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Ok I just wanted to check that my latest trick is legal. The scenario is that there is a unit near the board edge and my three trucks are about 5in from them. Instead of trying to out gun them I just move one truck up on each side of them and then tank shock them up the middle with the third truck forcing them off the board as there is nowhere else for them to move out of the way. Legal?

Makinit wrote:
Ok I just wanted to check that my latest trick is legal. The scenario is that there is a unit near the board edge and my three trucks are about 5in from them. Instead of trying to out gun them I just move one truck up on each side of them and then tank shock them up the middle with the third truck forcing them off the board as there is nowhere else for them to move out of the way. Legal?

No, because they can always move to where the truck came from.

So they wont be off the board as there will be space for them behind the moving truck.

Isnt there something about enemy models not being able to move through your models unless it was a jump pack unit?

 Desubot wrote:
Isnt there something about enemy models not being able to move through your models unless it was a jump pack unit?

It does not affect the Tank shock rules as the tank is moving to occupy their space, so they are not moving through the tank.

If that were true no models would ever be able to move out from under a tank as they would not be able to move through the tank itself (Not to mention the tank would not be able to occupy the models space to begin with).

From reading and if im understanding the exact senerio.

the enemy unit is boxed in with no space to escape once boxed in.

the tank shocker moves forward till hit BTB with the enemy. at which point they take a test, if failed they probably run of, but if passed through them. so they are actually occupying the same spot.

at which point they must be moved the shortest distance 1" away while staying on the board and maintaining coherency........

so are you ever allowed to move more than your normal movement speed? (6,12)

Because really the only way it would ever work is if the unit is if its extremely close to the board edge, and the vehicle is too long for them to walk all the way through.

Or just content yourself with only splattering one or two. If you box the unit in properly, you should be able to park on a couple of models such that when they move they won't be able to maintain coherency with their unit. Remember only the ones you park on are allowed to move. If they can't both move out of the way and maintain unit coherency, they get splattered.

Thats also true.

minimum distance +1 inch wouldn't leave that much room for the rest of em. and they still need to stay 1" away from the other two boxer cars.

Its not clear. I'd say that no model may exceed its standard movement to avoid the tank because they suggest a situation where its not possible. If the models essentialy had a limitless move and can move through the tank they will always end up in the path of the tank as it would at the very least men the tank and the units transpose positions.

 Desubot wrote:
From reading and if im understanding the exact senerio.

the enemy unit is boxed in with no space to escape once boxed in.

And how did the tank accomplish that? The tank shocking tank is no longer where it started, and it had a path to move through to get there. That is the space to escape to.

the tank shocker moves forward till hit BTB with the enemy. at which point they take a test, if failed they probably run of, but if passed through them. so they are actually occupying the same spot.

at which point they must be moved the shortest distance 1" away while staying on the board and maintaining coherency........

so are you ever allowed to move more than your normal movement speed? (6,12)

Because really the only way it would ever work is if the unit is if its extremely close to the board edge, and the vehicle is too long for them to walk all the way through.

The models' movement speed has nothing to do with it, because the tank shock rule specifies that they are moved the minimum distance necessary.

For another example of the fact that the model's movement speed has nothing to do with mandatory movement: Models can fall back in the close combat phase distance greater than their normal movement speed.

It's one of those differences that aren't really apparent until you look into it. The rules for movement don't give you a hard cap. They never say "A model can not move over x inches", they say "A model can move up to x inches". So we don't have a problem of the tank shock rules saying Must vs. the movement rules saying Can't because the movement rules never say Can't. They just never give you the opportunity to do so.

Then i suppose that means the most you can ever kill is the amount of models you can fit in the width of the tank that shocked if you perfectly box em in. (say land raiders on both sides of a unit that is close to board edge with just enough space for a 3rd land raider positioned properly between as it rams into the space . if properly done all the enemy models will be underneath it, at which point you start moving models out to the only legal spot which is behind it onces that minimum 1" distance has been met the rest die)

 solkan wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
From reading and if im understanding the exact senerio.

the enemy unit is boxed in with no space to escape once boxed in.

And how did the tank accomplish that? The tank shocking tank is no longer where it started, and it had a path to move through to get there. That is the space to escape to.

the tank shocker moves forward till hit BTB with the enemy. at which point they take a test, if failed they probably run of, but if passed through them. so they are actually occupying the same spot.

at which point they must be moved the shortest distance 1" away while staying on the board and maintaining coherency........

so are you ever allowed to move more than your normal movement speed? (6,12)

Because really the only way it would ever work is if the unit is if its extremely close to the board edge, and the vehicle is too long for them to walk all the way through.

