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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 13:37:00
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Not strictly wargaming related as such but thought this might be of interest to some here..
http://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html
Old Tom Bombadil. Possibly the least liked character in The Lord of the Rings. A childish figure so disliked by fans of the book that few object to his absence from all adaptations of the story. And yet, there is another way of looking at Bombadil, based only on what appears in the book itself, that paints a very different picture of this figure of fun.
What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He is fat and jolly and smiles all the time. He is friendly and gregarious and always ready to help travellers in distress.
Except that none of that can possibly be true.
Consider: By his own account (and by Elrond’s surprisingly sketchy knowledge) Bombadil has lived in the Old Forest since before the hobbits came to the Shire. Since before Elrond was born. Since the earliest days of the First Age.
And yet no hobbit has ever heard of him.
The guise in which Bombadil appears to Frodo and his companions is much like a hobbit writ large. He loves food and songs and nonsense rhymes and drink and company. Any hobbit who saw such a person would tell tales of him. Any hobbit who was rescued by Tom would sing songs about him and tell everyone else. Yet Merry – who knows all the history of Buckland and has ventured into the Old Forest many times – has never heard of Tom Bombadil. Frodo and Sam – avid readers of old Bilbo’s lore – have no idea that any such being exists, until he appears to them. All the hobbits of the Shire think of the Old Forest as a place of horror – not as the abode of a jolly fat man who is surprisingly generous with his food.
If Bombadil has indeed lived in the Old Forest all this time – in a house less than twenty miles from Buckland – then it stands to reason that he has never appeared to a single hobbit traveller before, and has certainly never rescued one from death. In the 1400 years since the Shire was settled.
What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He is not what he seems.
Elrond, the greatest lore-master of the Third Age, has never heard of Tom Bombadil. Elrond is only vaguely aware that there was once someone called Iarwain Ben-Adar (“Oldest and Fatherless”) who might be the same as Bombadil. And yet, the main road between Rivendell and the Grey Havens passes not 20 miles from Bombadil’s house, which stands beside the most ancient forest in Middle Earth. Has no elf ever wandered in the Old Forest or encountered Bombadil in all these thousands of years? Apparently not.
Gandalf seems to know more, but he keeps his knowledge to himself. At the Council of Elrond, when people suggest sending the Ring to Bombadil, Gandalf comes up with a surprisingly varied list of reasons why that should not be done. It is not clear that any of the reasons that he gives are the true one.
Now, in his conversation with Frodo, Bombadil implies (but avoids directly stating) that he had heard of their coming from Farmer Maggot and from Gildor’s elves (both of whom Frodo had recently described). But that also makes no sense. Maggot lives west of the Brandywine, remained there when Frodo left, and never even knew that Frodo would be leaving the Shire. And if Elrond knows nothing of Bombadil, how can he be a friend of Gildor’s?
What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He lies.
A question: what is the most dangerous place in Middle Earth? First place goes to the Mines of Moria, home of the Balrog, but what is the second most dangerous place? Tom Bombadil’s country.
By comparison, Mordor is a safe and well-run land, where two lightly-armed hobbits can wander for days without meeting anything more dangerous than themselves. Yet the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs, all part of Tom’s country, are filled with perils that would tax anyone in the Fellowship except perhaps Gandalf.
Now, it is canonical in Tolkein that powerful magical beings imprint their nature on their homes. Lorien under Galadriel is a place of peace and light. Moria, after the Balrog awoke, was a place of terror to which lesser evil creatures were drawn. Likewise, when Sauron lived in Mirkwood, it became blighted with evil and a home to monsters.
And then, there’s Tom Bombadil’s Country.
The hobbits can sense the hatred within all the trees in the Old Forest. Every tree in that place is a malevolent huorn, hating humankind. Every single tree. And the barrows of the ancient kings that lie nearby are defiled and inhabited by Barrow-Wights. Bombadil has the power to control or banish all these creatures, but he does not do so. Instead, he provides a refuge for them against men and other powers. Evil things – and only evil things – flourish in his domain. “Tom Bombadil is the master” Goldberry says. And his subjects are black huorns and barrow wights.
What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He is not the benevolent figure that he pretends to be.
Tom appears to the Ringbearer in a friendly, happy guise, to question and test him and to give him and his companions swords that can kill the servants of another evil power. But his motives are his own.
