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Hi Guys, Signing in with my fifth installment of a review of every slot of the Space Marine Codex. This time, I walk through the dusty passages of the fast attack slot!

For my coverage of the Unique characters, be sure to look up the first part of this series.
For my coverage of the Generic Characters, be sure to look up the second part of this series.
For my coverage of the Troops Section, be sure to look up the Third part of this series.
For my coverage of the Elites slot, be sure to look up the Fourth Part of this series.

Happy reading! I hope I give you something to laugh at, and I'm damn near certain I'll give you something new to think about this installment with at least one unit.

Some thoughts:

5 AM w/ 2xFlamers in a drop pod is a cheep way to boost your pod count for drop lists. These guys don’t have to be better in assault then other armies CC specialists, they need to be better then their weedy backfield campers. And sometimes being a disruption is just as good as killing something. If they end up in a slap-fight with a dev squad for 2 turns, those are two turns the devs aren’t blowing the shorts off the rest of my army.

You fail to mention grav guns in you bike description. If I was to toss a singe FA bike squad into an otherwise bike free list, it would either be as fast melta for erasing tanks, or full grav for dealing with MCs and TEQ.

I have some minor quibbles with other things, but that’s just my opinion differing. Always interesting to get other’s perspectives on things, thanks for doing these.

Your rating of the Talon is way too low. I think your costs are wrong - with a TML, it's 145 pts, not 165.

Seriously, its probably the best unit in your whole arsenal.

Land Speeders are NOT better than Stormtalons. Not even close.

Fast attack worse than elites? There are only two really poor units in fast attack - scout bikers and assault marines. All the others are fully usable in competitive armies.

In the landspeeder section you fail to mention the humble double heavy flamer build. It's risky (being best used in a deep-strike where a poor scatter will render them useless or even dead), but it also only costs 60 points and can absolutely devastate light infantry, and even put the hurt on space marines. My one is the best performing unit (for the points) in my White Scars!

Nevelon wrote:Some thoughts:

5 AM w/ 2xFlamers in a drop pod is a cheep way to boost your pod count for drop lists. These guys don’t have to be better in assault then other armies CC specialists, they need to be better then their weedy backfield campers. And sometimes being a disruption is just as good as killing something. If they end up in a slap-fight with a dev squad for 2 turns, those are two turns the devs aren’t blowing the shorts off the rest of my army.

You fail to mention grav guns in you bike description. If I was to toss a singe FA bike squad into an otherwise bike free list, it would either be as fast melta for erasing tanks, or full grav for dealing with MCs and TEQ.

I have some minor quibbles with other things, but that’s just my opinion differing. Always interesting to get other’s perspectives on things, thanks for doing these.

I can't imagine a good list that doesn't run a TFC. a TFC can take a pod and thus, makes better Pod maximisers. Also 5x AM can't run 2 flamers, only 1.

I can't abide 4 Grav gun hits, I mean, it's 3 wounds on a hive tyrant, but unless you're running biker armies, you aren't going to get there quickly enough to make it worthwhile. When you are running biker armies, you already have a command squad to do this for you.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:Your rating of the Talon is way too low. I think your costs are wrong - with a TML, it's 145 pts, not 165.

Seriously, its probably the best unit in your whole arsenal.

My rating of the talon is not "way too low". It's my opinion. Your opinion disagrees with mine, which does not make my opinion wrong. You're right about the costing - a remnant of fifth edition prices.

That said, I run a talon. I mostly run it to shore up my lack of anti-flyer. If you think I've missed something good about it, please list an example or two as to why it's the "best unit in your whole arsenal". If I agree with your assessment, I'll credit your opinion and change my scores as an addendum.

Martel732 wrote:Land Speeders are NOT better than Stormtalons. Not even close.

I'd disagree, but maybe that's because of what I've seen run and what I've come up against. I tend to find that the 'talon dies quickly to flyers, whereas land speeders can soak a bit of damage. Of course, you rule late game with a stormtalon, you can't do the same with speeders.

Hedgehog wrote:In the landspeeder section you fail to mention the humble double heavy flamer build. It's risky (being best used in a deep-strike where a poor scatter will render them useless or even dead), but it also only costs 60 points and can absolutely devastate light infantry, and even put the hurt on space marines. My one is the best performing unit (for the points) in my White Scars!

Double/triple heavy flamers are AP4, which makes them a failure in the face of anything that doesn't run 4+ saves ad nauseum. I did not list that build because I would not run it.

