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In my 2000 point BT:CT armylist, I want to make space for Centurion Devastators.


I could remove a scoring 5 man sniper scout squad (60), a Land Speeder Storm carrying scoring 5 cc-armed scouts (100), and a Whirlwind (65).

That leaves me with 225 points; squeezing another 25 points out from the rest of my armylist shouldnt be too much of a hassle.

My question is - do 3 Grav Amp Cents do better than the above units together?

Well, the Centurions will do their job very well. The problem is that you're taking out units that do completely different jobs in order to fit them in.

Sniper Scouts: kill high toughness models, hold objectives
Storm Scouts: harrassment, hold objectives
Whirlwind: kill hordes
Centurions: Kill things that have good armor saves

It's hard to say; it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Well Centurion Devs do MC killing far more effecient than Sniper Scouts do; and while the Whirlwind is great, my local meta isnt really teeming with GEQ armies and I had simply chosen it as a cheap-as-chips pie plate thrower (besides, the Cents still have 3 Hurricane Bolters, although of course at shorter range)

So the only real issue here is that I lose 2 scoring units, one of them a late game objective grabber - I wasnt planning on keeping the Storm Speeder in LoS of the enemy for most of the game anyways, they're just there to make for an unclaimed objective with their incredible movement speed, or help out a collapsing flank if desperate measures are required.

Fair enough. If you drop two scoring units, how many do you have left? That's really the biggest sticking point as far as I can see.

I still got 3 left (10 man Crusader squad aboard LRC, 9 man Crusader squad aboard drop pod and 5 man plas/plas squad that stays back and camps on an objective). I also got 5 hammernators, 5 tactical terminators, a typhoon LS, a Predator Annihilator and a Vindicator in my armylist

How are your Centurions keeping up with the rest of your fairly mobile army?

They are there to basically deny my deployment zone to any enemy deepstrikers, while the majority of my army focuses on reaching my opponent's deployment zone and wrest control of his objectives in your typical Templar in-your-face fashion.

Basically Vindie, Pred, plas/plas tac squad and centurion devs stay behind to guard home objectives, prevent or harass enemy deep strikers, shoot at anything in LoS upto and including the centre of the table or, should things go horribly wrong at the front, basically be Plan B of "staying alive" until the rest of the game.

I feel like their points price tag is pretty steep to keep the unit in a defensive position. At that cost I want to know they'll be getting shots in rather than it being a possibility.

With grav cannons they've effectively got a 30" range (24"+6" move) and they'll most likely be shooting at the biggest model on the table (or one of em. Riptide, wraithknight, LandRaider etc)

BaalSNAFU wrote:
With grav cannons they've effectively got a 30" range (24"+6" move) and they'll most likely be shooting at the biggest model on the table (or one of em. Riptide, wraithknight, LandRaider etc)

Riptide has range on the Devs, Wraithknight has range depending on loadout but trumps them for maneuverability and can easily play keep-away until he wants to charge them and kill them. The Land Raider is a Land Raider, so you could shoot it with them... doesn't seem like the best use, but yeah. I know their effective rand, but they're slow. Templars want to punch things. Vehicles are moving 12'' first turn most likely, if not 18''. Cents are stuck at 6'' without a transport.

Well in which case I would either commit to a transport, or better yet for an assaulty army, get 2 squads of grav bikers for the price of the Cents. Much more maneuverable with just as many shots (twice a game with the sarges combi). The rest of the game you are sacrificing 3 grav shots a turn for the maneuverability.

any marine list of 1750 or higher should probably just dedicate 500 points towards grav cents unless you have a specific theme or plan otherwise.


3 grav cents and LRR/w mm 500 pts even.

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Well in which case I would either commit to a transport, or better yet for an assaulty army, get 2 squads of grav bikers for the price of the Cents. Much more maneuverable with just as many shots (twice a game with the sarges combi). The rest of the game you are sacrificing 3 grav shots a turn for the maneuverability.

That is a great suggestion, but isn't moving 12" and firing 18" the same as moving 6" and firing 24"? Turn one you would reach 30", turn two 60" etc...so this one is a tie

2x 3 Bikers with 2 Grav Guns + Sarge with Combi Grav = 206 points

3 Centurion Devastators with Gravcannons & Grav Amps = 250 points

bikers are cheaper by almost 50 points, so this one goes to the bikers.

both selections have the same amount of wounds (6) and same toughness (5), so its a tie

the cents have 2+ armor save, but the bikers have 3+/5++ if they move. I'd call this also a tie, as there are more AP3 weapons out there than AP2.

bikers have more maneuverability in regard to LoS, and also work better in a BT army than the rather sluggish Cents, so Bikers win there.

