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So maybe it's an entirely valid argument that I suck or I'm just not as good as you guys but I just don't know what to use in my skaven armies anymore.

I prepare for armored units, high toughness models, units with high toughness and armor, more skilled units (just about all of them), skirmishers and whatever else but I just get trounced and every victory I have to fight a hard fought battle to win.

I have to deal with lizardmen with slann (7th and 8th) along with flying skirmisher units, monsters and weapons teams with fantastic core and I just can't handle em often because they out-shoot me, out-magic me and out-close combat me as well as out-maneuver with flying units. I fight against warriors of chaos and have to take on a daemon prince and even after killing 39 warriors of chaos the one left is still frenzied and the monsters or gorebeast chariots just finish me off even when he runs headlong into warpfire thrower shots and loses 5 guys per shot while being led along like an idiot). I fight against daemons and I have to face a mono-nurgle list with epidemius and guys with base toughness 5 or something and strength 5 with a -1 to hit in close combat when you fight them and once again more daemon princes or soul grinders. I even have to face elves (dark and high only) with spectacular shenanigans and really skilled guys (i'll admit I haven't faced them in a while) and I can't do much because they have silly banners, nice magic, great maneuvering with cavalry and flying units, some alright shooting and nice elite units.

So today I asked somebody and they said the reason is that skaven are getting old and don't have many options for anti armor. I hear people say skaven are a top tier army (faction) but I only ever face supposedly top tier armies. Nobody plays anything else no matter where I go for the most part beyond a couple people.

So I dunno anymore what to do. Should I even use a screaming bell? If I do I don't want to put my general on there as he'll just get sniped off by cannons and it's so expensive with lords points I don't think I can do anything else unless I just throw a warlord out somewhere. However I'd need the leadership bubble of a general on a large target for my skaven esp. for small skirmishing units. It just all becomes very annoying. I use poisoned wind globes and not only can they not hit the broad side of a barn but they might kill themselves, their poor leadership and being out in the field means they probably will run away anyway. I use plague censer bearers and they're decent but if they are stuck in a combat longer than the first one they just die. I use rat ogres for some decent strength attack and stomp and sometimes they're good but they are supposedly over-costed esp. considering all the current monstrous infantry, they have no saves of any kind and they are very basic with frenzy. Not to mention any skaven unit which can hold it's own in close combat is frenzied and therefore will have to deal with frenzy tests and re-directors trying to force them to overrun into stupid areas to get flanked so you need to shoot them but your shooting units are just not good enough to kill simple re-directors (except gutter runners which are expensive but awesome). As I said before gutter runners are expensive but awesome. However it's still just strength 3 poisoned shooting so an enemy gets every save possible against the shots. Stormvermin are alright but compared to units from other armies saying they're elite is a joke. I could take the plague furnace but then that can also get their furnaces sniped by cannons and you can only have 2 in about 2500 pts and that takes away all your hero possibilities beyond two base level 1 plague priests on furnaces.

Most of the skaven army is painfully strength 3. We can almost never hope to win any combat unless it's with the abomination or a couple other fights. We have nearly no armor and no cavalry. Nothing we have is fast movement-wise because we have no flyers or cavalry (our fastest things are random movement unless you want to wait several turns for gutter runners to pop up through a tunnel). If you don't flank or have a bajillion guys you lose which is very likely in games that have an upper limit of 50 models per unit. The magic phase is in serious need of an 8th edition update just so our spells can have boosted versions that cost more to cast but actually have range beyond 12". Our shooting could use a bit of a boost so that stuff other than warpfire throwers, warp lightning cannons and gutter runners poisoned slings are worth taking. Also it would be nice to have units beyond 3 rare choices, core unit spam and gutter runners that are decent to take.

So what am I doing wrong? Should I just make units of a bajillion skaven better? I tried to deploy lots of fairly small units (25-30 models) for flanking possibilities but I faced a vampire counts player and even flanking his crypt horrors in combat didn't do enough combat resolution to wipe them out after which I just ended up getting my unit killed next turn.