The models' movement speed has nothing to do with it, because the tank shock rule specifies that they are moved the minimum distance necessary.

For another example of the fact that the model's movement speed has nothing to do with mandatory movement: Models can fall back in the close combat phase distance greater than their normal movement speed.

Do you not roll for fallback distance? Quite diffrent from tank shock.

You could very easily kill all but one model using this trick.

Fragile wrote:
You could very easily kill all but one model using this trick.

I wouldn't call it very easy, but it can be done.

 Desubot wrote:
Then i suppose that means the most you can ever kill is the amount of models you can fit in the width of the tank that shocked if you perfectly box em in. (say land raiders on both sides of a unit that is close to board edge with just enough space for a 3rd land raider positioned properly between as it rams into the space . if properly done all the enemy models will be underneath it, at which point you start moving models out to the only legal spot which is behind it onces that minimum 1" distance has been met the rest die)

Not quite. The rules say "models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board." You have permission to leave more than 1" between any given model and the vehicle, provided you are moving the shortest distance and maintaining coherency and staying on the board. Essentially, once the first models have met the 1" distance (thus reached their shortest distances), the remaining models in the unit would get to move through their buddies as normal and end up 2+ inches from the vehicle as long as they end up in coherency and travelling the shortest distance to get there. For this trick to work, you'd have to have at least one model that did not end up under the tank so that it is ineligible to move. Then all models under the tank wouldn't maintain coherency and be casualties. If the whole unit is under the tank, you'd get to move all the models and this trick wouldn't work.

Something I think everyone missed. Trucks are do not have the vehicle type tank, hence they wouldn't be able to tank shock in the first place. Granted the rest of the discussion would be a hypothetical using something similar (say rhinos), but the initial example wouldn't even work because Ork trucks are not tanks.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
Something I think everyone missed. Trucks are do not have the vehicle type tank, hence they wouldn't be able to tank shock in the first place. Granted the rest of the discussion would be a hypothetical using something similar (say rhinos), but the initial example wouldn't even work because Ork trucks are not tanks.

Trucks have an upgrade that allows them to tank shock, don't they?

Good point, I missed that one myself.

I've done something similar with Venoms and Reavers. Move the reavers to surround a unit. Tank shock with a Shock Prow venom. Unit can't go anywhere, so dies.

I do the same with Wave Serpents, surround a unit them tank shock from above.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You could very easily kill all but one model using this trick.

I wouldn't call it very easy, but it can be done.

All you have to do is turn one of the first two tanks diagonally enough to allow 1 model to fit between it and shocking tank, that becomes the shortest distance spot. Since the rest cannot make coherency they will die. Longer vehicles make it easier.

I've had this argument before. Good conversation about it here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492546.page

Yes, I believe your tactic is legal. There are 4 conditions that must be satisfied for a unit to get out of the way of a tank shock:

a) move the shortest distance to get out of the way of the tank
b) stay in unit coherency
c) stay at least 1 inch away from the vehicle
d) stay on the board

For any unit that cannot do this, this is what the BRB says: "Any models that cannot manage this are crushed and removed from play as casualties. Crunch!" It should be noted this language has changed since 5th edition, and the fact GW added it to the rules is significant.

I like to play Chaos and typically bring 4 units up the board with Rhinos. I use the Rhinos as a tank wall for a couple turns, then typically tank shock with the ones that are left. Here's a more useful tactic than hugging the edges of the table:

1) Find an infantry unit that has a second unit standing behind it and is near a piece of terrain.

2) Move one vehicle to the left of it.

3) Tank shock with the other to create a situation where the unit cannot move backwards, cannot move left and cannot move right. The unit would have to cross your tank.

Now, there is nothing to indicate that the normal rules for movement do not apply to forced movement around a tank shock. There are very clear rules around distance that apply to different models that must be adhered to. If your opponent tries moving more than 6 inches forward to get out of the way, ask him to show you where it says his unit can move in that manner.

Depending on where my Rhinos end up during the shock, with their dozer blades and all, it's typically very hard to move 6 inches to get past them. They are the MVPs of my army in about a third of the games I play. But yeah, basically, anytime someone has 2 units standing next to a wall, I use this tactic.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Now, there is nothing to indicate that the normal rules for movement do not apply to forced movement around a tank shock. There are very clear rules around distance that apply to different models that must be adhered to. If your opponent tries moving more than 6 inches forward to get out of the way, ask him to show you where it says his unit can move in that manner.