However Grav Cents can re-roll wounds, lets not forget that. They also have 3 more TL-Bolter shots coming from the additional Hurricane Bolter over the Bikers' 6 TL-Bolters. And finally, they can fire both while the bikers can only fire either grav or bolt weaponry. Centurions clearly have the edge in terms of firepower, so this round goes to the Cents.

Lastly, the Bikers occupy 2 Force Org slots while the Cents occupy 1, but FA isnt nearly as crowded as HS, so I'll call this a tie, i.e. its a good thing as it frees up HS space while still giving you that kind of killing power.

Bikers can target 2 different units, but for 10 points the Cents can do the same with an Omniscope, so tie once more.

Cents can all be taken out easier because they are 1 target, while bikers are essentially 2 different targets, so bikers win here.


8: 6 for bikers

Actually I'd throw a 4th biker in each squad so the first casualty you suffer isn't somebody imortant if played properly. I'd say it all depends on your playstyle. If you like shooting/gunline/counterpunching then go with the cents. If you're an agressive player with a matching army (BT in this case) go with the bikers.

After one turn of movement the bikers have superior range to the Centurions.

T1 - Cents move 6'' and fire 24'' = 30'' range.
T1 - Bikes move 12'' and fire 18'' = 30'' range.

T2 Cents move another 6'' and fire 24'' = 12'' moved + 24'' range = 36'' effective range.
T2 Bikes move another 12'' and fire 18'' = 24'' moved + 18'' range = 42'' effective range.

My question for you in regard to the Cents, are you looking to take them only for the grav cannons, or are you looking at them for the statline/just think the models are cool?

With an army that seems to be as mobile as yours, i might consider swapping out the gravcannons for Lascannons instead. While you might not have the weight of fire you would have otherwise, you do have a larger threat range if they are going to be without transport.

I still think dropping them from a Raven is the #1 best deployment model. Plus you get the dakka from the Raven and with grav cents, you are doing a dakka list. Yeah, you can't buff them on that turn, but they ARE BS 4. We're all spoiled by prescience. Prescience benefits BS 4 less than other lower BS stats.

 Sir Arun wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:
Well in which case I would either commit to a transport, or better yet for an assaulty army, get 2 squads of grav bikers for the price of the Cents. Much more maneuverable with just as many shots (twice a game with the sarges combi). The rest of the game you are sacrificing 3 grav shots a turn for the maneuverability.

That is a great suggestion, but isn't moving 12" and firing 18" the same as moving 6" and firing 24"? Turn one you would reach 30", turn two 60" etc...so this one is a tie

2x 3 Bikers with 2 Grav Guns + Sarge with Combi Grav = 206 points

3 Centurion Devastators with Gravcannons & Grav Amps = 250 points

bikers are cheaper by almost 50 points, so this one goes to the bikers.

both selections have the same amount of wounds (6) and same toughness (5), so its a tie

the cents have 2+ armor save, but the bikers have 3+/5++ if they move. I'd call this also a tie, as there are more AP3 weapons out there than AP2.

bikers have more maneuverability in regard to LoS, and also work better in a BT army than the rather sluggish Cents, so Bikers win there.

However Grav Cents can re-roll wounds, lets not forget that. They also have 3 more TL-Bolter shots coming from the additional Hurricane Bolter over the Bikers' 6 TL-Bolters. And finally, they can fire both while the bikers can only fire either grav or bolt weaponry. Centurions clearly have the edge in terms of firepower, so this round goes to the Cents.

Lastly, the Bikers occupy 2 Force Org slots while the Cents occupy 1, but FA isnt nearly as crowded as HS, so I'll call this a tie, i.e. its a good thing as it frees up HS space while still giving you that kind of killing power.

Bikers can target 2 different units, but for 10 points the Cents can do the same with an Omniscope, so tie once more.

Cents can all be taken out easier because they are 1 target, while bikers are essentially 2 different targets, so bikers win here.


8: 6 for bikers

As someone whom has actually run both Cents and Bikers in a competitive setting, I know you're forgetting several key advantages of Cents.

Wound Allocation Tricks - When Cents start taking wounds, you can rotate them to the back, and rotate undamaged Cents forward. Not as good as previous editions, but still useful and something I do almost every game.

