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Ok, so i've been poking around Privateer Press and checking out models. Of the factions between Hordes/Warmachine (apparently they're compatible? someone explain that one if possible) i like the models from the Circle of Orboros best.

So i haven't bought any books, and don't really know anyone who plays but i'm in a major town and likely can arrange games if necessary. But i have no idea if the army/group is any good! I've tried finding some relevant bat reps, and it looks like they got some cool mechanics. But its really hard to tell from youtube the interior mechanics of the game and whether its balanced, whether the armies are fluffy and fun to play, etc.

I suppose i'm asking for an overview on the games and whats hot, whats not and what to avoid...

Help?

They're compatible because other than Warcasters/Warlocks and Warjacks/Warbeasts, they have the exact same rules.

Same game, couple different mechanics.

The game is very balanced. It is heavily skill based though, so expect to lose your first games unless you play equally new players.

All the factions are balanced.

Circle's playstyle is basically hit and run glass cannon type of tactics. Generally their beasts are fast, hit hard, but are fragile. They also have many many movement shenanigans. The Shifting Stones and their UA are basically a mandatory unit to have because of the stuff they do.

There are exceptions. The Circle Wold beasts are the opposite of the wolves. Very durable, slow, and don't hit as hard as the Wolves and Satyrs(mostly because Circle's main damage buff doesn't work on them)

The Circle battlebox is unfortunately rather crap. The Argus is probably one of the worst beasts in the game(the game is still balanced, there are a few stinkers though) and it comes with 2 of them.

Its still decent for learning the game but you'd want to quickly leave the Argii behind to pick up good beasts like the Gorax, Warpwolf Stalker, and maybe a Satyr.



Warmachine vs Hordes. Exact same rules except for how the leader(warlock/warcaster) interacts with their jacks/beasts.

Warcasters(Warmachine) generate an amount of Focus each turn(Focus Stat). They can use it to power their jacks, cast spells, and make attacks. Jacks can buy attacks, make charges, or boost their attacks by using the Focus their Caster gives them. Casters also gain armor for the Focus that sits on them.

Warbeasts(Hordes) generate Fury by buying or boosting attacks, making charges, or using their Animi up to a maximum determined by the beasts Fury stat. The Warlock then leeches this Fury from them at the beginning of the next turn up to a certain amount(the Fury stat of the Warlock). Any beasts that get left with Fury on them have to test or possibly you will lose control of them for a turn. Warlocks then can use the Fury to cast spells, make attacks, boost attacks, or transfer damage to their beasts. Beasts can basically act as meat shields for damage the warlock takes.

Aside from this, the games are exactly the same.

joe_deman wrote:
Ok, so i've been poking around Privateer Press and checking out models. Of the factions between Hordes/Warmachine (apparently they're compatible? someone explain that one if possible) i like the models from the Circle of Orboros best.

When I started playing back in like 2006 (crud I'm feeling old now) I picked Circle and kind of stuck with it. It's a good choice of a Faction, but I'll get into some more detail over it in the rest of the post. Welcome 'board.

joe_deman wrote:
So i haven't bought any books, and don't really know anyone who plays but i'm in a major town and likely can arrange games if necessary. But i have no idea if the army/group is any good! I've tried finding some relevant bat reps, and it looks like they got some cool mechanics. But its really hard to tell from youtube the interior mechanics of the game and whether its balanced, whether the armies are fluffy and fun to play, etc.

The game actually is kind of sold in part for its balance. While some things are generally liked more than others in list construction for any Faction (as with any asymmetrical game as i can gather) very few things are completely useless (just oftentimes some things are much more niche than others). And inter-Faction balance is extremely good. Even "power Factions" don't always win events, and a lot of what comes down to success in the game is individual player skill and utilizations of synergies within a Faction.

On other random things:

Compatibility
As noted already, Hordes and Warmachine share the same core mechanics. Warmachine was released first and utilizes the Focus magic system with warcasters and their warjacks. Hordes uses the Fury magic system for warlocks and warbeasts. Both games share the exact same core rules on all things really save how warlocks, warcasters, warbeasts and warjacks operate. There are even models that work accross both systems, and many warlocks and warcasters even share spells that are identical save what they are fueling it with. A way to look at the core rules is the base system and the magic system of that titled game, and rather than two games with compatable Factions, being one game with two groupings of Factions.

Fun Factor
I don't play a lot of wargames but something that seems brought up a bit already is balance and who even though there can be complaints, WM/H runs on a very "legalese" rules set. The game has a lot keywords, very specific timing, and rules interactions. There's also a bit where how probability works. Rather than a flat single die, most rules in the game are based on paired d6s, with occasional "boosts" which add another d6. Most rolls are comparing the total of 2d6+Stat versus another value. This creates a predictable, but bell curved dice mechanic, that also has a bit of influence factor to it with some things that can skew math to your favor. This adds up to the game having a good level of "control" to me, and allowing for more focus on positioning and on-the-table opportunity-seeking. Fun stuff.