Consider: it is said more than once that the willows are the most powerful and evil trees in the Forest. Yet, the rhyme that Bombadil teaches the hobbits to use in conjuring up Bombadil himself includes the line, “By the reed and willow.” The willows are a part of Bombadil’s power and a means of calling on him. They draw their strength from the cursed river Withywindle, the centre of all the evil in the Forest.
And the springs of the Withywindle are right next to Tom Bombadil’s house.
And then there is Goldberry, “the river-daughter”. She is presented as Bombadil’s wife, an improbably beautiful and regal being who charms and beguiles the hobbits. It is implied that she is a water spirit, and she sits combing her long, blonde hair after the manner of a mermaid. (And it is worth remembering that mermaids were originally seen as monsters, beautiful above the water, slimy and hideous below, luring sailors to drown and be eaten.) But I suggest the name means that in her true state, Goldberry is nourished by the River – that is, by the proverbially evil Withywindle.
In folklore and legend (as Tolkien would know well) there are many tales of creatures that can take on human form but whose human shape always contains a clue to their true nature. So what might Goldberry be? She is tall and slender - specifically she is “slender as a willow wand”. She wears a green dress, sits amidst bowls of river water and is surrounded by the curtain of her golden hair. I suggest that she is a Willow tree conjured into human form, a malevolent huorn like the Old Man Willow from whom the hobbits have just escaped. If she is not indeed the same tree.
So, if this is true, then why does Bombadil save and help the ringbearer and his companions? Because they can bring about the downfall of Sauron, the current Dark Lord of Middle Earth. When Sauron falls, the other rings will fail and the wizards and elves will leave Middle Earth and the only great power that is left will be Bombadil.
There is a boundary around Bombadil’s country that he cannot or will not pass, something that confines him to a narrow space. And in return, no wizard or elf comes into his country to see who rules it, or to disturb the evil creatures that gather under his protection.
When the hobbits return to the Shire after their journey to Mordor, Gandalf leaves them close to Bree and goes towards Bombadil’s country to have words with him. We do not know what they say. But Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth to contend against Sauron and now he must depart. He has been given no mission to confront Bombadil and he must soon leave Middle Earth to powerless men and hobbits, while Bombadil remains, waiting to fulfill his purpose.
Do I think that Tolkien planned things in this way? Not at all, but I find it an interesting speculation.
To speculate further and more wildly:
The spell that binds Bombadil to his narrow and cursed country was put in place centuries ago by the Valar to protect men and elves. It may last a few decades more, perhaps a few generations of hobbit lives. But when the last elf has gone from the havens and the last spells of rings and wizards unravel, then it will be gone. And Iarwain Ben-Adar, Oldest and Fatherless, who was ruler of the darkness in Middle Earth before Sauron was, before Morgoth set foot there, before the first rising of the sun, will come into his inheritance again. And one dark night the old trees will march westward into the Shire to feed their ancient hatred. And Bombadil will dance down amongst them, clad in his true shape at last, singing his incomprehensible rhymes as the trees mutter their curses and the black and terrible Barrow-Wights dance and gibber around him. And he will be smiling.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 13:47:45
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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[DCM]
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I never had a problem with old Tom before.
But I do now!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 14:02:28
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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It makes sense. As Tom Bombadil cannot strike blows, he needs minions to dispose of the Dark Lord for him. The hobbits were an unorthodox choice, but he probably didn't have many options. In a two-faction game he obviously has to be on one side or the other, and the events of the story place him nominally on the side of Good via enemy-of-my-enemy.
There should be a LotRSBG campaign for the later war against Tom Bombadil. That could be a book worth $40!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 15:14:37
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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[DCM]
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I'd buy that!
Of course, The Estate would never allow it...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 15:24:50
Subject: Re:Tom Bombadil
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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.. we could probably get 9-10 hours of cinema out of this....
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 17:40:45
Subject: Re:Tom Bombadil
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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reds8n wrote:.. we could probably get 9-10 hours of cinema out of this....
.......i would watch it. What does tolkien write in his history of middle earth about tom and the time after the war of the ring? I could see someone making that journeybook
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RoperPG wrote:Blimey, it's very salty in here...
Any more vegans want to put forth their opinions on bacon? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 23:49:26
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
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Very interesting read, thanks reds8n.
