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So I've been tooling with a Black Templars (I know, not the best chapter tactics, but I've played them since they were own codex) list for local tourneys and after settling on what I thought was a fairly decent one I realized I didn't have any anti-air in there. I do have a three man grav-centurion squad however, who I have an allied DA libby attached to. I feel like with prescience on that squad there's a pretty decent chance I can bring a flyer down on weight of fire alone, especially with re-rolls to hit and penetration rolls. My buddy is saying that I absolutely NEED anti air and should find a way to shoe horn an aegis defense line with quad gun in. Any thoughts on what would be better?

Could be potentially great AA actually, since you don't roll to penetrate (technically) with grav anyway ..

15 shots from a unit of 3 grav centurions, hitting on 6's (with re-rolls to hit) gives you a decent chance to at least score a few hits. Of course then you have to roll 6's to cause any damage (1 hull point, although the immobilized resulting in locked velocity is not a bad result now that I'm thinking about it).

The drawback is the short-ish range I think.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And DO you "need" anti-air? Probably a good idea to have it, but what you use for AA depends on your list as a whole and what you'll be up against more than just a generic "need" for AA.

Well. Having a reroll while needing a "6" is VERY close to needing a "5" on one throw. So your grav cents are effectively BS 2 and get about 30% vehicle effects through.

In totality, you'll get about .30 * .30 = .09 or 9% efficacy per shot.

Yeah, I thought about the range too, but more often than not most flyers come zooming straight at your line anyways, so my edge of the board should be fairly well protected as long as I place them well (which I'm not always the best at, unfortunately).

Hmm, Martel, that's a solid point. Food for thought. I'm afraid I might be suffering from cool model syndrome since I'm one of the few people who think the centurions actually look pretty cool.

I've warmed up to them. That and the ability of grav cents to burn down many hard targets. I just don't think they are that good as AA. I've kind of quit worry so much about AA, though. Pretty much the only flier that matters is the Helldrake. Wave Serpents and Riptides vastly outnumber Helldrakes in my play area now.

having a reroll for a 6 is not close to being similar to needing a 5 to hit.

a 5 to hit is a 33% chance to hit.

a 6 to hit is a 16.6% chance to hit. Having a reroll on it increases the chance to hit by a percentage equal to the reroll chance, which is 16.6%. 16% + [16% of 16%] is about 20% chance to hit of a 6 rerolling a 6.

so 1 in 5 chance to hit versus a 1 in 3 chance to hit is a big difference.

for the cost and range they are probably the worst AA you could have for their affect.

You math is wrong.

Chance of rolling a "5" or "6" on one die: 2/6 = 33.3%

Chance of rolling a "6" on two throws: 1-(5/6*5/6) = 30.5%

It IS almost identical.

ooooohhh Math Burn!

Since the ADL setup was released its hard to find a more effective anti air, if the general opinion is right :p

You're looking at a 9.3% chance of getting Locked Velocity on a flyer with each shot out of an eighty-point Grav-Centurion, which means even if you somehow get your slow-ass expensive heavy weapon infantry within 12" of an enemy flyer you're looking at a 78%-ish chance of getting at least one hull point off of it for a two-hundred-and-fifty point squad.

A Hunter is going to outright kill a Stormraven from about 16% of shots, take a hull point off in 42% of further cases, and of the remaining 42% of possible cases in 33% of them it sticks around and takes another shot next turn. All for seventy points, and with two and a half times the maximum range of the Centurions.

A Stalker is going to pull an expected 1.2 hull points off a Stormraven per turn, that doubles if you're shooting something with AV10. Add to that increased utility while shooting things that aren't Flyers and the flexibility to split up its shots between two targets if you've got multiple things that need to be shot, plus 48" range, all for 75pts.

So yes, you can shoot flyers with a Devastator Centurion squad, but it's staggeringly expensive and horribly inefficient when compared to the units in the Codex that are actually good at killing flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elgrun wrote:
Since the ADL setup was released its hard to find a more effective anti air, if the general opinion is right :p

It was back before we started getting actual anti-air units in Codices; a Space Marine Stalker's got the exact same gun for 25pts cheaper, the Hunter is strictly better against higher-armour models, and that's not even going into the craziness that can come out of the Tau and Eldar Codices, not to mention using actual air-to-air flyers (the Nightwing, Crimson Hunter, punisher-cannon Vulture, Barracuda, Thunderbolt, Avenger, and Chaos Hell Blade), or the Guard rules for the AA Manticore variant and the Hydra, even arguably the Ork Flakkatrukk. The ADL is cool, but it's far from your only AA choice and far from the most effective/reliable.