Circle Orboros
The Circle as I noted is the Faction I picked. The thing to warn is that it is very mucha finesse Faction. Circle stuff tends to be fragile, but accurate, fast and pretty solidly hitting. There's a lot of emphasis on alpha strikes, surgically removing enemy models, control, and denial. Circle has some fairly good ability to create interesting angles and long distance melee strikes. It also is the magic hordes Faction, and has a lot of spells, control, and all that.

This all said, Circle has a steep learning curve. It's very easy to just miscalculate, mismanage or misplace something and lose it with Circle. So it can be frustrating as it's not a straight forward as other Factions can be, but it has a nice ability to create nice situations where you can set good traps against people, or piece-trade with a neat hit-and-run guerrilla feal I like a lot.

As noted, the battlebox that Circle has isn't great. That said, the alternate one that comes in the two-player set is actually not a bad way to learn Circle. The starter set more or less is the Circle box with one of the Argus swapped out for a Winter Argus (which I think is the Faction's third best light and makes the box much more interesting), a unit of Skinwalkers ($45 on its own) and the rulebook sans fluff. And you even get a Legion box that if you split with a friend or just keep about to try pretty much for free, which isn't shabby I find.

But start low points, work your way up if you are interested. Try the demos out locally and I would say despite folks complaints on long term, the battlebox for Circle (regular or alternate) does teach a lot of skills for Circle long term in a fashion that I think has a nice "training wheels" factor to it. Kaya is also one of the better warlocks to learn on until higher points levels, which is nice too.

And stuff.

I'd even say pKaya is really good even at higher point levels, I've used her in 100 points and done fine.

I do prefer eMorhana though for shenanigans. Though considering 4players in the area all use her I've started to revisit pKaya

So should i start with a box set then? Maybe core starter or should i pick and choose models to get to a reasonable starting point for points? BTW what is a reasonable starting point?

I'd try and find another player willing to split the 2 Player set.

Then get the Warpborn Alpha, a unit of Shifting Stones+UA, a warpwolf heavy kit, and a Gorax. Magnetize the heavy kit so you can swap between the 3 options.


This will get you a solid Circle army. Even though the Argus is mostly useless you'll still save a bunch by getting the set and everything else is pretty good. The Winter Argus's animus is one of the few ways to buff your Warlocks armor in Circle. His spray attack is also more universal than the regular Argus. There are plenty of models that can't be Paralyzed, but not nearly as many that are immune to being Frozen.

The Gorax is the reason the Argus is even worse than his stats would tell you. Same cost, way better melee ability, and perhaps the best Animus in the game.

The Warpwolf Stalker has the second best Animus next to the Gorax, plus he has reach, pathfinder(rare on living circle beasts), and good damage output like all Warpwolves. Plus he has built in anti-shooting ability.

Skinwalkers, with their UA, are a great heavy infantry unit. They have lighter stats compared to other heavy infantry, but unlike most they have double the attacks when they have the Alpha. They are best as a second wave unit, so sending in a unit like Blood Trackers ahead of them to clear a path is best.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd try and find another player willing to split the 2 Player set.

Then get the Warpborn Alpha, a unit of Shifting Stones+UA, a warpwolf heavy kit, and a Gorax. Magnetize the heavy kit so you can swap between the 3 options.


This will get you a solid Circle army. Even though the Argus is mostly useless you'll still save a bunch by getting the set and everything else is pretty good. The Winter Argus's animus is one of the few ways to buff your Warlocks armor in Circle. His spray attack is also more universal than the regular Argus. There are plenty of models that can't be Paralyzed, but not nearly as many that are immune to being Frozen.

The Gorax is the reason the Argus is even worse than his stats would tell you. Same cost, way better melee ability, and perhaps the best Animus in the game.

The Warpwolf Stalker has the second best Animus next to the Gorax, plus he has reach, pathfinder(rare on living circle beasts), and good damage output like all Warpwolves. Plus he has built in anti-shooting ability.

Skinwalkers, with their UA, are a great heavy infantry unit. They have lighter stats compared to other heavy infantry, but unlike most they have double the attacks when they have the Alpha. They are best as a second wave unit, so sending in a unit like Blood Trackers ahead of them to clear a path is best.

This Is a good start, I wound not completely ignore Argus though, Although Gorax is better I have found it useful, combined with the Gorax animus you can get a Mat 7 P+S 18 combo bite, not something to be ignored,

yukihyou wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd try and find another player willing to split the 2 Player set.

Then get the Warpborn Alpha, a unit of Shifting Stones+UA, a warpwolf heavy kit, and a Gorax. Magnetize the heavy kit so you can swap between the 3 options.