I have no idea what to do anymore in these games. I take stormvermin because they can throw a punch and they get slaughtered in most fights. I take numbers of units and I end up facing a horde which causes fear and is unstable and unbreakable and I can't do anything. It's almost like everybody says skaven are OP but then suddenly when I ask about all the different units most say various units suck or are not worth taking except rares, core and gutter runners with poisoned slings.

So thanks for reading this and putting up with me. I'm just very upset over a horrible destruction yesterday and another loss today. If you could do anything to help me that'd be appreciated but I feel like skaven as a faction aren't as awesome as their opponents make them out to be or maybe I just suck. Both answers are very possible.

The only thing people are complaining about in the Skaven book these days are blocks of 100 slaves clogging up the battlefield.

Personally, I agree with you. When I face Skaven nowadays, I have little to fear. Abomination and Doomwheel are manageable enough and the Screaming Bell/ Plague Furnace are slow enough to avoid until I can gang up on them or magic them to death.

The book was incredibly strong under 7th, got stronger at the beginning of 8th, and is now feeling the effects of an aging book. I'm sure Skaven will get updated eventually, but for the time being they may have fallen to a mid-tier army.

What faction do you play that's easy to face skaven with?

I mean I would just like to have more stuff to use. Maybe some units with decent movement would be nice, a flying unit or some cavalry. I don't feel like I'm asking for much I just want my army to not be a clog full of slaves and rare choices and that's it.

Not to mention the army is becoming less like winning in movement and how you place your units and more into how much you can invest in double grey seer with double 13th spell and lots of rare choices. It's mostly just one playstyle of hordes with full rare choices and nothing else. What happened to the strategy of flanking enemies? Why do my guys have to lose every combat? It's infinitely worse if I'm flanked considering my 'strength in numbers' goes away. If people know skaven enough skaven are really easy to fight against. Besides just about everybody has some flaming attacks these days anyway. The abomination usually does well but I prefer my army to be more than just the abomination pulling the army's weight around.

Mostly Warriors of Chaos and High Elves.

But considering I am far from a "power gamer" and do not employ the BotWD or the unkillable characters offered in the WoC book, it is saying something that I still have little issues with Skaven blocks.

With warriors: breath weapons, multi-charges/ flanking units destroy skaven blocks once we reach combat. Hellcannon is a problem for you as well.

Elves: Well... they're HE... They win in combat, whittle with shooting and magic everything to death.

While I did read your post, honestly I dont feel sorry at all for your position. There are currently 4 armies left to be remade ( WE, Bretts, Skaven and Beastmen) so within the next year you will probably see a new book.

And from where I am sitting you have a LOT more tools to deal with new books than I do with Beastmen. What I can tell you is that you really should try to find ways to just enjoy the game. Look at the new books to challenge you as a general. The better general you are with a weaker army the better general you will be when you step into a new stronger srmy or your book gets redone.

Either way, good lick and keep your chin up

Grix wrote:
While I did read your post, honestly I dont feel sorry at all for your position. There are currently 4 armies left to be remade ( WE, Bretts, Skaven and Beastmen) so within the next year you will probably see a new book.

And from where I am sitting you have a LOT more tools to deal with new books than I do with Beastmen. What I can tell you is that you really should try to find ways to just enjoy the game. Look at the new books to challenge you as a general. The better general you are with a weaker army the better general you will be when you step into a new stronger srmy or your book gets redone.

Either way, good lick and keep your chin up

I know and I'm trying I just don't know what to do. Aside from hording, going for 13th spell or plague and as many rare units as I can fit I just don't know what to do. I want to flank the enemy but often it's easier said than done with such poor movement. I want to shoot at the enemy but ratling guns and poisoned wind globadiers aren't that good. Warpfire throwers and poisoned wind mortars can be good but warpfire throwers are incredibly short ranged and might blow up like all skaven shooting whereas the mortars might go far off target. Perhaps I should use 10 jezzails but they're 52 USD for 3 models so I'm unsure if I want to throw down such a butt load of cash esp. on such an old model.