Guys, it's all very well and good to disagree with my opinion, you're more than welcome to. If you're going to disagree, give a reason for your disagreement. Don't just tell me that X is NOT better than Y. That may be your opinion, but it is not expressed in a useful way. This entire series is intended to give players a different perspective on units in the SM codex. If you can't accept that different perspectives exist to your own, don't read these pages. There's a reason I don't openly balm land speeders or scout bikes, as is the norm.

that said, I'll be dropping the mobility, damage output and survivability of the land speeders to some extent, because I had misunderstood some of the rules regarding land speeders and these had changed my judgement. I still believe land speeders are a better unit, but I don't think they're a full point better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Illumini wrote:
Fast attack worse than elites? There are only two really poor units in fast attack - scout bikers and assault marines. All the others are fully usable in competitive armies.

Fast attack specialises in cheap, throw-away units and flyers. This is all good and dandy except in the scouring when you're down points because of it.

First off, if you want to get good mileage out of the Talon, you should equip it with the Skyhammer launcher. 125 pts for 7 S6+ shots is nothing to sneeze at, even if the airframe is fragile. Compared to other Flyers, it is a very decent platform - it's no Nightscythe, Vendetta or Heldrake, but it is leagues ahead of the Nephilim, Dakkajet or Razor/Sunshark. And even compared to the best flyers… it's not so bad since its better at air to air than the Baledrake and its better at infantry-killing than the Vendetta with Heavy Bolters.

All in all, its a cheap, fairly killy, versatile platform that is a fair AA fighter that can do decently against ground threats.

Opinions are fine and all, but they have to be grounded in proper facts and understanding of the game.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Nevelon wrote:Some thoughts:

5 AM w/ 2xFlamers in a drop pod is a cheep way to boost your pod count for drop lists. These guys don’t have to be better in assault then other armies CC specialists, they need to be better then their weedy backfield campers. And sometimes being a disruption is just as good as killing something. If they end up in a slap-fight with a dev squad for 2 turns, those are two turns the devs aren’t blowing the shorts off the rest of my army.

You fail to mention grav guns in you bike description. If I was to toss a singe FA bike squad into an otherwise bike free list, it would either be as fast melta for erasing tanks, or full grav for dealing with MCs and TEQ.

I have some minor quibbles with other things, but that’s just my opinion differing. Always interesting to get other’s perspectives on things, thanks for doing these.

I can't imagine a good list that doesn't run a TFC. a TFC can take a pod and thus, makes better Pod maximisers. Also 5x AM can't run 2 flamers, only 1.

"Up to two Space Marines may replace their bolt pistols with one of the following [...]". You most certainly can have two flamers on five ASM. In fact, five ASM in a Drop Pod with two flamers and a combi-flamer clocks in at 105 points, which isn't too bad.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Nevelon wrote:Some thoughts:

5 AM w/ 2xFlamers in a drop pod is a cheep way to boost your pod count for drop lists. These guys don’t have to be better in assault then other armies CC specialists, they need to be better then their weedy backfield campers. And sometimes being a disruption is just as good as killing something. If they end up in a slap-fight with a dev squad for 2 turns, those are two turns the devs aren’t blowing the shorts off the rest of my army.

You fail to mention grav guns in you bike description. If I was to toss a singe FA bike squad into an otherwise bike free list, it would either be as fast melta for erasing tanks, or full grav for dealing with MCs and TEQ.

I have some minor quibbles with other things, but that’s just my opinion differing. Always interesting to get other’s perspectives on things, thanks for doing these.

I can't imagine a good list that doesn't run a TFC. a TFC can take a pod and thus, makes better Pod maximisers. Also 5x AM can't run 2 flamers, only 1.

I can't abide 4 Grav gun hits, I mean, it's 3 wounds on a hive tyrant, but unless you're running biker armies, you aren't going to get there quickly enough to make it worthwhile. When you are running biker armies, you already have a command squad to do this for you.

You might want to check you codex on the AM weapons. The 5th edition 1 per 5 was the exception, not the norm. 6th returns to the 2 per squad that we had in the 3rd and 4th ed codexes.

The whole army doesn’t need to have the speed to get the grav guns in range, just the bikes. And they have that speed. If you are running grav, you should probably invest in the combi for the sarge. 9 shots at 18”, 6 hits. 5 wounds on 2+ targets, 4 on 3+. That will kill almost anything without an invuln, and lay some wounds on things that do. YMMV, but I would not write them off.

Land speeders are hit at regular BS by 90% of the units in the game. And they are AV 10 HP 2. And they don't have skyfire. That's why they are not good in 6th. Clear enough?

"Fast attack specialises in cheap, throw-away units and flyers"

Marines can't afford throw away anything. That's why suicide sternguard were bad in 5th, and are still bad. That's why land speeder that die to a stiff breeze are bad. And that's why Riptides murder us, because it turns us into a throw away army without the numbers of a throw away army.

The 5-man squad in a Drop Pod with 2 flamers is an excellent choice. Especially for a Salamanders player. Not every Salamander player has a spare TFC lying around just in case there is a 100 point gap in a list (135 if you want a pod for it) but almost every Salamander player has two extra flamers and a couple of bolt pistol/ccw marines somewhere. And keep in mind that the flamer squad comes in at 95 points after the pod has been bought.

