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So say I (player A) have a 10 man unit of Space Marines wielding boltpistols and cc-weapons.

My opponent (Player B) also has a 10 man unit of Space Marines wielding boltpistols and cc-weapons.

When either my or my opponent's squad want to attack an enemy, they move, then shoot 10 S4 AP5 shots, and then charge with 30 S4 AP- attacks in cc.

Now if, as part of hobby and conversion, I order 10 arms bearing boltpistols, swap out the cc-weapon wielding arms of my squad, and stick the pistol arms on them, then for the same amount of points, I can now:

...move, then shoot 20 S4 AP5 shots, and then charge with 30 S4 AP- attacks in cc. Is this correct?

If so, this is a nasty advantage I am given by GW itself for modeling. Isnt this the textbook representation of MfA? Literally taking the fun out of the game because I pay 0 extra points to essentially DOUBLE my ranged firepower, equivalent to rapid-firing bolters, except I get to charge afterward as well.

Now, since most SM box sets come with a plethora of pistol holsters, can't my opponent simply glue those on to the thighs of his Space Marines and say that they are now also all armed with 2 pistols, the 2nd one being in the holster? Or would that be illegal as he would have to remove the cc-weapons as otherwise each model would be bearing 3 weapons? But the rulebook doesnt say a model cannot be "decorated" with more weapons than it can legally own, right? It would just mean it wont be able to use any weapons other than the ones it can actually equip / you paid the points for. Also, the rulebook doesnt say anywhere that a weapon must be unholstered and preferably in the model's hands to count as being wielded, right? After all, you can stick a crisis suits weapons on its shoulders and still count them as working.

What is your take on this whole issue?

My house rule: 2 boltpistols indeed give you 2 S4 AP5 shots and allow you to charge, but you do not get +1A for 2ccws.

 Sir Arun wrote:


Now if, as part of hobby and conversion, I order 10 arms bearing boltpistols, swap out the cc-weapon wielding arms of my squad, and stick the pistol arms on them, then for the same amount of points, I can now:

...move, then shoot 20 S4 AP5 shots, and then charge with 30 S4 AP- attacks in cc. Is this correct?

Only if your marines actually have the option in their rules to swap their Ccw for a pistol.

Otherwise, that's not MFA... It's just an illegal unit.

Hang on, have the units in question even got the option to take 2 bolt pistols?

Where in the codex is the option to swap the Bolter or CCW for a Bolt Pistol? Answer me that first.

As for having two pistols, you will indeed gain +1 attack in close combat. Only ways I'm aware of to do that are with certain squads in Marines and Chaos Marines who can swap a CCW for a plasma pistol.

No. ASM have a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. There is no option to swap out either for another BP. You could have a BP+PP setup if you pay the points, but not a 2xBP.

The codex says e.g. space marine scout squads are armed with a boltpistol and can replace their boltgun with a cc-weapon.

Page 51 of the BRB (7th paragraph) states that a pistol can be used as a cc-weapon.

So why cant you model a scout with 2 boltpistols? As per the rules it has 1 boltpistol and 1 cc-weapon, doesn't it?


Edit: nevermind, my argument is ridiculous. I just thought something along the lines of "if A equals B (i.e. boltpistol can equal cc-weapon), why can't B equal A" but then realized that sounds slowed.


Still, one thought remains: if you want to equip your tactical squad sarge with a plasma pistol (and give him +1A for 2ccws), never swap his bolter out for a cc-weapon, and instead just swap his bolter for the plasma pistol.

 Sir Arun wrote:
The codex says e.g. space marine scout squads are armed with a boltpistol and can replace their boltgun with a cc-weapon.

Page 51 of the BRB (7th paragraph) states that a pistol can be used as a cc-weapon.

So why cant you model a scout with 2 boltpistols? As per the rules it has 1 boltpistol and 1 cc-weapon, doesn't it?

Why not give them all plasma pistols then? They're pistols.

They only count as a close combat weapon in the assault phase, they are a bolt pistol NOT a close combat weapon.

Because a BP is not a CC weapon, it is a pistol that counts as a cc weapon, but only during an assault.

A Bolt Pistol is not a CCW. The rule you cite gives you permission to exchange the Bolt Gun for a CCW, not a Bolt Pistol. Yes, Pistols are counted as an extra CCW for Assault purposes, but the rule specifically gives you permission only for a CCW, not a pistol.