Isnt the main reason the stalker/hunter is considered unusable is that it takes up a heavy support slot?

 Elgrun wrote:
Isnt the main reason the stalker/hunter is considered unusable is that it takes up a heavy support slot?

That and they lack interceptor

EDIT: Though I have seen the suggestion to reserve them and hope they come in after the enemy flyers do, which I'm not a real fan of for various reasons.

OP: do you have flyers of your own, or can you a storm talon/stormraven? I find STs to be effect in AA duties, and with its armament can strafe ground targets fairly well (Strafing run gives BS5 and pinning). its 125 with the 3 shot autocannon missiles, which may seem expensive, but can do 2 jobs fairly well based on armaments.

I would really relegate those expensive grav-centurions to AA duty, as it would be a waste of points to be their job, an ADL, SM AA tanks, or SM flyers are a much better value. THey are much better off fighting their intended targets: WS, MCs and MEQ-TEQ.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Since the ADL setup was released its hard to find a more effective anti air, if the general opinion is right :p

It was back before we started getting actual anti-air units in Codices; a Space Marine Stalker's got the exact same gun for 25pts cheaper, the Hunter is strictly better against higher-armour models, and that's not even going into the craziness that can come out of the Tau and Eldar Codices, not to mention using actual air-to-air flyers (the Nightwing, Crimson Hunter, punisher-cannon Vulture, Barracuda, Thunderbolt, Avenger, and Chaos Hell Blade), or the Guard rules for the AA Manticore variant and the Hydra, even arguably the Ork Flakkatrukk. The ADL is cool, but it's far from your only AA choice and far from the most effective/reliable.

I would take an ADL over a Stalker. the main reason being the AV12 isn't very durable, and it lacks interceptor, which is very good for AA/deep strike defense (esspecially with the commonality of DPs and the Ovesa/Farsight bomb), all in all its a watered down Quad gun mounted on a sightly up-armored rhino. It is actually bar the SM flyers and Hunter the most effective AA available period.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the last part, although i can honestly fit a Hunter in a HS slot (might give my TFC a bench or too).

 ace101 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Since the ADL setup was released its hard to find a more effective anti air, if the general opinion is right :p

It was back before we started getting actual anti-air units in Codices; a Space Marine Stalker's got the exact same gun for 25pts cheaper, the Hunter is strictly better against higher-armour models, and that's not even going into the craziness that can come out of the Tau and Eldar Codices, not to mention using actual air-to-air flyers (the Nightwing, Crimson Hunter, punisher-cannon Vulture, Barracuda, Thunderbolt, Avenger, and Chaos Hell Blade), or the Guard rules for the AA Manticore variant and the Hydra, even arguably the Ork Flakkatrukk. The ADL is cool, but it's far from your only AA choice and far from the most effective/reliable.

I would take an ADL over a Stalker. the main reason being the AV12 isn't very durable, and it lacks interceptor, which is very good for AA/deep strike defense (esspecially with the commonality of DPs and the Ovesa/Farsight bomb), all in all its a watered down Quad gun mounted on a sightly up-armored rhino. It is actually bar the SM flyers and Hunter the most effective AA available period.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the last part, although i can honestly fit a Hunter in a HS slot (might give my TFC a bench or too).

AV12 versus two T7 Wounds with a 3+ armour save? Not that different in the long run, seeing as most of the weapons that'll kill one easily will also kill the other easily (I keep a Vindicare Assassin around in my GK/Guard army specifically to drop the quad-gun before my flyers show up). I'll concede the point on Interceptor, but the ADL doesn't do high armour or multiple targets well seeing as you can only ever have one gun per detachment there. I'm not trying to dismiss it or insist that it's not a good choice, I'm pointing out that it's not the only choice and depending on the situation and the flyer you're shooting at something else may be better. The prime advantage of the Stalker is the split-fire trick, which is most useful if you're dealing with Dark Eldar or Ork Trukks or some other setup where you're dealing with a lot of light vehicles at the same time; it's also a good way to force grounding tests on several Flying Monstrous Creatures at once.

ETID: Also confused about where "watered down Quad gun" comes from seeing as they are literally identical excepting Interceptor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elgrun wrote:
Isnt the main reason the stalker/hunter is considered unusable is that it takes up a heavy support slot?

