.) The Challenge route works to tie up the Deathstar, allowing me to either:
a) Flank the unit
b) Ignore the unit and destroy everything else
4.) Chariots' impact hits can do some damage if en masse
5.) The Tzeentch route might be a good one to explore in future (right now I have Khorne & converted Nurgle models...)
6.) Not a happy revelation, but thanks for the clarifying rule for "Miscasts count as magical attacks." Dang, that banner is pretty influential.
7.) Galrauch, huh? Nice.

My questions out of all of this are:

(i) How do you run so many Warriors with Halberds? Do you convert them from Knights' weapons? Or buy the metal arms (expensive and lame, GW!)? Or just say "counts as?" (That wouldn't work in a tournament, right?)

I went with the additional hand weapon choice as a way of compensating for the lack of Frenzy with Nurgle, rather than going Khorne with Shields (which I also like--better save, and still the additional attack). So, I totally hear you about AHW--it's not great, but I figured that in a Horde formation (or 6 across in a smaller game) at least my front row would be hitting with some power, and as attrition happens, my retaliatory blows would be fairly significant (especially combined with the -1 to hit Nurgle models, and the Poisoned attacks and 5+ Regen which I give them with Festus.) So, I would be keen to try the Halberd route if it were practical.

(ii) How do you get multiple chariots to cross the field intact and hit that deathstar at the same time? I am just finding Chariots SO SLOW in the current format, and I even gave my WoC unit the Banner of Swiftness, to get them across the field quicker. (10 on a march, rather than 6'). If I fail a charge it's even worse--that chariot is just sitting there, useless.

I was planning to use the Nurgle Gorebeast chariot as a flank defense tool--following along, and daring some small flanking unit to come into range before smashing it.

(iii) Basically, my opponent "Bunkered" with HE, which I think is pretty effective. I've seen it done with Sword Masters, too, and it was equally lame to play against. So...maybe the "ignore the Deathstar" strategy is best in this case, almost like a "Refused Flank" strategy?

It was especially lame because I intended to use my Daemon Prince's Lore of Death to snipe the Archmage out of the unit, but the World Dragon banner protected her (and yes, she also had the Banner of Avelorn in there too, giving the +8 bonus on spells cast on her own unit...)

Anyway, thanks to you all--I learned a lot, and am keen to try again.

the problem everyones trying to figure out is how to survive against white lions personally ive found that a better offense is the best defence in this case, the answer (to me anyways being primarily high elf and WoC player myself) is two parts

24 Warriors of Khorne AHW Banner of rage
lore of nurgle works best for support (seeing as how we take their lore of life into account its only fair we get to use magic too)

6 wide by 4 deep give them shields so they can weather the storm on the way in. lore of nurgle the main spell you want is the miasma o pestilience (-1 to I and WS, or D3) worst case either that one or the bonus toughness to your own unit or regen, (witha lvl 4 caster using a familiar it would be exceptionally difficult to not get at least 2 of those spells lol)

and when you charge in focus at least two front guys and two supports on allarielle (shes a wizard meaning shes squishy, yea ya ward saves blah blah either way thats 10 attks hit 3 wound 3 shes only got 3 wounds) the rest of the what 21 attacks go into the lions, if you do lose combat it shouldnt be by much meaning you should stay and with banner of rage means a world of hurt next turn.

the lions will have 6 up save you wont have any granted, but if one of those spells go off youve A) vastly tipped it in your direction if you lower the init and ws (letting you hit harder and BEFORE) or youve significantly increased your own survivabilty, and should allarielle be alive theres only two spells you care about felsh to stone or regrowth.

if somebody wants to run numbers on it idk it sounds like the best bet to me and you might even be able to roll right over em in a turn if a couple extra lucky dice go through

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
the problem everyones trying to figure out is how to survive against white lions personally ive found that a better offense is the best defence in this case, the answer (to me anyways being primarily high elf and WoC player myself) is two parts

24 Warriors of Khorne AHW Banner of rage ...

I stopped reading there.

Rule number 1 for WoC: never ever throw warriors against anything that can actually fight back.

When your guys cost 19-20ppm, you don't want to let them fight stubborn things that hit back just as hard but cost 6-7ppm less.

The best solution to any elven horde is a proper amount of nurgle chariots. Many dead elves, 0 points lost.