I just don't know. I'm trying hard and I understand a bit more what it's like for you guys but I feel like I can't really do anything. I don't know how to handle my opponents anymore and they always play top tier new armies with stupid crap like mono-nurgle.

Look at making your own jezzails. If you can find appropriately large historical miniatures with muskets or even *small* cannons, you can pop two rats, a shield, and the weapon down to make your own. More fun, better miniature, and potentially cheaper.

If you are BORED with Skaven, go with a mono-clan theme and mix it up. If you want to win hard core maximize your list as you describe.

Try all shooting. Not the most fun to play AGAINST, but it will be different for you at least. Keep the WFT between blocks as protection/ something to fire into slaves.

Mortars, cannons, jezzails, catapults, doomwheels, and magic will provide you with more than enough shooting to dot the landscape with corpses

Maybe post your army list that you normally run with and see if anyone has suggestions. You could also check out s6.zetaboards.com/The_UnderEmpire/site/‎ , lots of veteran skaven players there who could offer a lot of tips.

Obviously, if you are just playing for fun at you flgs, you dont want to try and list tailor every army, but you can try to come up with little answers for different things. Some generics I can think of for example would be if cannons are giving you trouble, maybe run gutter runners with poison slings to disrupt their backline. High Toughness armies giving you trouble, run more than one warp lightning cannon.

Either way just see what you can come up with and whats fun for you

If you're worried about being outfought, your answer lies in the screaming bellstar+Death frenzy. You outgrind most things and have assassins to fight if you're bit hordes, your opponent has to attack a T5/4++ bell or one of two T4/4++ assassins. And you have all the support of the stormvermin as well as combat Rez.


As for magic, ruin is a basic lore. It has a buff, a debuff, and damagey spells. To get the most out of it, you have to stack certain spells, to make sure your opponent dispels them so you can cast the ones you need. I recommend stacking up on warp lightning. It's cheap to cast and is effective.

As for rares, the big three are the ones to go for. The wheel and abomb are difficult to predict and control. And the cannon is, well, awesome.

Hearing you say lizardmen have great core makes me laugh because I have a lizardmen player near me that complains constantly about how terrible their core is because he keeps comparing them to Warrior of chaos and refuses to use sauraus warriors.

 White Ninja wrote:
Hearing you say lizardmen have great core makes me laugh because I have a lizardmen player near me that complains constantly about how terrible their core is because he keeps comparing them to Warrior of chaos and refuses to use sauraus warriors.

Skinks are cheap and can move around the enemy. They're what 7 points per model for an infantry unit that not only shoot poisoned attacks with decent range but also has poisoned melee attacks now. Also cold-blooded makes sure most lizardmen units rally unless they're below 25% when they're running. Of course that's unlikely. Lizardmen have flyers, monsters, armor, lots of poisoned units, weapons teams that can move, an insanely awesome mage and solid core. Not to mention that new 'predatory fighter' thing gives saurus a free attack for every 6 they roll to hit.

Sorry but I think your friend is just bad or doesn't use anything new or good. I mean earlier on the slann held the army together but now everything in the army is more solid. I can't tell you how annoying skinks are to face. If somebody flees them only to re-group with cold-blooded helping then it's annoying. They can basically shoot and flee till you reach the board edge unless you deploy on an extended front preventing them from getting around and then you just have to get close to them before you charge them and you should be good.

Okay skinks are not alwayg going to rally as you indicated in your post even with Cold Blooded it is still LD 5. Thats not great odds.

It's great odds with a general and/or BSB nearby.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you're worried about being outfought, your answer lies in the screaming bellstar+Death frenzy. You outgrind most things and have assassins to fight if you're bit hordes, your opponent has to attack a T5/4++ bell or one of two T4/4++ assassins. And you have all the support of the stormvermin as well as combat Rez.

I don't agree. Skaven dont need deathstars, it spoils their true strength. Taking multiple steadfast formations which will be Ld9-10 and extending them down the length of the board. Most armeis cann have one or two deep units, ratties get several. They only need to win somewhere where the enemy cant make a stand and then turn the flank while holding elsewhere.