...Seeing as pretty much every good AA unit is in Heavy Support (barring a few planes in Fast Attack), I'm not sure how you're planning on killing planes with three HS slots loaded with non-AA units. One ADL is all well and good but then all the other guy has to do is pop a single model and you don't have any AA anymore.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ace101 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Since the ADL setup was released its hard to find a more effective anti air, if the general opinion is right :p

It was back before we started getting actual anti-air units in Codices; a Space Marine Stalker's got the exact same gun for 25pts cheaper, the Hunter is strictly better against higher-armour models, and that's not even going into the craziness that can come out of the Tau and Eldar Codices, not to mention using actual air-to-air flyers (the Nightwing, Crimson Hunter, punisher-cannon Vulture, Barracuda, Thunderbolt, Avenger, and Chaos Hell Blade), or the Guard rules for the AA Manticore variant and the Hydra, even arguably the Ork Flakkatrukk. The ADL is cool, but it's far from your only AA choice and far from the most effective/reliable.

I would take an ADL over a Stalker. the main reason being the AV12 isn't very durable, and it lacks interceptor, which is very good for AA/deep strike defense (esspecially with the commonality of DPs and the Ovesa/Farsight bomb), all in all its a watered down Quad gun mounted on a sightly up-armored rhino. It is actually bar the SM flyers and Hunter the most effective AA available period.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the last part, although i can honestly fit a Hunter in a HS slot (might give my TFC a bench or too).

AV12 versus two T7 Wounds with a 3+ armour save? Not that different in the long run, seeing as most of the weapons that'll kill one easily will also kill the other easily (I keep a Vindicare Assassin around in my GK/Guard army specifically to drop the quad-gun before my flyers show up). I'll concede the point on Interceptor, but the ADL doesn't do high armour or multiple targets well seeing as you can only ever have one gun per detachment there. I'm not trying to dismiss it or insist that it's not a good choice, I'm pointing out that it's not the only choice and depending on the situation and the flyer you're shooting at something else may be better. The prime advantage of the Stalker is the split-fire trick, which is most useful if you're dealing with Dark Eldar or Ork Trukks or some other setup where you're dealing with a lot of light vehicles at the same time; it's also a good way to force grounding tests on several Flying Monstrous Creatures at once.

ETID: Also confused about where "watered down Quad gun" comes from seeing as they are literally identical excepting Interceptor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elgrun wrote:
Isnt the main reason the stalker/hunter is considered unusable is that it takes up a heavy support slot?

...Seeing as pretty much every good AA unit is in Heavy Support (barring a few planes in Fast Attack), I'm not sure how you're planning on killing planes with three HS slots loaded with non-AA units. One ADL is all well and good but then all the other guy has to do is pop a single model and you don't have any AA anymore.

To be fair watered down is likely referring to the lack of interceptor.

Other options I've seen involve hitting another codex for allies that can handle aircraft without giving up precious TFC or grav cent slots (tau usually gets the nod here).

Of course, could always ally with yourself to get a 4th HS slot...

Or dare i say it..

"TWO" ADL set ups....

To return to the OP,
i use this exact setup with my cents, and in a word:
yes they can be used as anti-air and the odds are in your favor with all re-rolls.
It is just for emergencies though. It is generally a bad idea to target flyers and not something on the board.
Two games past, i used them to immoblilize a Stormraven ful of aasault termies, who of course had to deep strike, wait a turn to assault and of course in the end, had no impact in the game..

Stalker/Hunter tanks also don't give a 4+ cover save to a gunline.

Thanks for the input everyone. Just to clear some things up:

The unit of Centurions was not meant to be AA so much as if it would be serviceable enough to deal with the occasional flier. My local area doesn't see a lot of fliers, but there is the occasional hell turkey or storm raven and what not. I don't want to wade into a Hunter vs Stalker debate, more like is it better to find room for a ADL + Quad gun or if Grav cents can do the occasional heavy lifting. I'm still not sure either way but I'll probably try out a few test matches against my friends and see where they land. I'm leaning towards keeping them at the moment, but mostly because I'e spent a fair amount of time painting them and definitely want to see them on the table top, which is not the most tactically sound reason.

Oh, and I noticed someone saying they were only 12" in the comments earlier but just a reminder that they are 24" and with Slow and Purposeful they always shoot as though they haven't moved so don't suffer from the half range and lesser number in the salvo profile.

PS: Ace, I do have ST but I'm hesitant to use them since they're a little delicate and with only 2HP. I think I'd rather have a quad gun for the cost, but, again, I may run a few test lists to see how well they work.

confoo22 wrote:
PS: Ace, I do have ST but I'm hesitant to use them since they're a little delicate and with only 2HP. I think I'd rather have a quad gun for the cost, but, again, I may run a few test lists to see how well they work.