The Stormtalon is unimpressive. Not bad, but unimpressive. And there's no way they'll ever give it stats that are good enough that I'd swallow my pride and field that piece-of-crap model in my army.

One question about the Land Speeder, since I haven't looked in to the tactic extensively. Can vehicles make use of Promethium Pipes? If so, the Land Speeder would be the cheapest way to get mass Heavy Flamers on the table, with Torrent, no less. Speaking as a Drop Pod player, I do have an attraction to the Land Speeder, since they can Deep Strike with the benefit of the Locator Beacons in my pods. (So can Assault Squads with Jump Packs, but why bother?)

Another good review. Kind of a sparse one, but the FA slot is the weakest in the codex, easily.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:First off, if you want to get good mileage out of the Talon, you should equip it with the Skyhammer launcher. 125 pts for 7 S6+ shots is nothing to sneeze at, even if the airframe is fragile. Compared to other Flyers, it is a very decent platform - it's no Nightscythe, Vendetta or Heldrake, but it is leagues ahead of the Nephilim, Dakkajet or Razor/Sunshark. And even compared to the best flyers… it's not so bad since its better at air to air than the Baledrake and its better at infantry-killing than the Vendetta with Heavy Bolters.

All in all, its a cheap, fairly killy, versatile platform that is a fair AA fighter that can do decently against ground threats.

Opinions are fine and all, but they have to be grounded in proper facts and understanding of the game.

S7 doesn't deal with heldrakes, S7 doesn't deal with FMC. Move along.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
"Up to two Space Marines may replace their bolt pistols with one of the following [...]". You most certainly can have two flamers on five ASM. In fact, five ASM in a Drop Pod with two flamers and a combi-flamer clocks in at 105 points, which isn't too bad.

Ok. My mistake. I still don't think it's a good take at all.

Nevelon wrote:
You might want to check you codex on the AM weapons. The 5th edition 1 per 5 was the exception, not the norm. 6th returns to the 2 per squad that we had in the 3rd and 4th ed codexes.

The whole army doesn’t need to have the speed to get the grav guns in range, just the bikes. And they have that speed. If you are running grav, you should probably invest in the combi for the sarge. 9 shots at 18”, 6 hits. 5 wounds on 2+ targets, 4 on 3+. That will kill almost anything without an invuln, and lay some wounds on things that do. YMMV, but I would not write them off.

Name one 2+ unit that has 5 wounds without an invulnerable save (which, we both know would reduce the math you so casually ignored invulnerable saves on) that is *actually* taken and is *actually* scary enough to warrant this - only tau have such a unit, and that unit's flanked by sv 4+ units.

The only example I could think of was honour guard. Do people play honour guard footslogging?

I didn't *write them off*, I said I wouldn't take them unless I was going full bikes.

Martel732 wrote:Land speeders are hit at regular BS by 90% of the units in the game. And they are AV 10 HP 2. And they don't have skyfire. That's why they are not good in 6th. Clear enough?

"Fast attack specialises in cheap, throw-away units and flyers"

Marines can't afford throw away anything. That's why suicide sternguard were bad in 5th, and are still bad. That's why land speeder that die to a stiff breeze are bad. And that's why Riptides murder us, because it turns us into a throw away army without the numbers of a throw away army.

Suicide sternguard can kill a riptide in one go, so two can certainly handle two. Also, you're bringing a statement about the fast attack slot and comparing it to an elites section option. That is apples to oranges.

Martel, we agree on a few things in the space marine codex and I generally respect your opinion. I'm a little disgruntled that it's your way or no way, because I don't feel you're correct in this case. A space marine army can very easily do without any fast attacks, but a space marine army can also play sacrifice tactics.

You pull this particular argument every time someone disagrees with you, so I'm going to pull it on you. If you can't find a way to do sacrifice tactics, that's down to your skill as a player, not your single-minded view of this codex.

Jimsolo wrote:The 5-man squad in a Drop Pod with 2 flamers is an excellent choice. Especially for a Salamanders player. Not every Salamander player has a spare TFC lying around just in case there is a 100 point gap in a list (135 if you want a pod for it) but almost every Salamander player has two extra flamers and a couple of bolt pistol/ccw marines somewhere. And keep in mind that the flamer squad comes in at 95 points after the pod has been bought.

As I said, I don't think I Can see a decent list that doesn't run a thunderfire cannon. That's not to say you can't run an army without them, but I wouldn't suggest this as an alternative and I'm not changing my opinion on the matter. If we could use meltaguns, sure.

The Stormtalon is unimpressive. Not bad, but unimpressive. And there's no way they'll ever give it stats that are good enough that I'd swallow my pride and field that piece-of-crap model in my army.

you have to mod the model to make it look decent. The guns are in bad places and far too large.