Also, you never/rarely give warriors ahw, as you pay a premium for an extra attack that only a few get to use

The tournament may have restrictions on a) named characters, b) unit size, c) magic items / combos etc. it may be wise to check this out.

adicto20 wrote:

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
the problem everyones trying to figure out is how to survive against white lions personally ive found that a better offense is the best defence in this case, the answer (to me anyways being primarily high elf and WoC player myself) is two parts

24 Warriors of Khorne AHW Banner of rage ...

I stopped reading there.

Rule number 1 for WoC: never ever throw warriors against anything that can actually fight back.

When your guys cost 19-20ppm, you don't want to let them fight stubborn things that hit back just as hard but cost 6-7ppm less.

The best solution to any elven horde is a proper amount of nurgle chariots. Many dead elves, 0 points lost.

Hey, thanks for the advice--I am hearing this from several sources. The impact hits, plus the resilient and durable nature of the Nurgle Chariots certainly makes sense to me. However, I am still wondering how you get them across the field in time to do anything before the HE magic kills off most of my army. I was really trying to get across the field as fast as possible (Banner of Swiftness in the Warrior unit as a unit banner), as I feel that the longer I take, the more their shooting and magic will whittle me down, and obviously I have no shooting of my own to counter with. The Chariots are so slow now, not being able to March, that I was using my Nurgle chariot more as a "flank guard"--anything that gets into its front arc is going to get smashed into. So, I would love some direct feedback to this: are the Nurgle chariots capable of crossing the field (6 inches at a time...) and actually affecting the outcome of the battle, or are they just too slow?

If my opponent has a Deathstar of White Lions, bunkering the caster and BSB, it's liable to take up a fair amount of space. So I could hit it with more than one unit at the same time, such as Warriors and the Chariot. (Alternately, I am also hearing advice to just ignore it, and kill everything else).

I do hear you about the AHW, but I figure that I am really trying to do more damage than I take--as pointed out, those White Lions are going to be protected by the Banner of the World Dragon, so only mundane weapons are going to affect them, and their Str 6 attacks are going to ignore my armour saves. So, being Nurgle-y and hopefully increasing my advantage in combat with some Lore of Nurgle shenanigans, I figure that the front rank needs to be able to dole out some punishment if I am going to hope to win combat resolution. I do take your point about ppm disparity, but I can't control that. I'm not going to send Marauders at them... And because of that cursed banner, my Skullcrushers can't do much damage to them (unless I dropped the Ensorcelled weapons, which I could do...but the mounts are going to have their magical attacks largely ignored). So, I figured the AHW was a (not THAT expensive!) way of trying to maximize the damage the front rank could deal out. I will also have the BSB in my unit, and Festus, to give them some Regen, so my hope is to wear them down...in a good, fluffy Nurgle-y way.

Hold the WL horde using a nurgle prince with The Other Trickster's Shard and flank them with 2 or 3 chariots or even warriors. Since WL will only be able to perform 3 o 4 attacks to flankers, your models shouldn't worry about taking too much damage. You could even sacrifice a single gorebeast chariot, frontally charging with it to direct all its 7 S5 attacks at the lvl4 mage.

That works for me.

Nurgle Prince with all the bells & whistles, minus the wizard levels + chariots + 2x Lv2 Tzeentch wizards for Treason shenanigans.
Ld8 with no IP/BSB bonuses is pretty rough when your opponent is housing so many points into their denial vault.

Or else try a Cacobomb with a Slaany Prince. You'll nuke everything else in range and screw with his movement, maybe even sneak a wound onto his Lionstar if you're lucky (at which point you've effectively won).
There's a reason it's seen as the filthiest spell in the entire game!

The Alarielle star is like 1200-1500 points. Think of how much hurt you can jam into that many points. How many gorebeast chariots is that? How many core chariots is that? How many chimeras?

The trick with a death star is that you feed it chaff until you're ready to throw EVERYTHING against it. You don't find some 500 point silver bullet. You delay, delay, delay while you pick apart everything else, then hit it with your entire army turn 5 and hope to break it by bottom of 6.

That or dwellers.

Thanks, my Spanish and Canadian comrades! Mixing up the Lores definitely makes sense, and I totally hear you about the "points equivalent" units that I could afford to throw at it. It's a 6-turn game, after all, and you're right that I do have time go trudge those Chariots across the field until I am ready to launch a mass attack.

The Other Trickster's charge with my Nurgle Prince, huh? Interesting. Minus the Wizard levels would definitely allow me to bring some other Sorcerers and access the other Lores.

Thanks for the ideas!