All you need do meanwhile is keep your magic defences up, if you want to cause some mayhem with warmachines then kill-kill as much as your devious rattie schemes permit, but your real strength is in knowing that 50 more clanrats on the flank means 50 clanrats that remove steadfast and rank bonuses then they flank charge.

Build blocks, build them down the line, build therm everywhere and attack everywhere, only gobbos have the numbers to face you and they run easy, well ordered ratties dont.

I find rats to be very finese in this ed. and has a very poor and redundant FAQ. I got back into whf less.than a year ago and i have lost and won against every race ive played. Until the new book comes comes out ive been going unconventional because rats are horribly predictable at this point. With that said, use the predicability to your.advantage and play a game of misdirection.

 Orlanth wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If you're worried about being outfought, your answer lies in the screaming bellstar+Death frenzy. You outgrind most things and have assassins to fight if you're bit hordes, your opponent has to attack a T5/4++ bell or one of two T4/4++ assassins. And you have all the support of the stormvermin as well as combat Rez.

I don't agree. Skaven dont need deathstars, it spoils their true strength. Taking multiple steadfast formations which will be Ld9-10 and extending them down the length of the board. Most armeis cann have one or two deep units, ratties get several. They only need to win somewhere where the enemy cant make a stand and then turn the flank while holding elsewhere.

All you need do meanwhile is keep your magic defences up, if you want to cause some mayhem with warmachines then kill-kill as much as your devious rattie schemes permit, but your real strength is in knowing that 50 more clanrats on the flank means 50 clanrats that remove steadfast and rank bonuses then they flank charge.

Build blocks, build them down the line, build therm everywhere and attack everywhere, only gobbos have the numbers to face you and they run easy, well ordered ratties dont.

See, I find myself happily able to deal with the multiple big block lists of skaven now. But when it comes to the bellstar, I find myself clueless. As It is so hard to fight. As anything you fight is T4+ and has a 4+ ward and is really good at fighting.

To compound on that. Look at the Throgg unit of trolls. The only army I've seen face it comfortably is Skaven. With, you guessed it, the Bellstar. It is, to date. the best Skaven list out there. It's why you always see it in competitive events.

 thedarkavenger wrote:



See, I find myself happily able to deal with the multiple big block lists of skaven now. But when it comes to the bellstar, I find myself clueless. As It is so hard to fight. As anything you fight is T4+ and has a 4+ ward and is really good at fighting.

To compound on that. Look at the Throgg unit of trolls. The only army I've seen face it comfortably is Skaven. With, you guessed it, the Bellstar. It is, to date. the best Skaven list out there. It's why you always see it in competitive events.

Each to their own but...The Bellstar as you call it has its detractors, it is frequently mentioned on the Skaven forums, and is applauded and sneered at in equal measure.

Making a deathstar that is tough to fight is easy, getting one that is tough to not redirect is more difficult. You dont fight deathstars you neutralise them and defeat whats left. For skaven this is not good as you are left only with medium infantry, and shakven need to spread the support about to get anywhere.

As fro the multiple big blocks, if they aren't spaced well enough to get the flank charge in, they are done wrong. Few lists last long against a overruns from large flanking steadfast blocks, zombie swarms, properly kitted out dwarves, tree huggers and some cavalry MSU can survive; the rest crumble.

 captain collius wrote:
Okay skinks are not alwayg going to rally as you indicated in your post even with Cold Blooded it is still LD 5. Thats not great odds.

They used to be leadership 6 in the previous army book and they're still disposable enough in units of 10. I mean what are they 70 pts? For a unit that can be massed enough to take down monsters like no tomorrow. Not only that if you're fighting something like the abomination a few fire bola terradons that hit an abomination first have the ability to nullify the regeneration in one phase and then they can just poison dart it to death. When you think about it lizardmen have quite a few flaming attacks and if you get fire bolas on the terradons and hit a unit just a few times (which is likely) then you can amass shooting on that unit and take things down.