They may seem fragle, esspecially compared to helturkeys and stormravens, but for the point you pay it sure does give you a bang for your buck. The two main keys for it are Strafing Run and the fact that it's AC is turret mounted, meaning you have a good chance at taking on the previously mentioned flyers at lower price. The one knock against it is its FA meaning if you love bikes there won't be as much space for them unless you have a bike captain.

In light of your comment, sure the grav-cents do have the dakka to get hits on flyer & FMC, think it is a better bet to hit the FMC, since he has to take a GT and Grav-weapons are a hard counter to MCs.

 Elgrun wrote:
Or dare i say it..

"TWO" ADL set ups....

Please do tell. I can't think of a way to take 2 ADLs.
Stronghold Assault has fortification bundles, but I think you've got to take a bastion to take more than 1 ADL in that.
The WoM bunker gets the option of a quad-gun though.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Or dare i say it..

"TWO" ADL set ups....

Please do tell. I can't think of a way to take 2 ADLs.
Stronghold Assault has fortification bundles, but I think you've got to take a bastion to take more than 1 ADL in that.
The WoM bunker gets the option of a quad-gun though.

2000 points, 2 Force Org Charts, 2 Fortifications.

Boom goes the dynamite!

Chrysis wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:
Or dare i say it..

"TWO" ADL set ups....

Please do tell. I can't think of a way to take 2 ADLs.
Stronghold Assault has fortification bundles, but I think you've got to take a bastion to take more than 1 ADL in that.
The WoM bunker gets the option of a quad-gun though.

2000 points, 2 Force Org Charts, 2 Fortifications.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
even if you somehow get your slow-ass expensive heavy weapon infantry within 12" of an enemy flyer you're looking at a 78%-ish chance of getting at least one hull point off of it for a two-hundred-and-fifty point squad.

Grav cannons are 24" range and centurions are relentless due to S&P so they have a 30" threat range.

Chrysis wrote:
2000 points, 2 Force Org Charts, 2 Fortifications.

Doh. I don't ever see games that big, so forget that's an option.

I have fired my Dev Centurions on a dakkajet, altough I run two with grav-cannons and one with TL-lascannon and all three have missile launchers. I'd say they're semi effective at anti air.

a threat range of 30" (24" plus movement of 6") is pretty decent.

Rerolling to wound (or rather, to see if you glance) is pretty damn good, especially as you immobilize the flyer as well, meaning it can't dive or whatever it's called. setting it up for easier hits if you fire more stuff at it. with 3 missile launchers you also might get a hit-glance/pen in with one of those as well if you're lucky, but nothing to count on.

That being said I didn't bring the dakkajet down on the first turn of shooting, and that's somewhat a waste of 290 pts to not do much else than causing 2 glances and immobilizing a dakkajet (but on the scouring I wanted it dead!)

against FMC's they're pretty boss though (poor flying hive tyrants)

I honestly believe that Centurion's grav cannons are better shot at something else.
It depends on your lists and whatever you usually fight against, though.
As a Space Marine, if you don't have a list with lots of vehicles I would be scared only by the Heldrake and the Flying Circus (or even Fateweaver alone for all the bonuses that grants to a Daemons army). I think you can just ignore everything else and concentrate on your main goal.

If you do not want to take non-SM Allies your best bet is either a Storm Raven or the Aegis Defence Line with a Quadcannon.
However, it really depends on your list and whatever you are facing.

As a Chaos player, I often face SM players that are overconfident in their Storm Raven against my Heldrake(s).
Yes, Storm Raven weaponry is perfect for the anti-AA role, while the Heldrake seems to be just an anti-infantry unit.
However do never underestimate Heldrake's 5+ invulnerable save and its Daemonforge special rule (once per game, reroll to wound/penetrate for one turn).

My last game, as an example, was against a Blood Angels player that was too bold on exploding my drake. He positioned it in such a position that would allow me both to Vector Strike and use the flame at will. It ended up with the Multimelta causing a penetrating hit saved by the invulnerable save, the first missile missing, the second only dealing a glancing hit and the assault cannon (or whatever) not damaging anything.
On the following turn, I vector striked (rolled a 5, so 4 attacks rerolling to pen) and exploded it easily. Then flamed to death half of a TAC unit.

He did not like that
Just remember it and try, whenever you can, to force the opposing player to either vector strike or use the baleflamer.