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So I yesterday got to play 1000point game against some 'nids. I fielded my only army, which consists about 99,5% of DW Termies.
Boy, that was ugly. In the end, it was rather closewise in Victory points, but I got tabled at the end of turn 5. Some bad decision making definately helped there, as did a small table (only had half size) but I find asking myself the question:
How do termies deal with some of those big MC's that want to get to melee?
Once they get there, it's pretty lopsided. Unwieldy makes me strike last and the inherent AP2 of the MC's together with high strength attacks puts quite the hurt on termies. While TH/SS helps, it opens me up to being swarmed by various gaunts (and jeez, that tyranid thing proceeded to birth an extra 120 points of gaunts on the table.... an extra 30 wounds to chew through, brutal at 1k points).
Guess my best bet is to field some long range, high strength weaponry like CML's and maybe PC's with as many hammers as I can spare and hope to kill something before they inevitably get to assault (feth that Move Through Cover!). But chewing through 4-6 wounds multiple times on a short table edge is not that likely...

I'd seperate out your anti-infantry and anti-mc, as you've discovered they can't do both. At 1000pts it's difficult to fit it all in too.

Belial
2x 5 Terminators w/ 4(5)x TH/SS, CML
2x Whirlwinds
is 860pts, maybe a couple of scout squads to fill up the rest of the points ?

If you're running pure Terminators probably the best you can do is Storm Bolters and CML/AC, split-fire out the Heavy to shoot at MCs, and keep back pedlalling !

if you play death wing you need to get some deathwing knights, take it from me first hand that smite attack will end your MC problems really quickly, str 10 ap 1 and you get to use your normal attack profile and initiative, only down side is one use only but still definatly worth taking. Also man there is no real way to deal with MCs with vanilla termies honestly. one terminator squad and one deathwing knight squad per dark angel army is a good amount, you need the likes of devastaors and heavy dreadnoughts ( lascannon, ML) in your life man.

Unfortunately MC with the AP2 pretty much decides how a melee will go with Termies: MC will go first normally and it is an uphill battle from there = don't do it.

High strength shooting (or things that ignore toughness) is the only good means of dealing with them. Target priority #1 for my snipers and the fancy scout HB is the main means for a marine to kill them.

I feel your pain...

though i have once caved in a eldar wraithknights knee caps with my termies power fists, due to his very bad rolling and my immaculate 5+ invo saves, i would not recomend it, was a pure fluke.

1.) Cyclone missile launchers. Slap them on every unit that has access to them. I understand you're using models you own, so proxy if necessary.
2.) Deathwing Knights - again, proxy if you have to but they'll dissuade those trygons and carnifexes from pursuing assault when you can trigger their Smite mode.
3.) Distance - don't close the gap too quickly - give yourself some time to shoot down the horde.
4.) Target Priority - Synapse is critical, Tervigons should have a HUGE target painted on their shells. Once you pop a tervigon you cripple (sometimes outright destroy) all nearby termagant units and leave them quaking in their hooves. Ld6 is a hard morale check to take.
5.) Scoring units - If you can hold 1 objective to your enemy's zero, you win. Simple, right? Take a unit or two of scouts, to outflank and nab those outlying objectives (the ones you placed at the start of the game with this trick in mind, of course). Then kill or contest all the troops on the tyranid side as best you can.
6.) Scoring units. No, this isn't redundant - when given a choice of targets, kill units that score FIRST. you'll take losses in return no matter which option you choose, but if you take away the enemy's scoring potential you'll stand a much higher chance of winning the game.
7.) Plasma, Grav, and Melta. they're worth taking on units that can. Take them.
8.) Typhoon Speeders - see the cyclone missile launcher note above. Take them if you can, they're worth it.


Good luck!

Some good advice guys, thank you.
It was my very first match vs 'nids (and like my.. 7th in total or something in that viscinity) so the obvious power of these things wasn't as obvious to me as it should be

I've since revised my small list (using the models I actually own, not a big fan of proxying) and came up with this:



*************** 1 HQ ***************

Belial
- Sword of Silence/SB
- 190 pts

*************** 1 Elite ***************

5 Deathwing Knights
- - - > 235 pts


*************** 3 Standard ***************

5 Deathwing-Terminators
- 1 x CML
- - - > 245 Punkte

5 Deathwing-Terminators
- 1 x AssCan
- - - > 240 Punkte

Taq Squad
5 Space Marines
- LC
- - - > 90 pts

Puts me right at 1k.
Should give me a better shot than my old list. HF are nice if you can take out 10 Gaunts, but I erroneously thought getting swamped in dice kills more termies. Experience forms the player, I'd wager. New strategy is to DS just in Weapon Range and let them come at me, picking out the MC's first and kill the first multiwound creature that closes the distance. Might buckle and get me a Sniper Scout Squad. My opponent fielded some +2 cover thingy, that was nasty too... and the zoanthropes... and that birthy thing... and the Swarmlord with its Guards... aw hell, so many tricky things to deal with

Hide in cover. While Tyranids got a few more options for grenades in the new codex, many MCs still don't have them. This will let you strike simultaneous with your power fists - and they don't have Invuls (maybe FNP if they roll well).