Missile Launchers - Cents can have Missile Launchers, for dirt cheap. Seriously, a unit of Missile Launcher Devastators (consider an okay unit by many) can be fielded with SnP inside of a Cent unit for 40 points. This gives a big range advantage the Bikers can't replicate, at all.

Force Multipliers - Cents benefit more from force multipliers - Divination, Tau Commanders, whatever. This is a pretty big deal if you have these force multipliers and can fit them in your list. Also, the Cent buffs (Split Fire, Night Vision, and S&P) work on attached characters.

2+ Armor Save - It matters a heck of a lot more in assault. There is much, much less AP 2 in assault than AP 3 these days. There are a surprising number of squads that you can tie up with Cents and eventually beat thanks to S5 attacks and 2+ armor.

And for the Bikers - can fire Overwatch.

Ricter wrote:
2+ Armor Save - It matters a heck of a lot more in assault. There is much, much less AP 2 in assault than AP 3 these days. There are a surprising number of squads that you can tie up with Cents and eventually beat thanks to S5 attacks and 2+ armor.

You can't be serious? Centurion Devs absolutely, positively SUCK in close combat. If they get into cc its game over for them, because a 250 point unit dishing out THREE S5 AP- attacks in close combat is the biggest joke in the entire Warhammer 40,000 meta. Plus they dont get to fire their Grav Cannon volleys.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Ricter wrote:
2+ Armor Save - It matters a heck of a lot more in assault. There is much, much less AP 2 in assault than AP 3 these days. There are a surprising number of squads that you can tie up with Cents and eventually beat thanks to S5 attacks and 2+ armor.

You can't be serious? Centurion Devs absolutely, positively SUCK in close combat. If they get into cc its game over for them, because a 250 point unit dishing out THREE S5 AP- attacks in close combat is the biggest joke in the entire Warhammer 40,000 meta. Plus they dont get to fire their Grav Cannon volleys.

Ditto. The fact that cents can be countered by ripper swarms kinda says something. I cant think of a marine, or hell, any imperial unit more perfect for tar-pitting. Don't get me wrong, I've taken down several terminator squads, meganob squads, and even a full carnifex brood in a single round of shooting from grav/missile cents. They definitely have their place, and they own it. However just not in an offensive/aggressive army like BT.

Yeah, figures I expect them to do a great job in static gunline armies, where part of your strategy is expecting the enemy to come at you (instead of the other way round). With BTs, Grav Gun bikers flanking the main Land Raider / deep strike advance gives us the Grav weapon power we need without worring about having fallen behind the rest of our force.

It also doesnt help if your own guys up front will end up blocking LoS of your Grav Cents lol

This thread saved me £50.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Ricter wrote:
2+ Armor Save - It matters a heck of a lot more in assault. There is much, much less AP 2 in assault than AP 3 these days. There are a surprising number of squads that you can tie up with Cents and eventually beat thanks to S5 attacks and 2+ armor.

You can't be serious? Centurion Devs absolutely, positively SUCK in close combat. If they get into cc its game over for them, because a 250 point unit dishing out THREE S5 AP- attacks in close combat is the biggest joke in the entire Warhammer 40,000 meta. Plus they dont get to fire their Grav Cannon volleys.

I am quite serious. I'm not saying that you should aggressively assault everything you can. But, unlike most most other heavy shooting units, they don't crumple under assault, either. Paired with an assaulty character (say, a White Scars Chapter Master with all the shiny bits) that can challenge out most AP 2 weaponry characters means they're generally nigh-unkillable in assault. Considering the general tactic of removing shooty units is "assault them", I'd say being nigh-unkillable in assault is a pretty noticeable advantage. Over the course of the LVO, the only unit that was literally able to cause a single wound on my Centurions in assault was a Paladinstar with Draigo that had shot my Chapter Master down before assaulting.

As it's easy enough to get them a character with Hit & Run, too, the tied up argument is simply uninformed or unimaginative, at best.

Has anyone mentioned Tiggy with centurions yet? Quite the multiplier and good way to get invul save. While it is quite the expensive unit they become a most kill unit and until they are dead your opponent isn't focusing on the other units you have firing at him. but ya if you are locked in assault you are hard pressed to get out of their without help. A great unit for sure and can win games at times. Just depends on the match up and how you place them. I like them, to each their own.

Being somewhat experienced in the use of grav cents the best way to use em is fully supported by Loth and a Farsight Enclave star.

That said, playing BT a cheaper and possibly more effective option is the Bastion with Escape Hatch.

Pop it in the edge of your dep zone, and control the entire board with Escape Hatch placement.