My problem against lizardmen is they have good poisoned skirmishing units (chamelons and normal skinks), they have good core (skinks and saurus warriors), probably not the best cavalry but cavalry nonetheless, monsters, monstrous infantry, a very high level mage, flying units (terradons), high movement units (terradons and cavalry), pretty good weapons teams that can move and fire with one being a more reliable version of the ratling gun and they won't die in one hit like weapons teams for skaven (the salamanders can't stand and shoot though razordons get double artillery dice shots which is huge) and just so much. I try to outfight them but they can just snipe out my weapons teams, run circles around me with high movement and kill off my artillery with flyers, out-magic me every turn pretty much, pretty much out-shoot me across the board and their combat can't be engaged head on or I die no matter what I seem to use. Kroxigor are now strength 5 so great weapons make them strength 7. Stegadons can kill monsters better now, carnosaurs can kill monsters well, kroxigor can kill monsters well and even skinks can. That ends up being a lot of units that my monsters or large targets have to stay away from.

So I dunno lizardmen are really, really good. Sometimes I try to snipe out the slann with my warp lightning cannons but there's a totally huge chance that the 4+ ward save will protect it and it often does. Plus they have 5 wounds on them.

---------------------

I'll admit I don't face ogres as much anymore but they're also pretty good with impact hits, stomps and like 3 attacks (which means even a flank is suicide against them). Skaven have plenty of multiple wound weapons but it helps if a good portion of them weren't so random. Cracks call would help but I'm fearful of throwing out a high level mage into an enemy's flank just to take out a bunch of ogres. Don't get me wrong warp lightning cannons do a lot of damage but they have to hit the enemy with the blast to do it. I can snipe a few ogres out with it but it may not be enough. Warpfire throwers are very short ranged but could help.

There are a few other factions that are pretty good too and they're mostly of the new ones.

Also it doesn't matter how high initiative skaven have since most of the armies have a way of becoming always strikes first or throwing always strikes last on your skaven. Not to mention dark and high elves have always strikes first and high initiative so most of the time they re-roll to hit anyway and go first even if you've got stormvermin out there. I'll admit this isn't as much the case anymore with swordmasters and white lions (thank god) but it used to be.

----------------------

I'd say more but this post is becoming way too long.

Im by no means a great player, but ive found that plague censer bearers backing up a unit of monks beats most things pretty easily.
Throw a priest in there for a bit more damage if needed.

Other than that, i just run a large block of upgraded stormvermin and a BSB with queek to do damage.
Or if points permit, i throw deathmaster in there too since he grinds through most things pretty easily.

As with alot of armies though, skaven struggle alot in combat due to poor saves and low T.
Deathstars work, but not really the skaven way.
You need to pretty much destroy the unit your facing in the 1st turn to reduce any casualties.
Grinding away at them wont cut it.

However, most of my army is now magic or shooting based anyway with an Abomb and 2 units of monks and censers to back them up for anything that gets too close.

I really do hate the whole "massive horde" though.
Dont get me wrong, i like big units, but some people take it too far with skaven.
Moving 400 models a turn, even in trays is not my idea of fun.

Putting in a scury banner on the bellstar in a closed list can be effective. You need a big unit pushing though. 50+. Even then you only get the random move 50% of the time. At least you can march into someones face and make them fight you.

 Orlanth wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:



See, I find myself happily able to deal with the multiple big block lists of skaven now. But when it comes to the bellstar, I find myself clueless. As It is so hard to fight. As anything you fight is T4+ and has a 4+ ward and is really good at fighting.

To compound on that. Look at the Throgg unit of trolls. The only army I've seen face it comfortably is Skaven. With, you guessed it, the Bellstar. It is, to date. the best Skaven list out there. It's why you always see it in competitive events.

Each to their own but...The Bellstar as you call it has its detractors, it is frequently mentioned on the Skaven forums, and is applauded and sneered at in equal measure.

Making a deathstar that is tough to fight is easy, getting one that is tough to not redirect is more difficult. You dont fight deathstars you neutralise them and defeat whats left. For skaven this is not good as you are left only with medium infantry, and shakven need to spread the support about to get anywhere.