Bollocks.
That rule is something we should have been considering...
Many of these things had Move Through Cover, but that doesn't affect their initiative. Duh. So if I sit in difficult terrain, the things will always strike at I1.

Belial is a pretty decent MC fighter, so long as he is swinging first. Ap3 on a fleshbane weapon means you should stick a few wounds. Great for finishing off an MC.

Bolters tickle most MC's, but the CML and assault cannon are threats. Knights will stomp an MC into paste, and should easily take a beating back with the 3+ shields. Use your bolters to deal with hordes(each other heavy weapon helps). Heavy flamer helps stop a charge, but unless your enemy can rend, you will hold up fine in combat. The problem will be getting stuck there.

Not sure you need a lascannon on the tac squad. A missile launcher is a bit more versatile, will still pop T6 and 3+ saves, and costs less.

True. That's one TH/SS more that can, hopyfully, tank some MC hits and keep it at I1 in the 2nd round of combat.

I'd worry more about him bringing a carnifex brood with twin-linked devourers or worse, a couple of flyrants.

3 carinfexes = 36 shots = 27 hits = 22.5 wounds = 3.75 dead terminators per round
2 flyrants = 24 shots = 21 hits = 17.7 wounds = 2.96 dead terminators per round

And then they still get to charge you after the shooting!

Bringing nothing but terminators against a well constructed Tyranid list is pretty bad idea. Unless you are Grey Knights or you bring a Land Raider to keep you safe till you charge (and have TH/SS).

You may want to consider a Banner. The DW Banner can increase your attacks, which definitely helps. The Fortitude Banner can increase your survivability.

Maybe find room for a TDA Libby. Divination and a force weapon will definitely help in combat against MCs.

Vs MCs, TH/SS and knights are the way to go. As an above poster said, use cover against nids (and also daemons) when you can, and avoid getting your TH/SS squads getting drowned in gants.

Knights have a few advantages vs nids. They have the 3++ save to let them go toe to toe with the gribblies, and also the toughness and I to offer more resistance to a blob, not to mention a better weapon skill and HoW goodness.
Vs some MCs they will even strike first, so that brood of 3 carnifexes charging you have a good likelihood of being pasted before they get to attack.

To the saying use your bolters vs the hordes.....it doesn't work well.

The maths is against you, terminators are so expensive for what you get, that your firepower is comparatively small. 5 terminators costs 80 points more than 10 marines, and puts out the same firepower at 12+, and only half the firepower at ranges under 12.

Bolters are better than your PFs when going against a gant blob, but it still will not be in your favour. Really a DW army is hard pressed when faced with a horde list, and besides knights and a HF or CML using blasts, there's no go to unit to save you.

Remember that your regular termies also have inner circle so if in base to base with the knights they will also get +1 toughness. That might help to lower some casualties as they come at you. don't forget that twin linked when you deep strike bit that also helps allot but something I always forget (I just run one squad of DW though) that and they can split fire so heavy weapons at one target and stormbolters at another. It's going to be a very uphill battle so those little things might make the difference you need + some luck =).

If they start bringing that kind of stuff, I guess its not a friendly lil game anymore. If I literally get wiped in 2 turns no matter what I do, I guess I'll pass the game
Banners and LR's are great, but consider we're still at a 1000pt limit.
2 Squads of Termies and the HQ alone cost about 700 pts, without any weapons. Thats the kind of List I play at 1750 and up, works way better.
A TDA Libby won't help me out too much honstely, he might just as fast go *squish*... Unless I stick him with the DWK. Hm. That might be an idea, but he wouldn't need that TDA then. Precision Shots aren't that common and even then there'S LOS.

With the revised list, your strategic and tactical advice I feel I fare a way better chance than before. I can report on wednesday

The two lists I'd consider for this are:

HQ
Belial - TH/SS

ELITES
7x Deathwing knights

TROOPS
5x Deathwing Terminators - 1x assault cannon
5x Deathwing Terminators - 1x assault cannon

and:

On topic, here's my 1000 point Deathwing list:
Belial

Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC
Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC

Deathwing Squad (x5) - CML, 1CF
Deathwing Squad (x5) - CML, 1CF

List 1 is good better vs hordes and carnifex blobs, list 2 is better vs the inevitable Flyrants and their str 6 firepower.

I'm uninformed -- is belial EW?

No. Best you can do for survival is give him the shield and put him next to 2 knights for T5 2/3++, Still goes squish if a smash attack gets through though.

Which is why you hope he doesn't declare a challenge and your LOS work. The 2+ wound on the Sword with AP3 will whittle down a MC,

I would really think about adding a Whirlwind....they are NEVER bad.

True, I just don't have one (though I COULD see proxing a razorback for a Whirly as not tooo bad...)

 Thairne wrote:
True, I just don't have one (though I COULD see proxing a razorback for a Whirly as not tooo bad...)

Actually a flameback might not be to terrible as some extra close horde control. Have not run numbers on that though. Also the Assault Cannon Razor is not bad for dealing with MC's either.