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I see this one has been debated in an internal swedish FAQ. When Overwatching, you can do a normal shooting attack. MC's can normally fire two weapons. But is it two 'attacks'? The FAQ ruled against MC's firing two weapons (wrong call, imo).

Were do you stand?

I think the MCs, models with two pistols, walkers and Tau battlesuits should all make their normal shooting attack whenever they are permitted to make out of turn shooting attacks (ie Intercepter and Overwatch). This would mean that, for them, they may fire two (or more in the case of the Walker) ranged weapons.

However, I think there is enough flex in the wording that both for and against are supportable opinions and will remain so baring further clarification from GW.

Just remember, the only restriction on firing one weapon, is in the shooting phase (if they want to play that game), so either, overwatch if treated exactly like a shooting phase (with a few noted differences), or any model with more than one weapon can fire them all in overwatch.

It is 2 weapons or all weapons. It really is that simple. Restriction to firing just 1 weapon has literally no rules support.

Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

If it's not a shooting phase, there's no rule restricting models to firing one weapon.

"Normal shooting attack" is the line it describes what models can do iirc. Is a normal shooting attack firing two weapons? I think not.

You do realise you've just said "It doesn't say I can't"? You need to show the permission.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
"Normal shooting attack" is the line it describes what models can do iirc. Is a normal shooting attack firing two weapons? I think not.

For MCs it absolutely is.

You do realise you've just said "It doesn't say I can't"? You need to show the permission.

So wrong it hurts. You've completely and utterly failing to try and understand the argument.
I have permission to make a normal shooting attack. A normal shooting attack for MCs allows 2 weapons. Cite the denial. I've shown permission.
You're saying that the permission for an MC to fire two weapons requires being in the shooting phase. Fine.

I have permission to make a shooting attack. I opt to fire 2 weapons with my Tac Marine. Cite a rule that denies my ability to do so - I already have permission to fire and rules directing me to pick which weapon(s) to fire.

Show your work please.

The rules for overwatch explicitly state to treat it like a shooting phase, with additional rules.

I take this to mean anything your model can do in the shooting phase, it can do in overwatch. If your model can overwatch and it can fire 2 or more weapons in the shooting phase, it can bring all it's arms to bear in overwatch following the additional rules overwatch entails (most notably having to snapfire).

The people in my neck of the woods have all agreed this means you can nominate one model in a squad to huck a non-blast grenade (like Haywire or Krak) as a snapfire attack if the model charging was already in range.

Milage and interpretation may vary with that one, though.

Where is a normal shooting atttack defined? If I recall its in the shooting phase section and thus has no bearing on what a player can do in overwatch.

Now if overwatch uses the rules for the shooting phase then rules that apply in the shooting phase apply when doing overwatch.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The rules for overwatch explicitly state to treat it like a shooting phase, with additional rules.

It actually doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FirePainter wrote:
Where is a normal shooting atttack defined? If I recall its in the shooting phase section and thus has no bearing on what a player can do in overwatch.

So the restriction to only firing one weapon (that also only applies in the shooting phase) does not apply. Thanks for buffing Tac Squads in overwatch!

Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

Since as you point out the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase there is no rules support for restricting how many weapons ANYONE can fire. So if that is your line of reasoning you charge a tactical squad with bolters and I fire 30 bolt rounds a frag grenade and a krak grenade at you (20 rapidfire boltgun shots, 10 bolt pistol shots, 1 frag grenade instead of a krak grenade, 1 krak grenade instead of a frag).

"Normal shooting attack" is the line it describes what models can do iirc. Is a normal shooting attack firing two weapons? I think not.

Why do you think not using rules? I'd say firing two weapons certainly is normal for a MC or Tau Battlesuit.

rigeld2 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FirePainter wrote:
Where is a normal shooting atttack defined? If I recall its in the shooting phase section and thus has no bearing on what a player can do in overwatch.

So the restriction to only firing one weapon (that also only applies in the shooting phase) does not apply. Thanks for buffing Tac Squads in overwatch!

I was putting that there to show its absurd nature. If you do not use the rules for the shooting phase in overwatch then yes every unit with 2 guns can fire both in overwatch which is not RAW. You use the rules for the shooting phase in overwatch and thus Tac sqauds can fire 1 gun, pistol or bolter. MC, units with multitrackers, gunslingers can fire both as it is their normal shooting attack.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

By that logic you can not shoot either

I had a thread about this sort of thing before
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/565137.page

Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

A tau battlesuit's multitracker says "in the shooting phase", that is not when shooting. It is limited only to the shooting phase.

I did use rules fling in fact I did recall correctly the definition of what models are allowed to do in overwatch. A normal shooting attack. That is a single attack normal shooting is defined in the shooting phase rules. Now for the ability to fire more than one weapon you actually do have to provide actual permission.

Rigeld. I understand what you're saying. I disagree and read the rules to say that overwatch is not a shooting phase. Similarly vector strike is neither combat nor shooting.

Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

So a marine squad can only fire 1 boltguns now? A shooting attack is a unit firing all the weapons it is allowed to fire.

So why are you restricted to 1 weapon? Where is normal shooting attack defined as firing 1 weapon?