I'd point to the rule giving me permission to move the minimum distance to clear your model.
Insisting that this movement is limited to 6" is incorrect and has no basis in rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Now, there is nothing to indicate that the normal rules for movement do not apply to forced movement around a tank shock. There are very clear rules around distance that apply to different models that must be adhered to. If your opponent tries moving more than 6 inches forward to get out of the way, ask him to show you where it says his unit can move in that manner.

I'd point to the rule giving me permission to move the minimum distance to clear your model.
Insisting that this movement is limited to 6" is incorrect and has no basis in rules.

Fully concur. The tank shocking vehicle also cannot block movement as it is technically on top of the moving models and the rules give you permission to move out from under it so long as you finish at least 1" away, on the board and in coherency. Each model uses the shortest path to get there.

Respectfully, I understand the prevailing interpretation about the rules around movement for a unit that is being tank shocked. I disagree with this interpretation and believe RAW do not provide units with more movement than they are normally entitled to. You can call this a house rule, but there are situations that can rise when doing tank shocks that make you want to really examine the wording based on common sense.

The basis for this is simple. Movement is movement. I don't see why having a tank bear down on you means you can suddenly move an extra 12 inches a turn. If we were talking about moving a couple inches to get out of the way, I would not have a problem with the prevailing interpretation. But, since 6th edition came out, I have been in this situation at least a half a dozen times.

1) My Rhino tank shocks a unit that can't move except to go through the Rhino.

2) The Rhino's tank shock move ends in the middle of the unit (because otherwise it would hit whatever is behind the target).

3) To get out of the way, the unit would have needed to move about 5 inches to get out of the way of the Rhino and be one inch away and maintain coherency. They still can't really move because of where the Rhino is at.

4) I tank shock with a second Rhino. The unit has to move again, now it's moved about 10 inches (some of the models have gone a lot further than that.)

If I wanted to, I could do another tank shock with a third Rhino and take them further than they could have run. Add that to the natural movement of the unit, and you have squads that are moving almost as far as a bike going flat out. It doesn't make sense to me that infantry should be able to do that - especially slow and purposeful ones.

I have been asking opponents about movement for a while now, and asking them to explain how their troops could go that far. It's a mechanic GW did not consider when designing this game. The other way of looking at it is this, there are restrictions around how far a model can move. What is so special about a tank shock that it lets you break this other, more basic rule?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Respectfully, I understand the prevailing interpretation about the rules around movement for a unit that is being tank shocked. I disagree with this interpretation and believe RAW do not provide units with more movement than they are normally entitled to.

Because removing your guys from under the tank is not a 'move' as described in the 40K rules. It would not trigger a difficult terrain test for example.

What is so special about a tank shock that it lets you break this other, more basic rule?

Because it is not a move so you are not restricted to the 6 inch limit.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Respectfully, I understand the prevailing interpretation about the rules around movement for a unit that is being tank shocked. I disagree with this interpretation and believe RAW do not provide units with more movement than they are normally entitled to. You can call this a house rule, but there are situations that can rise when doing tank shocks that make you want to really examine the wording based on common sense.

The basis for this is simple. Movement is movement. I don't see why having a tank bear down on you means you can suddenly move an extra 12 inches a turn. If we were talking about moving a couple inches to get out of the way, I would not have a problem with the prevailing interpretation. But, since 6th edition came out, I have been in this situation at least a half a dozen times.

1) My Rhino tank shocks a unit that can't move except to go through the Rhino.

2) The Rhino's tank shock move ends in the middle of the unit (because otherwise it would hit whatever is behind the target).

3) To get out of the way, the unit would have needed to move about 5 inches to get out of the way of the Rhino and be one inch away and maintain coherency. They still can't really move because of where the Rhino is at.

4) I tank shock with a second Rhino. The unit has to move again, now it's moved about 10 inches (some of the models have gone a lot further than that.)

If I wanted to, I could do another tank shock with a third Rhino and take them further than they could have run. Add that to the natural movement of the unit, and you have squads that are moving almost as far as a bike going flat out. It doesn't make sense to me that infantry should be able to do that - especially slow and purposeful ones.

I have been asking opponents about movement for a while now, and asking them to explain how their troops could go that far. It's a mechanic GW did not consider when designing this game. The other way of looking at it is this, there are restrictions around how far a model can move. What is so special about a tank shock that it lets you break this other, more basic rule?