Also DE archon can get 2 pistols via wargear.

Sisters seraphim have 2 pistols.

If you don't get the option to have 2 pistols as wargear, you can't gunslinger, no matter how you model them.

 Sir Arun wrote:
The codex says e.g. space marine scout squads are armed with a boltpistol and can replace their boltgun with a cc-weapon.

Page 51 of the BRB (7th paragraph) states that a pistol can be used as a cc-weapon.

So why cant you model a scout with 2 boltpistols? As per the rules it has 1 boltpistol and 1 cc-weapon, doesn't it?

When it's talking swapping for a CCW, it means an explicit CCW, as in the only rules for the weapon are it's a close combat weapon. It doesn't give you permission to swap for something that counts as a CCW during certain times of the game, only an actual CCW.

It would be cool if there were more gunslinger options because the idea of guys going full Bandito status is really appealing to me, but unfortunately that's not what the rules allow.

On one hand, an entry that allows you to replace something with a generic CC weapon doesn't allow you to pick any CC weapon under the sun. (Otherwise, all my tactical sergeants are taking Huskblades for free! Wheee!)

On the other hand, there are lots of ways to get gunslinger. Vanguard vets can all go Wyatt Earp. So can Command Squads. I've thought it'd be fun to do something like that for a while now.

@JimSolo: I've been debating doing it for some Chosen that I'd run along Cypher once I get that model in. I should totally model them all with cowboy hats.

 Ascalam wrote:
Also DE archon can get 2 pistols via wargear.

Sisters seraphim have 2 pistols.

If you don't get the option to have 2 pistols as wargear, you can't gunslinger, no matter how you model them.

Don't forget henchmen acolytes...

I made a 5 man BA Vanguard vet squad all with bolt pistols and hand flamers for just this sort of fun. The sarge has a power maul instead of a bolt pistol and they all have meltabombs. The cool thing about the squad is it can attack anything in the game and do well at it. May not be the best use of points, but it sure is fun!

 Jimsolo wrote:
Vanguard vets can all go Wyatt Earp. So can Command Squads. I've thought it'd be fun to do something like that for a while now.

Only by taking plasma pistols or grav pistols, which are exceedingly costly. Sadly there is no boltpistol option in the armory.

 Sir Arun wrote:
The codex says e.g. space marine scout squads are armed with a boltpistol and can replace their boltgun with a cc-weapon.

Page 51 of the BRB (7th paragraph) states that a pistol can be used as a cc-weapon.

So why cant you model a scout with 2 boltpistols? As per the rules it has 1 boltpistol and 1 cc-weapon, doesn't it?


Edit: nevermind, my argument is ridiculous. I just thought something along the lines of "if A equals B (i.e. boltpistol can equal cc-weapon), why can't B equal A" but then realized that sounds slowed.


Still, one thought remains: if you want to equip your tactical squad sarge with a plasma pistol (and give him +1A for 2ccws), never swap his bolter out for a cc-weapon, and instead just swap his bolter for the plasma pistol.

While a pistol weapon can be used in a combat as a close combat weapon it is in fact not a close combat weapon. The space marine codex lists the bolt pistol as a ranged weapon. As far as the option to replace a boltgun with a cc-weapon is concerned the bolt pistol is not a cc-weapon.

All pistols are CC Weapons.

Not all CC Weapons are pistols.

For the purposes of this game. I like to consider a CC Weapon as a stick...an AP-less, nonmodifying anything that someone managed to pick up from somewhere...it's a stick.

You can't go taking a combi-bolter just because you were given permission to take a bolter.

Firehawk Chapter Trait Vanguard vets with bolt pistol and hand flamer with meltabombs. Nice little unit. May not want to go all out with it, but still gives the unit a lot of options.

As many have posted above, You can only "Gunsligner" when you have the codex option to do so.

To all examples above, i'd like to add Sister Superiors in the AS codex that have:
"The Sister Superior or Veteran Sister Superior may take itemS from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists" Emphasis mine.

4 Dominions with Melta gun and the Superior with 2 plasma pistols for 30pts is within the rules and the advantage (not really MFA) the OP was referring to ;-)