One question about the Land Speeder, since I haven't looked in to the tactic extensively. Can vehicles make use of Promethium Pipes? If so, the Land Speeder would be the cheapest way to get mass Heavy Flamers on the table, with Torrent, no less. Speaking as a Drop Pod player, I do have an attraction to the Land Speeder, since they can Deep Strike with the benefit of the Locator Beacons in my pods. (So can Assault Squads with Jump Packs, but why bother?

I don't know, and I'm not sure I would use it given heavy flamer's AP4 nature. I would not base a list around it, personally.

Another good review. Kind of a sparse one, but the FA slot is the weakest in the codex, easily.

This one was going to be painful, and I knew I would get a backlash because Fast Attack starts to be the slot where the options aren't so cut and dry. As you can see with the contention about assault marines and about land speeders, storm talons, this is exactly what was going to happen.

I'm glad people aren't taking my opinion as kosher, though. I was writing this into GD to generate discussion, not to tell people how to play 40k. If they disagree, they disagree. IF they can convince me of why I'm wrong, then they've done well.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Nevelon wrote:
You might want to check you codex on the AM weapons. The 5th edition 1 per 5 was the exception, not the norm. 6th returns to the 2 per squad that we had in the 3rd and 4th ed codexes.

The whole army doesn’t need to have the speed to get the grav guns in range, just the bikes. And they have that speed. If you are running grav, you should probably invest in the combi for the sarge. 9 shots at 18”, 6 hits. 5 wounds on 2+ targets, 4 on 3+. That will kill almost anything without an invuln, and lay some wounds on things that do. YMMV, but I would not write them off.

Name one 2+ unit that has 5 wounds without an invulnerable save (which, we both know would reduce the math you so casually ignored invulnerable saves on) that is *actually* taken and is *actually* scary enough to warrant this - only tau have such a unit, and that unit's flanked by sv 4+ units.

The only example I could think of was honour guard. Do people play honour guard footslogging?

I didn't *write them off*, I said I wouldn't take them unless I was going full bikes.

I mentioned that invuln saves would effect the number, but you are correct, I didn’t break out the math. I tend to think of damage as wounds delivered, not much you can do about invuln saves but pile on the wounds and wait for the dice to fail your opponent.

Dev Cents seem to show up in a number of lists. I’ll tune into your next report of find out if you feel they are worth fielding a counter to. The TFC is another good target. It’s average T7 and 2+ save makes it hard to kill. It will be in cover, probably boosted, so you need to stick the extra wounds on it for results. Those are just two examples from our codex

When I’m making a TAC army one of the things I need to check off my list is “How do I deal with high-T targets, like MCs?” Grav bikers can fill that role. Splashing a singe unit of them into an otherwise bike free list still gets that job done. Grav bikers are the one load I would take if I wasn’t going for a full bike list, as they deliver something otherwise unavailable.

Opinions, obviously, vary.

"Suicide sternguard can kill a riptide in one go, so two can certainly handle two. Also, you're bringing a statement about the fast attack slot and comparing it to an elites section option. That is apples to oranges.

Martel, we agree on a few things in the space marine codex and I generally respect your opinion. I'm a little disgruntled that it's your way or no way, because I don't feel you're correct in this case. A space marine army can very easily do without any fast attacks, but a space marine army can also play sacrifice tactics.

You pull this particular argument every time someone disagrees with you, so I'm going to pull it on you. If you can't find a way to do sacrifice tactics, that's down to your skill as a player, not your single-minded view of this codex. "

C:SM now pays 32 pts /model for sternguard with combi-weapon. That's 320+35 for the pod = 355 pts for an if-come-maybe chance to kill a riptide. You are leaving out a) bubblewrapping and b) early warning override.

I will turn around your statement and tell you that if you are winning with suicide tactics with marines, your opponent is not gaming the situation correctly. Seeing sternguard in pods and single speeders with flamers in reserves requires responses. And I'm usually critical of poster's opponents, not the posters themselves. Just like these paste eaters you think are going to let you suicide Sternguard their Riptide off the table.

I think speeders are, unfortunately, garbage in 6th. Think of endless supply of S6/7 Xeno lists sling around. And you just made it *easier* for them to take your points away by fielding land speeders.

Martel732 wrote:

C:SM now pays 32 pts /model for sternguard with combi-weapon. That's 320+35 for the pod = 355 pts for an if-come-maybe chance to kill a riptide. You are leaving out a) bubblewrapping and b) early warning override.

I will turn around your statement and tell you that if you are winning with suicide tactics with marines, your opponent is not gaming the situation correctly. Seeing sternguard in pods and single speeders with flamers in reserves requires responses. And I'm usually critical of poster's opponents, not the posters themselves. Just like these paste eaters you think are going to let you suicide Sternguard their Riptide off the table.