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DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/03 23:53:50
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Fixture of Dakka
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Good read but I always assumed Tom was God.
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/06 00:01:43
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Fixture of Dakka
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Why would God be stuck in one place though?
When I read the book, I never saw the purpose of Tom. It was way out of left field, it didn't even seem LotRish. My cousin explained it to me, that Tom was the ONLY person for The Ring to have no sway over. Still I see no purpose for it. Big deal, Tom didn't get swayed by The Ring and everyone else did. Still don't see a purpose for it.
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Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/06 00:45:07
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion
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That was fantastic! Utter nonsense of course haha, he's the only character called Tom so I have to defend him :p but a great read
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I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/06 00:49:33
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Fixture of Dakka
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Davor wrote:
Why would God be stuck in one place though?
When I read the book, I never saw the purpose of Tom. It was way out of left field, it didn't even seem LotRish. My cousin explained it to me, that Tom was the ONLY person for The Ring to have no sway over. Still I see no purpose for it. Big deal, Tom didn't get swayed by The Ring and everyone else did. Still don't see a purpose for it.
Of course god isn't stuck; that doesn't mean he doesn't have a sense of humor while wanting to help out in some limited way..like he can't take a direct hand but the nature of that location allowed him to nudge things a bit.
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Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/15 20:11:32
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Terrifying Doombull
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Tom was always one of those things that rubbed me the wrong way, now that we have more or less comfirmation that he is indeed evil! And therefor he needs a proper kicking. I vote for burning his creepy bum on a pyre!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/16 22:44:23
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I always assumed Bombadil was some sort of an avatar or personification of the natural world. The theories about him being more sinister make for a fun read (I've seen the OP years ago), but I don't think they hold water or are consistent with the rest of the setting. It is very interesting to see how the setting has developed organically via fan interpretation.
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The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/18 14:54:20
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Nasty Nob
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Oh, I knew there was something about that Tom Bombadil.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/18 22:05:43
Subject: Re:Tom Bombadil
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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I'd watch or read that.
It's a devilishly awesome concept, and gives a frightening twist on why Bombadil wasn't interested in the Ring.
I very much doubt this would ever happen as it contradicts Tolkien's idea of the character completely.
Perhaps Tom was behind the Ents "forgetting" where the Entwives went so his evil treekin could prosper.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 22:06:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/18 22:16:00
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Davor wrote:When I read the book, I never saw the purpose of Tom. It was way out of left field, it didn't even seem LotRish. My cousin explained it to me, that Tom was the ONLY person for The Ring to have no sway over. Still I see no purpose for it. Big deal, Tom didn't get swayed by The Ring and everyone else did. Still don't see a purpose for it.
Keep in mind that not everything needs to be wrapped up in a bow or have an obvious purpose, some things are just mysteries in the books and have never adequately been explained. Tom is one of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/18 22:33:15
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Terrifying Wraith
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There is also all some allusion to the old forest being the 'hiding place' of the Ent-wives. I always assumed that Goldie was analogous to Treebeard, but as mentioned, in 'human' form.
The Ent's mention that their wives left them long ago due to ideological differences to some place where they cant be found, and up until meeting hobbits (Which the Ents had NO knowledge of, and therefore would not have been familiar with the old forest) the Ent's are characterized by their indifference to the affairs of the humanoids. I also kind of assumed that the reason the shire's bounty was always so plentiful was due to the hidden nourishment/protection of the entwives.
To use SAT comparisons: Beorn: Bears as Tom/Goldie: Treefolk. Some sort of fantasy affinity/blending of the races.
This would mean that most of the 'evil / dangerous' reputation would have been misdirection to keep people from snooping about.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/18 22:38:13
Fantasy: 4000 - WoC, 1500 - VC, 1500 - Beastmen
40k: 2000 - White Scars
Hordes: 5/100 - Circle of Orboros
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/18 22:41:00
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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Never really thought about Tom in this respect before.
Now i cant stop mulling it over..........damn you..........