Find a rule that says no movement can be more than 6". You won't be able to. Instead, you'll find throughout the rulebook that every time you are given permission to move models you are also told how far. Normal movement says "Models move up to 6". Run says "Roll a d6... models in the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches." Regrouping says "can immediately move up to 3"."

Tank Shock says "...these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance..." Why is Tank Shock bound by a distance cap that it never mentions when all the other movements aren't?

Chrysis wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Respectfully, I understand the prevailing interpretation about the rules around movement for a unit that is being tank shocked. I disagree with this interpretation and believe RAW do not provide units with more movement than they are normally entitled to. You can call this a house rule, but there are situations that can rise when doing tank shocks that make you want to really examine the wording based on common sense.

The basis for this is simple. Movement is movement. I don't see why having a tank bear down on you means you can suddenly move an extra 12 inches a turn. If we were talking about moving a couple inches to get out of the way, I would not have a problem with the prevailing interpretation. But, since 6th edition came out, I have been in this situation at least a half a dozen times.

1) My Rhino tank shocks a unit that can't move except to go through the Rhino.

2) The Rhino's tank shock move ends in the middle of the unit (because otherwise it would hit whatever is behind the target).

3) To get out of the way, the unit would have needed to move about 5 inches to get out of the way of the Rhino and be one inch away and maintain coherency. They still can't really move because of where the Rhino is at.

4) I tank shock with a second Rhino. The unit has to move again, now it's moved about 10 inches (some of the models have gone a lot further than that.)

If I wanted to, I could do another tank shock with a third Rhino and take them further than they could have run. Add that to the natural movement of the unit, and you have squads that are moving almost as far as a bike going flat out. It doesn't make sense to me that infantry should be able to do that - especially slow and purposeful ones.

I have been asking opponents about movement for a while now, and asking them to explain how their troops could go that far. It's a mechanic GW did not consider when designing this game. The other way of looking at it is this, there are restrictions around how far a model can move. What is so special about a tank shock that it lets you break this other, more basic rule?

Find a rule that says no movement can be more than 6". You won't be able to. Instead, you'll find throughout the rulebook that every time you are given permission to move models you are also told how far. Normal movement says "Models move up to 6". Run says "Roll a d6... models in the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches." Regrouping says "can immediately move up to 3"."

Tank Shock says "...these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance..." Why is Tank Shock bound by a distance cap that it never mentions when all the other movements aren't?

To be fair, he labeled it as a house rule so why bother?
From a fluff standpoint i can see why a gaming group would use that house rule. I think it makes tank shocking too powerful but they can houserule how they want.

If you ask me tank shocks arent there to kill models. They are there to cause morale checks and force units to move out of the way. They do that pretty fine under the current rules.

Thats why I say its iffy. They say the models must be moved and grammatically that does not mean the models must 'move'. However the writers of the BRB usually tell you to place your models if the model is its not considered movement. The matter is clouded even more when the tank shock rule tell you the model is crunched if it can not manage this leaning towards towards implicit movement.

Question for you fellas. If its not 'movement' but 'placement' How can the model ever wind up being stuck under the tank and crushed? Given the concept that there is no limit to the distance you could find the shortest distance you have to move the model for it to achieve the checklist of being on the board more then 1" away from the tank and in coherency might be more then 2 or 3 feet. Seems like it would be impossible for the models not to be able to find such a spot in a realistic game. Why even have a rule about failing in the 1st place?

 DJGietzen wrote:
Thats why I say its iffy. They say the models must be moved and grammatically that does not mean the models must 'move'. However the writers of the BRB usually tell you to place your models if the model is its not considered movement. The matter is clouded even more when the tank shock rule tell you the model is crunched if it can not manage this leaning towards towards implicit movement.

Question for you fellas. If its not 'movement' but 'placement' How can the model ever wind up being stuck under the tank and crushed? Given the concept that there is no limit to the distance you could find the shortest distance you have to move the model for it to achieve the checklist of being on the board more then 1" away from the tank and in coherency might be more then 2 or 3 feet. Seems like it would be impossible for the models not to be able to find such a spot in a realistic game. Why even have a rule about failing in the 1st place?

Its hard to crush a model with a tank shock. Although not impossible. I cba to do a paint picture but i can think of a situation off the top of my head.

Would you say a unit in difficult terrain has to make a difficult terrain check when tank shocked?