This will get you a solid Circle army. Even though the Argus is mostly useless you'll still save a bunch by getting the set and everything else is pretty good. The Winter Argus's animus is one of the few ways to buff your Warlocks armor in Circle. His spray attack is also more universal than the regular Argus. There are plenty of models that can't be Paralyzed, but not nearly as many that are immune to being Frozen.

The Gorax is the reason the Argus is even worse than his stats would tell you. Same cost, way better melee ability, and perhaps the best Animus in the game.

The Warpwolf Stalker has the second best Animus next to the Gorax, plus he has reach, pathfinder(rare on living circle beasts), and good damage output like all Warpwolves. Plus he has built in anti-shooting ability.

Skinwalkers, with their UA, are a great heavy infantry unit. They have lighter stats compared to other heavy infantry, but unlike most they have double the attacks when they have the Alpha. They are best as a second wave unit, so sending in a unit like Blood Trackers ahead of them to clear a path is best.

This Is a good start, I wound not completely ignore Argus though, Although Gorax is better I have found it useful, combined with the Gorax animus you can get a Mat 7 P+S 18 combo bite, not something to be ignored,

Also, when they spray DOES hit, it's fun times, especially if you get their 'Lock/'Caster.

So a friend of mine has told me she's willing to part with the following!


Circle battlebox
pKaya
Feral Warpwolf
Argus
Argus
eKaya
pKaya variant
Shifting Stones
Tharn Bloodtrackers
Lord of the feast


No idea about the units effectiveness, but seems like a solid start

Fairly good selection there. Lord of the feast is really good.

The only thing I'd purchase next is a gorax and if you want a warpwolf stalker.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd try and find another player willing to split the 2 Player set.

Then get the Warpborn Alpha, a unit of Shifting Stones+UA, a warpwolf heavy kit, and a Gorax. Magnetize the heavy kit so you can swap between the 3 options.


This will get you a solid Circle army. Even though the Argus is mostly useless you'll still save a bunch by getting the set and everything else is pretty good. The Winter Argus's animus is one of the few ways to buff your Warlocks armor in Circle. His spray attack is also more universal than the regular Argus. There are plenty of models that can't be Paralyzed, but not nearly as many that are immune to being Frozen.

The Gorax is the reason the Argus is even worse than his stats would tell you. Same cost, way better melee ability, and perhaps the best Animus in the game.

The Warpwolf Stalker has the second best Animus next to the Gorax, plus he has reach, pathfinder(rare on living circle beasts), and good damage output like all Warpwolves. Plus he has built in anti-shooting ability.

Skinwalkers, with their UA, are a great heavy infantry unit. They have lighter stats compared to other heavy infantry, but unlike most they have double the attacks when they have the Alpha. They are best as a second wave unit, so sending in a unit like Blood Trackers ahead of them to clear a path is best.

This is almost exactly what I did with my Circle two player box. About the only different things I did was to get Kromac at first. Then shortly after got eMorvhana and am working on building a unit of Wolves.

I especially second the warpwolf kit and gorax. Stone are good, I'm just still trying to figure out how best to use them for me.

the stones are fascinating. what do they do exactly? they obviously buff in some fashion or another....

Well, they can do a few things.

1) Teleport one of your models 8". It has to forfeit movement after the teleport but its quite a useful tool. There is a saying. "Circle has light artillery, they're called Stones and they shoot Warpwolves!"

2) they can take away Fury before your Warlock leeches. This means you can run your beasts a little hotter.

3) They can heal things.


Their UA is basically mandatory. He increases the distance they can spread out(meaning their teleport area is bigger) and he gives them stealth. Which is important when you are a def 5 model with only 5 boxes.

Most circle players use 2 units, one with the UA. And only because they can only have 1 UA at a time due to FA restrictions.

You can get into double teleportation trickery and sling a wolf up to 20" from where it began.

god damn. even eldar aren't that tricky!


... well, ya they are. but screw GW. i'm gonna be a druid!

I've seen a Stalker port 20" across the map and then Warpath another 3" to kill the caster on turn 3. That is 25" of non-linear threat that cares not for what is between it and the target. The lolzy thing is that the Stalker could potentially run away after doing this(his measly base speed)

Circle is the king of "Gotcha!"

Which is really unfortunate. Half the time when I win as Circle I feel like I robbed my opponent of a good game.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Which is really unfortunate. Half the time when I win as Circle I feel like I robbed my opponent of a good game.

I don't think so. It's just our Niche. Trolls have their do not die, khador have some lockdown and arm. Not to mention how crazy Legion are with ignoring terrain.

I'm interested what Celephax will have.

Cephalax are going to have a lot of control over their opponent's models. I expect Influence and spells like it.

This is all fantastic advice, I just want to chime and say that you should start with lower point games. Start with battle box matches and 15 pt games to get the hang of the rules. Jumping in at 50 pts is asking for frustration.

oh ya no i expect to do a few demos before i buy models regardless of how nice some of them are. I'm not sure what a good low points aim should be, but i'll start there