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/19 23:31:24
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne
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Interesting read. I kind of think that Tom was a bit of a deliberate mystery, more a relic of the children's-story origins of The Hobbit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/20 15:42:23
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Wraith
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I figured Tom was a member of that original 'Choir' that created the world. Old and all knowing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/05 19:10:16
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Agile Revenant Titan
In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout
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Great read, very interesting indeed, thanks for sharing!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/06 15:11:56
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons
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Tom Bombadil is one of my favourite characters in the Lord of the Rings books. He is a mystery and I always want to know more about him.
I think this story might be true but I am skeptical. I like the idea that he hides the Entwives and that is why the shire is so plentiful but I don't think that is possible. I say that because the Ents weren't in that area before and since Tom can't/won't leave his borders how would he have contacted the Ents and made them forget about the wives?
I don't think Tom is out to take over Middle Earth but I think he is just a spirit who only shows himself to ones who need help. The article writing thing also says that it is only 20 miles from buckland or wherever.....just because it is close doesn't mean it is easy to find. What if he has some sort of spell or magical shrouding around his homestead so that he can live in peace without being disturbed by people he doesn't care much for.
But anyways he is a cool character and I like how we don't know much about him but him and Gandalf definitely have some sort of connection together since Gandalf seems to know most about him and wants to talk to him after.
Tom may have just been waiting until the Evil leaves middle earth and so he can be the spirit who oversees the health of Middle Earth and its people. But I don't know haha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/06 16:11:06
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Terrifying Wraith
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I didnt mean that Tom was behind the ents forgetting their wives, but rather when the ent wives dissapeared they ended up settling in Tom's territory.
I made the correlation between the ents not knowing what a hobbit was, the fact that goldie is the closet thing to an ent-wife in the story, and the fact that tom is ent-like but with an inherent sense of compassion towards the 'good races'. \
as stated, there is no hard proof, and we are all reading between the lines... but i like that possible-reality the most
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Fantasy: 4000 - WoC, 1500 - VC, 1500 - Beastmen
40k: 2000 - White Scars
Hordes: 5/100 - Circle of Orboros
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/14 12:57:59
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Foul Dwimmerlaik
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I dislike this interpretation as it is based on the assumption that he is evil, so the author goes out of his way to find ways to validate this assumption, creating confirmation bias.
I find that when people are truly neutral, they are hated by all. And that is how I view Bombadil.
He has been there since Arda through the Ainulindale. He has lasted through the corruption of Melkor's meddling in Beleriand which Aule relentlessly followed behind to fix.
There is deep mysteries never explained, and their purpose to is simply add mystery and never be explained. It gives depth to the setting and gravity to the import.
A being of great power unlike anyone else mentioned in LotR there is no doubt. Not even Galadriel, the sister of Faenor who created the Silmarils from the light of the twin trees of Ezellohar is as powerful and her might as the daughter of Finwe is indeed great.
He glosses over his love of song... a thing of the Great Theme to create Ea by the Ainur under the direction of Eru Illuvatar.
Illivatar sternly reminds Melkor that despite his meddling, that even his worst corruptions are just a facet of the Flame and Eye of Eru and his creation. So too, does Bombadil hold back both good and evil from his haunts by his song.
Too be so truly neutral, one must indeed be powerful to last as long as he has. Helping or hindering only to maintain the balance when needed.
The explanation he gave simply goes against the dichotomy set in place in Melkor as the one enemy of creation. For the author to speculate and seemingly beleive Bombadil to have malevolent intent is simply missing the Huorns for the Entmoot.
One thing I will agree with though, that Bombadillio is a great enough character for such speculation to take place, and is likely why he is hated so much, because he simply cant be wrapped into one tidy, easily explained character motive.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/14 23:45:08
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Hellfury wrote:I dislike this interpretation as it is based on the assumption that he is evil, so the author goes out of his way to find ways to validate this assumption, creating confirmation bias. Not only that, but it also works hard to intentionally go against what Word of God he do have about the character and his purpose. Tolkein on Bombadil: I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless... It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war ... the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron. And, by way of the poems in The Adventures of Tom Bambadil, we know it's a very intentional removal from the desire of control as Tom is very traveled and learned about the world outside his little sphere of life. JRRT didn't talk about Tom much, but from what little he did say, he seemed very passionate about Tom's role in the story and world. As he stated, Tom isn't important to the story, but JRRT always felt that there was an importance to the character.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/14 23:52:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 02:29:21
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons
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Well Tolkien was quoted as saying that there are enigmas in mythology and Tom is exactly that, an enigma, on purpose.
