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As for 3, that's actually not what the rules say.
During the shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

So that is unit singular, attacks plural.... That means that the unit is making the attacks plural and then you're told how to resolve those shots.
Similarly their is no mention of an overwatch attack being made by the unit. A unit may fire overwatch but that's not the same.

So for a start you guys can't even read the 1st line of the description of the shooting phase's steps.

Most models refers to the normal shooting attack, the basic rules. If 1 d6 rolled for most models as their total shooting attack is more than 1 weapon at play, please explain.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

Nope - that's your flawed interpretation. I've cited permission 3 times and you've failed to actually address it 3 times.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase.

Nope. Unless someone I have on ignore is saying this. The rules certainly don't support it.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

Um. The BRB absolutely does say that a unit can only make one shooting attack.
Because a unit that has already made one cannot be nominated to make another. Seems pretty cut and dry to me - I pointed out your mistake earlier but you again have failed to actually read and comprehend my post.

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

Well, yes. Since there is such a thing as a single model unit, and we know there are times (commonly, ie in literally every codex) where a single model unit will shoot multiple weapons.
In addition to the fact that you were completely wrong when you said a single shooting attack could not be firing two weapons...

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

According to your argument that's exactly what happens. As I've demonstrated. So are you finally agreeing?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

It can't without the shooting rules but does that make it a shooting phase?
The assault phase cannot work without the shooting phase as it builds on it's mechanics... does that make the assault phase a shooting phase too?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

It can't without the shooting rules but does that make it a shooting phase?
The assault phase cannot work without the shooting phase as it builds on it's mechanics... does that make the assault phase a shooting phase too?

Again, if its NOT a shooting phase (which is what your implying) then page 51 doesn't apply. Page 51 has the ONLY rules for how many weapons a model may shoot. Without page 51 you may fire unlimited weapons.

Page 13 is irrelevant as it does not mention multiple weapons, only multiple shots from a single weapon. Read the rules.

Where does it contradict page 12, top of the page 1st line under Nominate Unit to Shoot?

Where does it say that a shooting attack is 1 per unit?

I'm actually asking. I'm not taking the piss. Where does it say that a unit can only make 1 shooting attack? I cannot see that on page 12. What it says in my brb I've pposted at the top of this page.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Where does it contradict page 12, top of the page 1st line under Nominate Unit to Shoot?

Where does it say that a shooting attack is 1 per unit?

I'm actually asking. I'm not taking the piss. Where does it say that a unit can only make 1 shooting attack? I cannot see that on page 12. What it says in my brb I've pposted at the top of this page.

Step one of the shooting phase process.
Exactly like I've said multiple times.
Am I on ignore?

Page 12 "choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet fired this turn"

First step of the shooting sequence

Are you asking where it says that a unit may not perform more than one shooting attack per shooting phase?
Page 12, 'The Shooting Sequence' cutout box, Step 1.
"Nominate a Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn."

Words to the same effect are found just above there (page 12 2nd paragraph) and similarly in the rules summary on page 426 (with subtle variations that lead to other 'disputes')

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

It can't without the shooting rules but does that make it a shooting phase?
The assault phase cannot work without the shooting phase as it builds on it's mechanics... does that make the assault phase a shooting phase too?

Well, either:
1. A "normal shooting attack" is considered to be one made in the shooting phase and uses all of the shooting phase rules, so MCs can fire 2 weapons in overwatch.
2. Overwatch is completely divorced from the shooting phase and after overwatch is declared you don't have any rules to tell you how to resolve the shooting attack.
3. Some shooting phase rules apply but not others, and we arbitrarily decide which ones work and which ones don't because the overwatch rules, unlike the the assault phase rules, do not specify.

As for 3, that's actually not what the rules say.
During the shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

So that is unit singular, attacks plural.... That means that the unit is making the attacks plural and then you're told how to resolve those shots.

How many shooting attacks does a unit of 10 models get to make during Overwatch?

Here's what the rules have go say on the matter:

BrB page 20 wrote:
Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see opposite)

Emphasis mine.

So are you saying that they can only take one shot (e.g. if they have an assault cannon they fire a single shot instead of four)?

Also I'm pretty sure that the article a is relating to the noun kind, not attack.

Edit: Fixing spelling and grammar in this grammar related post.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
1 is at least one. I'm sorry English allows for subjectivity of meaning but you're really desperate to call me a liar. Stop. I've asked repeatedly for you et al to stop and I'd appreciate we debate the issue and not the man.

Indeed.


It's toy soldiers not a court of law.