As fro the multiple big blocks, if they aren't spaced well enough to get the flank charge in, they are done wrong. Few lists last long against a overruns from large flanking steadfast blocks, zombie swarms, properly kitted out dwarves, tree huggers and some cavalry MSU can survive; the rest crumble.

Is it really that hard to fit slaves, rat darts and swarms in a list? They're all so cheap, they allow the bellstar to get into position. And they're all so cheap, your opponent ha a to charge the bellstar to get points. And both those situations mean the skaven win.

Slaves and rat darts are cheap. However that's forcing all your quality into one unit. A screaming bell with a grey seer riding it costs 440 pts base. Factoring in that if you make him your general he's now the target of tons of cannons all across the board as well as the stupid bell.

Not only that but if you have a unit pushing the bell that's more points to add to the whole mess. I'm not entirely sure why you'd take the bell without the general giving the leadership bubble on top but I'd rather my general not be cannon fodder like all large target generals.

It's a fairly expensive sink in points and that's just the seer, bell and unit pushing it. The assassins haven't even been factored in (costs 120 pts each and takes up to 50 pts worth of gear) and this is if you take all of these guys without much gear. In this list you basically threw down 680 pts without gear factored in or the unit pushing the bell. This could end up being in between 900-1000 pts. Then we have to take other stuff like the rares which cost 415 pts for a regular abomination (if there is such a thing) and 2 warp lightning cannons. Other than that you can spend the rest wherever you want including slaves and all that jazz. I would like to convince you that maybe you'd like all your bases covered so you don't get re-directed and flanked or just get the stupid bell sniped out under your nose. That means the storm banner is going to need to come out pretty fast which is another thing to invest into. Some people may not understand that the bell actually kills some of the skaven pushing it depending on the dice result you rolled or in the worst case scenario rolling a triple 6 in the worst possible area. You also have to note the Bell's powers are only active till the end of your turn and not until your next turn. This makes guessing which buff you're going to roll up very hard for you when charging and moving just before you find out.

There's just not too many points left to spend after all of this and chances are a lot would go into core even if you need some specialist troops that could handle armor or various other things. I'm not thrilled about all your eggs being in one basket in a death star. It's basically massacre or be massacred by your opponent. Oh and skaven have a lot of frenzied units so if they do somehow win a fight with death frenzy not only will they lose guys at the end of the turn for the negative effect of the spell but if the enemy breaks and flees you have no choice to hold back. You absolutely have to charge after them. This puts your unit out in the middle of nowhere often or with the possibility of getting flanked.

Anyway this is just some of the stuff I see in my mind. It's a big point sink but it might be somewhat fun to use.

The Bellstar is garbage as soon as you face Cannons as the whole army falls apart when the Seer dies

It's also the most common "power list" and competitive people know how to face it, it also includes a huge load of point into a unit that doesn't really want to be in combat either . Of course it denies points well, but it doesn't take points very well either

If you manage your defensive layout well with Skavens, your Bunker won't be attacked at all in CC and you save a load of points that can instead be used to take more toys and Slave-walls / chaff

The Bellstar is only meant as a points-denial in an ETC-style system with ETC-style match-ups. It's not great into a normal tournament. You're not looking to win with a Bellstar army, just to draw or close enough

TanKoL wrote:
The Bellstar is garbage as soon as you face Cannons as the whole army falls apart when the Seer dies

It's also the most common "power list" and competitive people know how to face it, it also includes a huge load of point into a unit that doesn't really want to be in combat either . Of course it denies points well, but it doesn't take points very well either

If you manage your defensive layout well with Skavens, your Bunker won't be attacked at all in CC and you save a load of points that can instead be used to take more toys and Slave-walls / chaff

The Bellstar is only meant as a points-denial in an ETC-style system with ETC-style match-ups. It's not great into a normal tournament. You're not looking to win with a Bellstar army, just to draw or close enough

It takes 4 cannons to kill a bell. Minimum. One will miss, one will get warded, and it takes two to actually kill it. As for knowing how to face it, look at throgg's unit. It can beat most combat blocks. Hands down. Excluding the bellstar.