I think speeders are, unfortunately, garbage in 6th. Think of endless supply of S6/7 Xeno lists sling around. And you just made it *easier* for them to take your points away by fielding land speeders.

I'm not leaving out Bubble wrapping. It's difficult in Anvil, but otherwise it is very hard not to get 19 grav gun shots within 18", and it's not very hard to place your models within 2" of an enemy model that would force your opponent to fire single shot, and only hit for two wounds. I also never advocated single speeders with flamers, did I?

And you can't do all the things you're calling on. You can't bubble wrap a riptide to such an extent that you aren't being outranged by typhoon missile launchers. Tau, aside from riptides and tanks, have an effective range of 18~30". Markerlights do nothing at 31". Riptides stop being effective at that range, even with ion accelerators. I've run tau and I've broken Tau using the tactics you're calling useless

Or are we now assuming that riptide's bubblewrapping me, and his pathfinders are in good range of me, and his kroot are outflanking to go for the objectives late game?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:


S7 doesn't deal with heldrakes, S7 doesn't deal with FMC. Move along.

Nice attitude you have.

First off, if you're fighting Heldrakes, your best tactic with a Talon is to manoeuvre behind it and shoot it in the ass with your TL assault cannon. If that means not firing your skyhammers/TLLC/Typhoons, so be it, because the math is still in your favour compared to shooting everything at AV12. Don't believe me? Run the math for yourself.

As far as dealing with FMCs, again, mathematically, the skyhammer is your best choice except in circumstances where the target has a 3+ save but no invul (i.e. Flyrant) or a 3+ save and a 5++ save (DP or Bloodthirster). As soon as one of those parameters changes (such as when a Nurgle DP Dives for a 3+ cover, or a BT gets the Grimoire put on him), the skyhammer is again your best choice.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:


S7 doesn't deal with heldrakes, S7 doesn't deal with FMC. Move along.

Nice attitude you have.

First off, if you're fighting Heldrakes, your best tactic with a Talon is to manoeuvre behind it and shoot it in the ass with your TL assault cannon. If that means not firing your skyhammers/TLLC/Typhoons, so be it, because the math is still in your favour compared to shooting everything at AV12. Don't believe me? Run the math for yourself.

As far as dealing with FMCs, again, mathematically, the skyhammer is your best choice except in circumstances where the target has a 3+ save but no invul (i.e. Flyrant) or a 3+ save and a 5++ save (DP or Bloodthirster). As soon as one of those parameters changes (such as when a Nurgle DP Dives for a 3+ cover, or a BT gets the Grimoire put on him), the skyhammer is again your best choice.

You do 1.7 wounds against a flyrant, including it getting grounded, which is like a lascannon with BS2, but here's the thing: SM flyers are all attack craft. The Storm Raven has weaponry clearly designed for attacking tanks (The missiles, Multi-melta, assault cannon or lascannon) or infantry (Assault cannons, Hurrican bolters, Heavy Bolters). The Stormtalon is even worse down this path - Assault cannons are clearly not meant to take on anything with a 3+ save, or anything better than AV10, the fact that they can is simply an attempt an attempt to give space marines a versatile weapon, and they have a rule to give them BS5 against things that aren't flyers or in the air.

I would honestly rather run drop pods to force grounding checks, then deal with an FMC while it's down. But, you're good to use the skyhammer if you see fit. I have never seen the point of S7AP4, because of its confused roles. (Read, not versatility, role confusion.) It's not excellent against AV11, except for putting rounds in the air, and it's weak against AV12/13, which is becoming more predominant. Surely, you can get behind a heldrake, and you might be likely to, since Chaos has no good way of defeating your air units, and no good way of making sire they don't have their rear armour on you. All of this doesn't mean I need to include it in my post, and I'm afraid you've failed to convince me otherwise by citing that it can't deal with the most common enemy FMC types. (I think we can agree that a flyrant is one of the most commonly taken nid unit, since every nid amy uses one, but not every daemon army has an FMC at its head.)

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

You do 1.7 wounds against a flyrant, including it getting grounded, which is like a lascannon with BS2, but here's the thing: SM flyers are all attack craft. The Storm Raven has weaponry clearly designed for attacking tanks (The missiles, Multi-melta, assault cannon or lascannon) or infantry (Assault cannons, Hurrican bolters, Heavy Bolters). The Stormtalon is even worse down this path - Assault cannons are clearly not meant to take on anything with a 3+ save, or anything better than AV10, the fact that they can is simply an attempt an attempt to give space marines a versatile weapon, and they have a rule to give them BS5 against things that aren't flyers or in the air.