Drager wrote:
So are you saying that they can only take one shot (e.g. if they have an assault cannon they fire a single shot instead of four)?

Also I'm pretty sure that the article a is relating to the noun kind, not attack.

Edit: Fixing spelling and grammar in this grammar related post.

No I'm staying they make 1 shooting attack which is comprised of potentially many shots from potentially many weapons. It is still 1 shooting attack.

That's not what the rules say fling. The rules say that a unit makes shooting attacks.
There is no rules basis for a unit only making 1 shooting attack.
So there is no basis for the a shooting attack is multiple attacks.

Well in Overwatch you only get to make 1 shooting attack...

So overwatch is one shot only? As it's described as 1 shooting attack while the shooting phase describes a plural of shooting attacks for a unit.

So is a shooting attack all of a unit's shots as per overwatch or is it one of a number of attacks a unit can carry out as per the shooting phase rules?

A shooting attack contains a number of shots from a number of weapons as described in the shooting rules. In overwatch you get 1 shooting attack which contains a number of shots from number of weapons as described in the shooting rules.

You've still failed to show a denial of the permission you agree is present to fire multiple weapons. Please cite that or concede.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
That's not what the rules say fling. The rules say that a unit makes shooting attacks.
There is no rules basis for a unit only making 1 shooting attack.
So there is no basis for the a shooting attack is multiple attacks.

Really? So the following sentence doesn't exist in the rules?

p12 wrote:Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn.

You should take your rulebook and get a new copy then - it's defective.

That doesn't mean one shooting attack per unit. It means you can make shooting attacks once a turn.

You should take back your assertions they're defective.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
That doesn't mean one shooting attack per unit. It means you can make shooting attacks once a turn.

No, it means that you cannot nominate a unit for a shooting attack after it has completed one.
That means the unit can only make a singular shooting attack because when you attempt to nominate for a second shooting attack you are forbidden.

You seem to be missing the top of page 12 where it says you nominate a unit to make shooting attacks....
I agree the rules say you cannot choose a unit that has already fired this turn. That doesn't state that a shooting attack is one per unit.

Please explain why the rules say something different to you?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You seem to be missing the top of page 12 where it says you nominate a unit to make shooting attacks....
I agree the rules say you cannot choose a unit that has already fired this turn. That doesn't state that a shooting attack is one per unit.

Please explain why the rules say something different to you?

I'm not missing that at all.

After reading more into it, however, each model fires a shooting attack as part of a unit.
So each model makes a shooting attack. I have permission to roll a d6 for every weapon in range for my shooting attack.
Why are you forbidding me from rolling 1 of those d6?

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

 reds8n wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
1 is at least one. I'm sorry English allows for subjectivity of meaning but you're really desperate to call me a liar. Stop. I've asked repeatedly for you et al to stop and I'd appreciate we debate the issue and not the man.

Indeed.


It's toy soldiers not a court of law.

*Initiates slow clap*

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

A model fires. That firing is resolved as a shooting attack.
I think that's the most correct way to put it.

For vehicles it's slightly different - each weapon is a single shooting attack.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

How is it that his opinion is wrong?

Your the one who hasn't backed up anything with rules.

Ok. So a shooting attack is firing a weapon, yes a vehicle gets a few attacks etc. So you'd agree a normal shooting attack for a MC is not firing two weapons? A MC gets two normal shooting attacks in the shooting phase?

So the shooting attack for most models is 1 dice unless their weapon says they have shots? Y/N

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

Dude, we are on page 4. You have yet to make a solid argument for your cause and refuse to acknowledge the other side of the debate.

Why don't you take a day to reorganize your side of the discussion and continue this tomorrow? You aren’t going to win anyone over at this point in time and you have yet to concede an inch. At this point, both sides might as well be screaming at a wall.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok. So a shooting attack is firing a weapon, yes a vehicle gets a few attacks etc. So you'd agree a normal shooting attack for a MC is not firing two weapons? A MC gets two normal shooting attacks in the shooting phase?

So the shooting attack for most models is 1 dice unless their weapon says they have shots? Y/N

No. Page 51 tells you exactly how many weapons you can shoot, and the weapons profile tells you how many shots. Those are printed rules, not assertions like the ones you continue to make.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok. So a shooting attack is firing a weapon, yes a vehicle gets a few attacks etc. So you'd agree a normal shooting attack for a MC is not firing two weapons? A MC gets two normal shooting attacks in the shooting phase?

No, I would not agree to that - there is nothing stating that. Ever.
So far the only reference I can see to a model having multiple shooting attacks is vehicles.