Well fling I showed where. 1 attack per model in the unit that is in range.... you do have the brb to check the shooting rules don't you?

pg 13 defines that most models can shoot one weapon, rolling one dice unless their weapon allows for more. To get more shooting attacks you need to show permission. Which you've not done.

Page 13 says no such thing it says most models can only fire 1 shot. It makes no mention of number of weapons a model can fire. That is found only when in reference to the shooting phase.

You fire with units. You have a choice to not fire with certain models. The only restriction on how many weapons a model may fire is in the shooting phase. So if shooting phase stuff doesn't work why am I restricted to 1 weapon per model?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

By that logic you can not shoot either

No, the rules allow me to make a normal shooting attack. So overwatch is not a shooting phase, it allows you to make shooting attacks but not gain all of the advantages of normal shooting.

One weapon is a shooting attack. Two weapons is two shooting attacks. Look at roll to hit on page 13. It says what most models get to do ie the norm. So you're looking for a restriction on something you don't have permission to do in overwatch?

One weapon is a shooting attack. Two weapons is two shooting attacks.

So again with tac squads only getting to overwatch with 1 gun. Remember that the unit only gets 1 shooting attack per the Overwatch rules. Also 1 shooting attack = 1 weapon firing is not supported by the rules at all.

I'm not sure why you keep misrepresenting what I'm saying...
Shooting phase tells us how you resolve shooting attacks top of page 12. Roll to hit defines that resolution as being 1 dice rolled unless you have a weapon that allows more dice.

To get to shoot an additional weapon you need permission.

Now I know you're going to point out that 1 attack means only one model fires in the unit based on nothing but unit's don't attack, models do. Units select targets and the shots are resolved on a per model basis based on their stats, the weapon they're firing, if they've moved etc.

BrB page 13 wrote:Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later

Note the total lack of it saying models only get to fire 1 weapon or any mention of the number of weapons a model can or normally does fire. Also nothing stating that a normal shooting attack is with 1 weapon...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shooting attacks are made by units, shots are made by models.

Page 51 defines the ability to shoot only one ranged weapon. Now using page 13 we see that it's one ranged weapon... using 1 dice unless it has more than one shot that makes up a shooting attack. A normal shooting attack.

So where is the permission to fire more than one weapon in overwatch? You must have it....

A unit makes shooting attacks, that shooting attack that each model gets to make is as above. If you can construe this into more than one shot per model please show how?

So we know we get to make a shooting attack with the unit. We know that part of that is the to hit roll. Are we agreed so far?

How many to hit rolls we make will be determined by our weapons correct?

A unit is given permission to fire with any or all of its models (assuming in range) correct?

Those models may fire 1 or more shots correct? For most models it is apparently only 1 shot. How do we know how many shots a model gets to fire? Look at its weapons. So a model that has 1 weapon with 3 shots and another weapon with 2 shots has permission to fire how many shots? If page 51 didn't state that you can only fire 1 of your weapons in the shooting phase how many weapons could you fire in the shooting phase if you had 2 weapons?

Have you intentionally ignored the facts layed out before you?

Page 51 brb " unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than 1 shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot- he can not shoot both in the same SHOOTING PHASE"

This is the only restriction for shooting only 1 weapon, and as can clearly be seen, it is limited to the shooting phase.

So on to "unless otherwise stated"

Page 48 brb. Monstrous creatures can fire up to 2 of their weapons each shooting phase..."

Tau multitracker " a model with a multitracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase"

Is overwatch a shooting phase?

If yes, then the above rules apply.

If no, then the restriction to firing only 1 weapon does not apply.

Either way MC's and models with multitrackers can fire 2 weapons.

Dispute that with rules.

Well do you have permission to fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase ignoring page 51? If so please show it.

You are now actually saying it doesn't say I cannot. You don't have permission to fire a 2nd weapon in the shooting phase (unless explicitly said so) and you have a general restriction. Without permission it doesn't matter.

Now once you've done with all of that, show me where a normal shooting attack is firing 2 weapons.

Ok, there is not specific restriction but there is no general permission. If you cannot show a permission, you cannot do it. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong but only if you can show a permission.
Overwatch isn't a shooting phase because the rules don't say it is. I cannot accept something that I don't see in existence in the rules.

Did you read what I posted?

Where did i say "it doesn't say I can't"?

How many weapons can a model fire? Page 51 tells me that you may only fire 1 weapon in each shooting phase unless otherwise stated.

Both the MC and multitrackers give specific permission to fire a second weapon in the shooting phase.

Again, is overwatch a shooting phase?

Yes? Then MC and multitrackers work.

No? The restriction to firing 1 weapon does not apply.

Clear as day

There is no restriction on firing 1 weapon only but there is no permission to fire more than 1. Clear as day.

Can you show where an overwatch is a shooting phase?

Show where a normal shooting attack is firing 1 weapon. As for showing that a normal shooting attack can include more than 1 weapon answer this:

A full tactical squad makes a normal shooting attack how many weapons does it fire?

You are not given a restriction to firing just 1 weapon per model anywhere except on page 51 which limits that restriction to the shooting phase. You are never told to fire only 1 of your weapons anywhere else. You are given permission to shoot your weapons (it makes no mention of how many) so show the restriction.