But, you're good to use the skyhammer if you see fit. I have never seen the point of S7AP4, because of its confused roles. (Read, not versatility, role confusion.) It's not excellent against AV11, except for putting rounds in the air, and it's weak against AV12/13, which is becoming more predominant. Surely, you can get behind a heldrake, and you might be likely to, since Chaos has no good way of defeating your air units, and no good way of making sire they don't have their rear armour on you. All of this doesn't mean I need to include it in my post, and I'm afraid you've failed to convince me otherwise by citing that it can't deal with the most common enemy FMC types. (I think we can agree that a flyrant is one of the most commonly taken nid unit, since every nid amy uses one, but not every daemon army has an FMC at its head.)

The most common FMC types are Flyrants and DPs. In the first case, you are right, the Skyhammer isn't the best, but against the DPs, they are better than the Lascannon and Typhoon as soon as their cover/invul goes above 5+, which it will in. Then when Flyers are concerned, they either have AV 10/11 all around, or AV12 front/sides but AV 10 rear (exception the Storm Raven).

So when we take into consideration that we want our Talons to shoot down airplanes first and foremost, we know that the Skyhammer configs sucks at killing:

-Flyrants
-Storm Ravens

But on the flipside, its the best config to kill:

-Daemon Princes
-Greater Daemons
-Heldrakes
-Vendettas
-All AV11 or AV10 Flyers

That is a pretty clear-cut win as far as TAC goes.

Stormtalons are amazing because they are the only real AA in-codex for SM that isn't a heavy support. The other options are in the crowded HS slot, or require you to dig into allies or fortifications, each with their own issues.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

So when we take into consideration that we want our Talons to shoot down airplanes first and foremost, we know that the Skyhammer configs sucks at killing:

-Daemon Princes
-Greater Daemons
-Heldrakes
-Vendettas
-All AV11 or AV10 Flyers

That is a pretty clear-cut win as far as TAC goes.

DP's and GD's that have the Grimoire. If you're only running one FMC, you are running other things you want to give grimoire to. If you're running 5 FMC, you can only grimoire one of them. Why would you fire at the guy with a 3+ invuln when you can fire at the one with a 5+ invuln, when they're both nearly as dangerous as each other.

Or, for the sake of your argument, do we have multiple grimoires so everyone has grimoire up?

Also, if the grimoire is just grimoiring himself, he is only as threatening as any FMC is. If he's grimoiring another FMC, then he gets affected by AP3 and rending far better than an AP4 weapon.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

C:SM now pays 32 pts /model for sternguard with combi-weapon. That's 320+35 for the pod = 355 pts for an if-come-maybe chance to kill a riptide. You are leaving out a) bubblewrapping and b) early warning override.

I will turn around your statement and tell you that if you are winning with suicide tactics with marines, your opponent is not gaming the situation correctly. Seeing sternguard in pods and single speeders with flamers in reserves requires responses. And I'm usually critical of poster's opponents, not the posters themselves. Just like these paste eaters you think are going to let you suicide Sternguard their Riptide off the table.

I think speeders are, unfortunately, garbage in 6th. Think of endless supply of S6/7 Xeno lists sling around. And you just made it *easier* for them to take your points away by fielding land speeders.

I'm not leaving out Bubble wrapping. It's difficult in Anvil, but otherwise it is very hard not to get 19 grav gun shots within 18", and it's not very hard to place your models within 2" of an enemy model that would force your opponent to fire single shot, and only hit for two wounds. I also never advocated single speeders with flamers, did I?

And you can't do all the things you're calling on. You can't bubble wrap a riptide to such an extent that you aren't being outranged by typhoon missile launchers. Tau, aside from riptides and tanks, have an effective range of 18~30". Markerlights do nothing at 31". Riptides stop being effective at that range, even with ion accelerators. I've run tau and I've broken Tau using the tactics you're calling useless

Or are we now assuming that riptide's bubblewrapping me, and his pathfinders are in good range of me, and his kroot are outflanking to go for the objectives late game?

LOL Typhoon launchers. They are AP 3.

The grav gun's range is halved when units move. *Like coming out of a drop pod*. So now you get two shots per guy at a range of 9". Good luck with that. Even my crap ass BA can bubblewrap that. If BA cared about grav guns, which they don't.

Objectives don't matter when you're dead. That's Tau plan A. Kill everything. Because they can. And if you serve up a bunch of Sternguard on a suicide mission, good Tau players will do just that. You broke Tau with marines? Good for you. But I can break marines with BA. That's how unimpressive the marine codex is. It's amazing what happens when I'm not shot off the board in two turns. Because the marines just don't bring the heat like the Xenos.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:The 5-man squad in a Drop Pod with 2 flamers is an excellent choice. Especially for a Salamanders player. Not every Salamander player has a spare TFC lying around just in case there is a 100 point gap in a list (135 if you want a pod for it) but almost every Salamander player has two extra flamers and a couple of bolt pistol/ccw marines somewhere. And keep in mind that the flamer squad comes in at 95 points after the pod has been bought.