As for defensive layouts, with the prominence of demon princes, and other flying characters, you really will have a hard time doing that.

As for the tournament styles. It regularly places high in uk tournaments, and we, mostly(the sensible folk), view ETC as a stupid system that takes the hobby and fun out of warhammer.

So I lost a game today due to a crap ton of empire handgunners which can apparently stand and shoot anything that charges their parent units without technically standing and shooting and therefore not taking a negative modifier for it. They didn't do fantastic against me but they whittled me down hard. The rat ogres also managed to miss 7 out of 8 of their attacks and then fail to wound with that one attack only managing to do anything with stomps which was super unlucky. The censer bearers did ok but not fantastic. They managed to kill quite a bit but all died. The abomination also failed his regeneration saves pretty hard and stayed dead without spawning rat swarms or anything. It's honestly getting pretty f*cking annoying to get owned all the time so maybe my list just sucked and I need to build more clanrats and slaves.

The warlord/skitterleap combo with the 2+/4++ from armor of silvered steel and a 4+ ward save from a talisman in the rulebook helped a lot. Basically after I skitterleapt and my turn was over I popped the storm banner. This made all his non-BS shooting need 4+ to shoot and all his BS shooting at -2 to hit. Sadly it effected my warp lightning cannons later but I will say the combo though a bit expensive was able to take out at least the helblaster and would've taken out the cannon too if I attacked from the correct angle and prevented myself from getting charged. Killing that cannon first would've been preferable considering I would've been able to overrun into the helblaster in his turn.

So that tactic I did with skitterleap, the warlord and the storm banner was moderately successful. It definitely got rid of some heat but without enough dudes on the field it wasn't really too big of a deal. I suppose this could also work with an assassin since they come auto with a 4+ ward save. You could just take a 2+ armor save and then just run up the field.

There is a possibility that my new tactic could help vs war machines and to tie up gunlines or other weak units. It is definitely an interesting prospect and I think I will contemplate on it more. Perhaps if I skitterleap some chieftain with decent armor once the war machines are dead then I can tie up his gunmen with chieftains that have decent armor and halberds or something. By that time the enemy would probably react enough that skitterleap would be ineffective but it seems to be pretty useful if you can get it off early on.

----------------

So things haven't been great but I did manage to at least handle war machines within a turn or two and nullify/weaken them for the turn before I charged them. I've been thinking about doing this for a while but I just didn't think I had the combo to handle it though considering a cannon couldn't really fire cannonballs at your warlord so close to it you should be ok (though the secondary fire was annoying).

Somehow I feel like the enemy would also throw a lot of magic at it if they had any but most find magic missiles and similar to be a waste. Who knows? Maybe this will be an ok set-up. It's not great but it's nice for war machines to be distracted for a couple turns or killed. That's another turn of the horde moving on up un-affected by a lot of things. The dispel scroll may also help as well preventing any magic from coming through.

Here is a rough version of the Skaven army I borrowed from a friend of mine while my wife is painting mine up for me

2500 points

Lords:
Warlord 228 (Warlock-Augmented Weapon, Armor of Destiny, Ironcurse Icon)
Grey Seer 340 (Earthing Rod, Talisman of Preservation, Skalm)

Heroes:
Chieftain [BSB] 120 (Storm Banner)
Plague Priest 279 (Flail, Dispel Scroll, Furnace)
Warlock Engineer 115 (L1, Doomrocket, Condenser)

Core:
51 Clanrats 315 (WFT, FC)
2x50 Slaves 204 (Musician)
50 Slaves 106 (Pawleader, Musician)

Special:
6 Gutter Runners 108 (Slings, Poison)
35 Plague Monks 300 (FC, Plague Banner)

Rare:
HPA 235
Doomwheel 150


So far I've played w/this army twice, once again Dwarfs and once against Orcs. Won both games. I'm chalking it up to the newb factor b/c I just recently began playing. The army I'm building is also Pestilens focused, so this is good practice for me. Something like this feels relatively solid, maybe shift some things around?