He does say this though from what I could find. Its a letter by tolkien to someone who was asking about Bombadil (not 100% on the validity of this though).
"Tom Bombadil is not an important person — to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment.' I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in The Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function."
"I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless..."
"It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war ... the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron."
Anyways thats just from a quick google search. I remembered reading something about that and thought I'd drop it here.
I very much enjoy the fact that Tolkien did what he did with Tom and leaves it up to the reader to make some sort of personal judgement of his role etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/15 03:56:20
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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This is kind of like the theory that Harry Potter is really about a crazy kid in a mental institution... and that the Emperor built the Death Star to combat the Yuuzhan Vong invasion... and that Gandalf had intended to ride the Eagles to Mordor... fun to think about if you ignore all the logical inconsistencies and theoretical holes that are required for those theories to exist.
My understanding of Tom Bombadil has always been that he is essentially an 'avatar' of a more primordial entity than even the Gods, that is, he is an avatar of 'chaos' (used more in the sense of the greek mythos of primordial 'kaos' rather than in the 40k concept), the very stuff that all is made from, which is what affords him total control, as he is in essence creation itself. As Tolkien stated (or implied) he has renounced that control and taken on the role of an observer, he is - after all - essentially the ultimate source for everything that has occurred, becoming a neutral entity free to watch what unfolds without his influence, which is why he remains in the Old Forest/Barrow Downs. There is little flow into or out of the region, it affords him anonymity and frees him from influencing outside events while allowing him to continue to exercise control over things WITHIN his realm, which he uses as a means to maintain the status quo so that the arrangement can continue.
When the Hobbits encounter Tom, he is shown to be beyond the Rings power, he treats it as a toy. I don't doubt that he is AWARE of what the ring is, he simply doesn't care because he is the master of all and ultimately the source of his power. He even causes it to disappear entirely for a moment, which to me implies he could - if he so chose - simply will the ring out of existence. He chooses NOT to, because to do so would be to influence the events of his creation, something which he cannot do. Now its important to realize, that he in a way DID influence events by saving the Hobbits while they were within the Old Forest (and again in the Barrow Downs), however its important to remember - his primary goal is to maintain the status quo within his realm, if Old Man Willow/The Wights ended the Hobbits, the ring would still remain, which would tie the area into events within Middle Earth which could strip him of the anonymity afforded by the area and cause him to further influence events. Further, its important to note that prior to entering the Forest, the Hobbits goal was to reach Rivendell, they enter the Forest to avoid the Black Riders, Tom gets them out of the Forest (and then out of the Barrow-Downs when they get stuck there too) and back on track towards Rivendell and along with their journey as quickly as possible, and even directs them to the Prancing Pony, which is where Gandalf had intended them to go, and right back into hot pursuit of the Black Riders in the process - essentially invalidating any advantage gained by the Hobbits entering the Forest in the first place, as well as allowing outside events to continue as they should as if he was never involved.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/29 07:36:24
Subject: Re:Tom Bombadil
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Tom Bombadil is some sort of divine being, but whether he is an avatar of Eru remains a mystery. I dont think even Tolkien made up his mind what Bombadil actually was.
In any ce the article in the OP is clearly a joke, a mock conspiracy theory on Tom Bombadil making him out to be an concealed evil. The points can be easily explained away:
And yet no hobbit has ever heard of him.
That we know of, some hobbits would keep secrets to themselves, probably not a babbling took on a walkabout, but a quiet earthy type like Farmer Maggot may well do so.
then it stands to reason that he has never appeared to a single hobbit traveller before, and has certainly never rescued one from death. In the 1400 years since the Shire was settled.
Again that you know of, Bombadil can command his enemies, and vanquishes them utterly by command. This is a power that can be used remotely or with concealment.
Second hobbits tend not to venture deep into the woods, part of the woods are tamed and it was known that not all who venture into the Old Forest return. Bombadil is not obliged to save everyone, and those he does save may well not know howe they were saved, or even if they were in any danger to begin with.
The four hobbits may also have had a far rougher time in the Old Forest than usual because of what they were carrying. Bom bavbdil himself expressed surprise as to what Old Man Willow was doing, it was an unsual event, and implies the tree did mnot usually snack on hobbits.