As I said, I don't think I Can see a decent list that doesn't run a thunderfire cannon. That's not to say you can't run an army without them, but I wouldn't suggest this as an alternative and I'm not changing my opinion on the matter. If we could use meltaguns, sure.

Maybe it's not such a big deal in your meta, but I've grown accustomed to frequent blobs-in-trees and blobs-behind-defense-lines. As well as super-stealth-mode units, like pathfinders, rangers, and the like. The ability to bang a cover save down to 2+ or 3+ has become fairly widespread in 6th edition. Flamers ignore cover, and TFCs don't.

Even then, I'm not saying don't take a TFC. Just that if you happen to have a 95 point hole in your list and a FA slot open, a flamer-squad in a pod can be a pretty sweet deal.

The Stormtalon is unimpressive. Not bad, but unimpressive. And there's no way they'll ever give it stats that are good enough that I'd swallow my pride and field that piece-of-crap model in my army.

you have to mod the model to make it look decent. The guns are in bad places and far too large.

Ugh. Tell me about it. I will be more intrigued by them if I ever see one of them converted to look pretty.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:The 5-man squad in a Drop Pod with 2 flamers is an excellent choice. Especially for a Salamanders player. Not every Salamander player has a spare TFC lying around just in case there is a 100 point gap in a list (135 if you want a pod for it) but almost every Salamander player has two extra flamers and a couple of bolt pistol/ccw marines somewhere. And keep in mind that the flamer squad comes in at 95 points after the pod has been bought.

As I said, I don't think I Can see a decent list that doesn't run a thunderfire cannon. That's not to say you can't run an army without them, but I wouldn't suggest this as an alternative and I'm not changing my opinion on the matter. If we could use meltaguns, sure.

Maybe it's not such a big deal in your meta, but I've grown accustomed to frequent blobs-in-trees and blobs-behind-defense-lines. As well as super-stealth-mode units, like pathfinders, rangers, and the like. The ability to bang a cover save down to 2+ or 3+ has become fairly widespread in 6th edition. Flamers ignore cover, and TFCs don't.

Even then, I'm not saying don't take a TFC. Just that if you happen to have a 95 point hole in your list and a FA slot open, a flamer-squad in a pod can be a pretty sweet deal.

The Stormtalon is unimpressive. Not bad, but unimpressive. And there's no way they'll ever give it stats that are good enough that I'd swallow my pride and field that piece-of-crap model in my army.

you have to mod the model to make it look decent. The guns are in bad places and far too large.

Ugh. Tell me about it. I will be more intrigued by them if I ever see one of them converted to look pretty.

Thunder fire cannons can ignore cover, where are you getting this from?

Your opponent gets his armour, but not his cover save. TFC is S6AP5, S5AP6 or S4AP- but causes enemies to move as if going through difficult and dangerous.

I've made the stormtalon look a way I like; I put the Asscans on the wings and made them smaller (I think they're the Assault cannons in sammael's land speeder?) I then took two typhoon missile launchers and put them where the front landing gear/asscannons are meant to be.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

DP's and GD's that have the Grimoire. If you're only running one FMC, you are running other things you want to give grimoire to. If you're running 5 FMC, you can only grimoire one of them. Why would you fire at the guy with a 3+ invuln when you can fire at the one with a 5+ invuln, when they're both nearly as dangerous as each other.

Or, for the sake of your argument, do we have multiple grimoires so everyone has grimoire up?

Also, if the grimoire is just grimoiring himself, he is only as threatening as any FMC is. If he's grimoiring another FMC, then he gets affected by AP3 and rending far better than an AP4 weapon.

The Grimoire is not the only way to get above a 5++ though. If you build your list properly, and play it properly, all of your DPs should have at least a 4++, generally at least a 3++ or 3+ cover in reality.

But lets put that aside for a second and assume that indeed, the DPs only have a 5++ for some reason: in the worst case scenario (its Tzeentch DPs that reroll 1s for saves), the Typhoon will only cause 0.31 extra wounds to it than the Skyhammer would. Is 0.31 extra wounds worth 20 pts (the cost difference between the Skyhammer and the Typhoon)?

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

DP's and GD's that have the Grimoire. If you're only running one FMC, you are running other things you want to give grimoire to. If you're running 5 FMC, you can only grimoire one of them. Why would you fire at the guy with a 3+ invuln when you can fire at the one with a 5+ invuln, when they're both nearly as dangerous as each other.

Or, for the sake of your argument, do we have multiple grimoires so everyone has grimoire up?

Also, if the grimoire is just grimoiring himself, he is only as threatening as any FMC is. If he's grimoiring another FMC, then he gets affected by AP3 and rending far better than an AP4 weapon.

The Grimoire is not the only way to get above a 5++ though. If you build your list properly, and play it properly, all of your DPs should have at least a 4++, generally at least a 3++ or 3+ cover in reality.

