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An opponent I recently went up against didn't agree with me that deathray could be used against your own units.

The rule states that any point can be nominated on the table, not a unit, so the way I interpret it is that the death ray can be used to hit any model even if it's your own or in combat.

We rolled a dice and it came up his, so I didn't get to do it.

I had placed 10 lychguard in a straight line, I then brought in a doomscythe and death rayed them. 7 of them saved their invulnerables, so I could then redirect the shots at an enemy within 6 inches.

I've also done this before by placing lychgard 1inch away from an enemy unit and then particle whipping the enemy unit with coverage over the lychgard so I can gain more hits from the weapon.

sonicaucie wrote:
An opponent I recently went up against didn't agree with me that deathray could be used against your own units.

The rule states that any point can be nominated on the table, not a unit, so the way I interpret it is that the death ray can be used to hit any model even if it's your own or in combat.

We rolled a dice and it came up his, so I didn't get to do it.

I had placed 10 lychguard in a straight line, I then brought in a doomscythe and death rayed them. 7 of them saved their invulnerables, so I could then redirect the shots at an enemy within 6 inches.

I've also done this before by placing lychgard 1inch away from an enemy unit and then particle whipping the enemy unit with coverage over the lychgard so I can gain more hits from the weapon.

The Death Ray version is fine, the Death Ray explicitly hits both friendly and enemy units, and is done without declaring a target.

The Particle Whip version is probably not fine, unless the blast scattered over your own models. You can't deliberately place the marker from a Blast Weapon over your own models.

Chrysis wrote:

sonicaucie wrote:
An opponent I recently went up against didn't agree with me that deathray could be used against your own units.

The rule states that any point can be nominated on the table, not a unit, so the way I interpret it is that the death ray can be used to hit any model even if it's your own or in combat.

We rolled a dice and it came up his, so I didn't get to do it.

I had placed 10 lychguard in a straight line, I then brought in a doomscythe and death rayed them. 7 of them saved their invulnerables, so I could then redirect the shots at an enemy within 6 inches.

I've also done this before by placing lychgard 1inch away from an enemy unit and then particle whipping the enemy unit with coverage over the lychgard so I can gain more hits from the weapon.

The Death Ray version is fine, the Death Ray explicitly hits both friendly and enemy units, and is done without declaring a target.

The Particle Whip version is probably not fine, unless the blast scattered over your own models. You can't deliberately place the marker from a Blast Weapon over your own models.

I don't place it over my own models. I move my lychguard into a tight group 1 inch away from the tightest group of models amongst the unit and particle whip over the closest enemy model to my lychgard.

Unless the rule states that you can't put a blast marker down that covers a friendly model?

Is the blast marker over one of your models when you place it on the target enemy? If so, the placement is illegal.

Chrysis wrote:
Is the blast marker over one of your models when you place it on the target enemy? If so, the placement is illegal.

Yes, it was. So, the death ray version is fine but the particle whip must scatter onto the lychgard.

I guess I need to apologise to someone.

At least, I can't find anything to prevent the Death Ray version. There's no FAQ (that I found) requiring the first model hit to be an enemy (ala Jaws), and it doesn't need to declare a target otherwise the permission to fire secondary weapons at any unit hit wouldn't work.

you cannot do it quite the way you are doing it.

as already pointed out the particle whip one is just illegal due to placement of the template, it can scatter onto the guard but cannot be intentionally placed.

when you are firing the deathray you still have to declare a target, you do not have permission when firing said weapon to ignore the normal operations of the shooting phase, as such you still have to declare a target for the shot, which obviously cannot be your own unit.

I will point out that you are under no obligations to hit more than a single model in the target unit with the deathray but you do need to at least cause a single hit, so you can still sort of do what you are doing but you will need to have at least caused a single hit on the target unit before you can then draw your line through your guard.

nutty_nutter wrote:when you are firing the deathray you still have to declare a target, you do not have permission when firing said weapon to ignore the normal operations of the shooting phase, as such you still have to declare a target for the shot, which obviously cannot be your own unit.

I will point out that you are under no obligations to hit more than a single model in the target unit with the deathray but you do need to at least cause a single hit, so you can still sort of do what you are doing but you will need to have at least caused a single hit on the target unit before you can then draw your line through your guard.

The target in the death-ray's case is 'a point on the table'. Most emphatically not 'a unit' (friendly, enemy, or otherwise).

There are other restrictions which come into play when firing the other weapons on the doomscythe, but targeting a unit is not something you have to do with the ray, and whomever informed you of such is in error.