Elrond, the greatest lore-master of the Third Age, has never heard of Tom Bombadil.
I dont buy that. Elrond seemed well informed when Gandalf mentioned Bombadil, his existence was no suprise, howver elves are not curious in that way, they are happy to let a secret rest for centuries if they have no cause to intervene.
Has no elf ever wandered in the Old Forest or encountered Bombadil in all these thousands of years? Apparently not.
Even an elf would have problem tracking a god, and the dangers of the old Forest are no threat to them., also the elf road appears to go through the forest if it travels a direct route from Rivendell to the Grey Havens through the Shire. There may even be a waystation in the Old Forest, we just dont know, if there was the hobbits could not even find it unless invited there, and likewise the elves there might be individually aware of the true nature of the forest.
Gandalf seems to know more, but he keeps his knowledge to himself.
Gandalf knows a whole lot more, but then he is a higher order of being. After his wiork was done he fulfilled a desire to visit Bombadil for a very long conversation.
But that also makes no sense. Maggot lives west of the Brandywine, remained there when Frodo left, and never even knew that Frodo would be leaving the Shire. And if Elrond knows nothing of Bombadil, how can he be a friend of Gildor’s?
What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He lies.
As a divine being Bombadil knows inner things. Farmer Maggot probably communes with Bombadil, whether he knows it or not, via some form of earth worship. Farmer Maggot was close to the soil. Likwise the elves commune with nature and if nature listens Bombadil is likely in the loop somewhere.
By comparison, Mordor is a safe and well-run land, where two lightly-armed hobbits can wander for days without meeting anything more dangerous than themselves. Yet the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs, all part of Tom’s country, are filled with perils that would tax anyone in the Fellowship except perhaps Gandalf.
It was a 'low level encounter area. Perils in the Old Forest, such as foliage only easily giving downwards and to the right wouldnt have stoipped most of the fellowship, and proably would have zero effect on Legolas. Also the hobbits when they were more hardened by their travels (levelled up) would have forced their own path. The dangers of the Old Forest were deliberately scaled, they were tough for their time, however after being hardened by their journey much rougher terrain was more navigable.
And then, there’s Tom Bombadil’s Country.
Its neutral aligned, nice considering this predated D&D druidism by decades. Bombadil isnt neutral aligned but he is an overseer of a natural order and that is very neutral. Bombadil also keeps a magical natural order, magic is draining from the world. In the Hobbit the narrative description of Smaug laments the decline of magic in the world. In earlier ages forests may well have been like that. We know they cvould be exceptionally danfgerous, even if overseen by a benign figure. The girdle of Melian being a good example, which was a forest ring filled with monsters and hidden perils and was all but impossible to navigate.
Goldberry says. And his subjects are black huorns and barrow wights.
Again people leave the barrows alone, and Bombadil doesnt intervene as there is no need. I think the journey there was much tougher than it need be because of the presence of the ring.
Nice article though, when seen in what I beleive is it's proper light, as a joke fan theory.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/10 07:36:12
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Foul Dwimmerlaik
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A bit of threadnomancy to the last post which I responded to nearly a year later to the day, but I'm not convinced that Bombadil is anything but entirely neutral in this. Or at least in the activities of Arda around him.
Weren't the LotR book written well before the Silmarillion was finalized? My memory is hazy on this, but if true, then Bombadil's role could have played a similar role as we now know to be Eru Illuvatar's.
A good example of this would be The Nauglafring in the Book of Lost Tales. It is essentially a condensed version of LotR, though more precisely an early version of Doriath's ruin.
We have Mim's Curse of Gold stolen from the Dragon Glorund (Glaurung) by the elf king Tinwelint (Tinuviel), an evil wandering gnome (the only gnome in his works that I am aware of) named Ufhedin, a friend to the Nauglath (dwarves) who joined forces with orcs to behead the elven king who so cruelly imprisoned the dwarves and gnome and payed them nothing for forging the most wondrous necklace beheld, save the Silmarils.
This single story is a clear precursor of many themes to come later on in LotR and the Silmarillion itself. Like the Nauglafring, perhaps the entire world wasnt organized prior to publication which causes some semblance of confusion about Bombadillo's role in that, when we assume the body of work is a homogenous whole. Soething we take for granted nowadays which people like Tolkien pioneered, but left just enough gaps either by mistake or by design.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/10 16:29:11
Subject: Tom Bombadil
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This is revisionist BS.