But lets put that aside for a second and assume that indeed, the DPs only have a 5++ for some reason: in the worst case scenario (its Tzeentch DPs that reroll 1s for saves), the Typhoon will only cause 0.31 extra wounds to it than the Skyhammer would. Is 0.31 extra wounds worth 20 pts (the cost difference between the Skyhammer and the Typhoon)?

No, there's one other way to get a good invulnerable save, and that's one psychic power available to tzeench. Which, by all means, you should get at least once or twice if you have 3 DPoT and 2 LoC. I don't think that justify's every single model on the field being both useful (i.e; not evading) and with a good invulnerable save.

Desch, it's cool that you want to run the skyhammer, but you haven't convinced me to include it. I don't feel it is a flexible enough weapon to be worthwhile, even for its extremely reduce price. For me to take a weapon that's AP4 to deal with FMC is absurd. I have other ways of dealing with AV12. IF I were to run a stormtalon, which I do, I would not run it as an anti-flyer piece. The Anti-flyer bit is just a nice bonus to me.

I don't really know what to say to convince you. I mean, I explained the math, which is the only thing we really can go by in a comparative analysis...

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
I don't really know what to say to convince you. I mean, I explained the math, which is the only thing we really can go by in a comparative analysis...

I think this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions in 40k. In WoW, raw math trumps pretty much everything else. In 40k, the game has much more to it than raw numbers. Not saying that mathematical analysis doesn't have a place, just that it isn't the be-all-end-all in this game.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:The 5-man squad in a Drop Pod with 2 flamers is an excellent choice. Especially for a Salamanders player. Not every Salamander player has a spare TFC lying around just in case there is a 100 point gap in a list (135 if you want a pod for it) but almost every Salamander player has two extra flamers and a couple of bolt pistol/ccw marines somewhere. And keep in mind that the flamer squad comes in at 95 points after the pod has been bought.

As I said, I don't think I Can see a decent list that doesn't run a thunderfire cannon. That's not to say you can't run an army without them, but I wouldn't suggest this as an alternative and I'm not changing my opinion on the matter. If we could use meltaguns, sure.

Maybe it's not such a big deal in your meta, but I've grown accustomed to frequent blobs-in-trees and blobs-behind-defense-lines. As well as super-stealth-mode units, like pathfinders, rangers, and the like. The ability to bang a cover save down to 2+ or 3+ has become fairly widespread in 6th edition. Flamers ignore cover, and TFCs don't.

Even then, I'm not saying don't take a TFC. Just that if you happen to have a 95 point hole in your list and a FA slot open, a flamer-squad in a pod can be a pretty sweet deal.

The Stormtalon is unimpressive. Not bad, but unimpressive. And there's no way they'll ever give it stats that are good enough that I'd swallow my pride and field that piece-of-crap model in my army.

you have to mod the model to make it look decent. The guns are in bad places and far too large.

Ugh. Tell me about it. I will be more intrigued by them if I ever see one of them converted to look pretty.

Thunder fire cannons can ignore cover, where are you getting this from?

Your opponent gets his armour, but not his cover save. TFC is S6AP5, S5AP6 or S4AP- but causes enemies to move as if going through difficult and dangerous.

I've made the stormtalon look a way I like; I put the Asscans on the wings and made them smaller (I think they're the Assault cannons in sammael's land speeder?) I then took two typhoon missile launchers and put them where the front landing gear/asscannons are meant to be.

Do all three fire modes ignore cover? Or is it just Airburst? Pretty sure it was just airburst. Which means Tau Pathfinders still get their armor saves, whereas the flamer squad almost certainly wipes them out to a man. In any event, the two choices don't even compete for an FOC slot, so it isn't like you can't take them both.

Do you have pics on your custom talon? I'd love to take a look at it some time.

As a side note, another thread on here made me think of something. Are you going to do an additional part to this series where you compare the various weapons available to the Space Marines? You seem to agree with me on the role-confusion inherent in the autocannon, but that doesn't seem to be a very popular opinion these days. I'd be interested to see your take on how the various weapons stack up against one another.

 Jimsolo wrote:


I think this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions in 40k. In WoW, raw math trumps pretty much everything else. In 40k, the game has much more to it than raw numbers. Not saying that mathematical analysis doesn't have a place, just that it isn't the be-all-end-all in this game.

I don't deny its not all about Mathhammer, but when you're doing a straight up comparison between to weapons, what else are you going to use?

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:


I think this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions in 40k. In WoW, raw math trumps pretty much everything else. In 40k, the game has much more to it than raw numbers. Not saying that mathematical analysis doesn't have a place, just that it isn't the be-all-end-all in this game.

I don't deny its not all about Mathhammer, but when you're doing a straight up comparison between to weapons, what else are you going to use?

It's easier to do a straight numbers comparison there, true, but you can also consider what model(s) they are available on, their points costs, what their likely targets are, and what army rules can synergize with them.