Elrond described exactly what Tom Bombadil was/is.
He was not an Ainur, which is what he would have to be if he was "one of the choir."
The Ainur (Valar and Maiar) are the only members of the choir, and only the Valar and Maiar in Arda are members of the Choir that exist in Arda, and possibly in all of Ëa.
I would need to go dig up Tom Shippey's Road to Middle-earth, Tolkien's Tales from the Perilous Realms, and the complete Adventures of Tom Bombadil to get a complete account of what entirely Tom Bombadil is, but Elrond's "Iarwen Ben-Adar" is an exact description of what Bombadil is.
And Tolkien, in talking about his mistake in putting Bombadil in The Lord of the Rings is an incomplete account of Tolkien's feelings on the matter, as Bombadil is a part of Middle-earth, as he is a part of all creation (and this DOESN'T mean that he is Éru-Ilúvatar either).
Tom Bombadil is a spirit that arises anywhere that life arises, and it takes the form of the most dominant form of life in the world, in this case, humanity. When it takes that form (at what point in history) seems to be irrelevant, as it exists outside of our normal flow of time. The Australian Aboriginies call it "God Time," and the European Legendarium has a variety of accounts of the space in which beings like Tom occupy as well, which correspond to "The Times of Legend," or, in the Judeo-Christian accounts, the realm where God and the Angels exist.
We find people entering into this's realm in the various Chivalric Romances, and in the Fairy Stories to which Tolkien was drawn, where people disappear into the realm of Faery/Fae.
This is important, because it means that to even though Tom Bombadil might not have always appeared as a man, after humanity (or Elves for that matter) appeared, this is how Tom would always be remembered as having appeared, even to those beings who saw him prior to Tom having taken that form (he would not consciously take that form, either - Nature itself would give him that form).
In any event... Read Tom Shippey's account of Bombadil in The Road to Middle-earth and Tolkien's own words about him in Tales of the Perilous Realms, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, and The History of Middle-earth if you want to get to the bottom of the answer to "Who is Tom Bombadil."
And... In the meantime... Ignore the guy from Livejournal who is making things up, without having an adequate account of the History of Tom Bombadil, where you will discover that he often visited the Hobbits, and especially Tom Cotton, that he would have little to do with the Entwives (learn the stories of Maker and Grower if you wish to understand the split of the Ents and the Entwives).
MB
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellfury wrote:A bit of threadnomancy to the last post which I responded to nearly a year later to the day, but I'm not convinced that Bombadil is anything but entirely neutral in this. Or at least in the activities of Arda around him.
Weren't the LotR book written well before the Silmarillion was finalized? My memory is hazy on this, but if true, then Bombadil's role could have played a similar role as we now know to be Eru Illuvatar's.
A good example of this would be The Nauglafring in the Book of Lost Tales. It is essentially a condensed version of LotR, though more precisely an early version of Doriath's ruin.
We have Mim's Curse of Gold stolen from the Dragon Glorund (Glaurung) by the elf king Tinwelint (Tinuviel), an evil wandering gnome (the only gnome in his works that I am aware of) named Ufhedin, a friend to the Nauglath (dwarves) who joined forces with orcs to behead the elven king who so cruelly imprisoned the dwarves and gnome and payed them nothing for forging the most wondrous necklace beheld, save the Silmarils.
This single story is a clear precursor of many themes to come later on in LotR and the Silmarillion itself. Like the Nauglafring, perhaps the entire world wasnt organized prior to publication which causes some semblance of confusion about Bombadillo's role in that, when we assume the body of work is a homogenous whole. Soething we take for granted nowadays which people like Tolkien pioneered, but left just enough gaps either by mistake or by design.
No.
The stories in The Silmarillion predate LotR. There was minor work done on some of them, and Tolkien desired to completely revise the Ainulindalë, and Valaquenta, but the Quenta Silmarillion remained fairly unchanged.
Tom Bombadil is not Éru-Ilúvatar, either.
See my above posting for a more complete account of Tom Bombadil (if people wish, I can dig out the sources and rebut the OP's quote, line-by-line, and then give a more complete account of just what Bombadil is).
MB
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/10 16:36:26
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