Nutty_nutter,
It can be debated if you are even required to hit any models in the targeted unit when it comes to 'place anywhere on the table' markers, templates or other unusual method of To-Hit. This is because the restrictions that forces the target unit to be the center of the attack are found in the normal placement rules, something like 'place the marker over a model in the targeted unit' or similar. If one is over-writing the standard placement rules with something more advanced, I can not see anything that could be used to force said player to obey restrictions found within the original rule. Therefore it should be legal to simply declare a target and place the marker anywhere, by it's own unique placement rules that mention nothing about the targeted unit.

Maybe I am over-looking some third rule that is in play, so if you can quote me a page then please do so, I am always willing to review the rules and correct misconceptions I might have. Personally, I would never try this trick against an opponent because it reeks of 'That ******* guy' behavior, and I do have a few torrent based templates. Still, if I have something I could use to deny it being used against me then all the better. Not to say that I have seen it come up at all, one would simply declare the target they are going to place the marker over anyway, but the opening poster shows that it might be encountered at some point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Neorealistic,

Incorrect - The target is declared as part of Step 1 of the shooting sequence, independent of what weapons are being used in the attack aside from using them to 'check range.' If one does not have a targeted unit within range of any of the weapons, then one is not able to even nominate that unit for a shooting attack to begin with. This is not something that often comes up though, obviously you are going to have a unit in range if you plan to fire your weapons, but in light of the above trick it is very vital to the equation. Unless the target unit is within range of the weapon being fired, one simply can not fire that weapon.

Sorry, it is you that is incorrect in this case. You have the general procedure correct, but the Deathray specifically grants an exception to that by virtue of it's own idiosyncratic firing procedure.

to whit: "...To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range..."

I will review the shooting sequence a little more closely sometime tomorrow, as today is filled with work... Which I shouldn't be posting from but boredom demands it... and other things, but as far as I can recall at this point in time:
Selecting which weapons will fire occurs during the 'check range' stage, after you have nominated a target, so instructions telling us how to go about firing a weapon must occur after this point in the timeline.

No you are correct in that regard. what I am saying is the necron deathray modifies "...you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enerny unit you are targeting..."
to: "...you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the point on the battlefield you are targeting..."

In that case I will need to see some more Rule based support that the nominated point on the table becomes the 'target,' and not the original unit selected prior.

Because it would not function as written as a weapon otherwise, if for no other reason. The shooting attack made by the deathray is only directed between 2 discrete points on the table, it's not fired 'at' a specific unit. If it didn't supersede the 'Choose a Target' section of the shooting phase with it's own rules, there would be no way to resolve the attack.

I disagree, though I do admit this one weapon is a little more gray because it has a veritable maximum range.

The issue I have is the idea that a weapon without a dedicated range can not meet the requirements for targeting something within range. There are a few weapons out there without dedicated ranges, the most common is flame-throwers of some description which are simply range 'template.' Within those situations we have methods for determining what that weapons range really is, in the case of templates one can measure the length of the template and have an answer. Most people do this by simply using the template to see which units are within the range of said template. The same logic can be used here, it is possible to determine if a unit has the possibility of being hit by simply nominating the point closest to them and drawing the line from there.

The only issue in question is how far do you draw out the line but seeing we are looking at the maximum I would have to state that the maximum value the random veritable can have is the distance you measure to.

If that logic doesn't please anyone, I would still like to point out that the maximum range of this weapon can easily be calculated through simple math. The Rule in question should states that the original point on the table has to be within X inches of the firing model and that the line is a maximum of Y inches long. Therefore the maximum range is (Max Y)+X, as this weapon is incapable of ever hitting anything past that distance so that is clearly the maximum distance away it can fire. The fact the line might fall short when it comes to the attack itself isn't relevant, the possibility to miss your targets completely should always be present.

Now the alternative placement rules do allow one thing:
Though debatable, I do not see anything from a Rule as Written point of view that prevents one from ignoring the target one just nominated completely and drawing the line elsewhere.

Death Raying your own Lychguard seems possible, actually. Very smart, maybe a little cheesy (But then, Lychguard are a little underpowered anyway) but still very smart, and RAW legal.

Checked the rulebook and the Necron codex, Neorealist is right here.

Personally, I like the image it brings from a cinematographic point of view. The beam is literally skimming off the shields, which are positioned to get a better focus on the enemy. The entire process allows for inflicting more casualties but also puts the shield bearers into direct harms way, creating a very nice balance within the rules as well. If someone was to use this tactic against me I would be quite willing to see it in play as I find it very beautiful and very 'Tactical Genus' level thinking.

Fair enough. Answer me this then: The deathray is fired and due to some fairly contrived happenstance the line is drawn through models in a friendly unit 'and' 2 enemy ones. Which is the target of the shooting attack? Can the attack still be made?

The target would have to be nominated first, and it would have to be an enemy unit. So in this situation it would be best to nominate one of the two enemy units as the target just to keep things consistence. After that point it is completely irrelevant that it hits more then just the target, it even has no problem with the friendly unit hit because the rule allows the line to be drawn so. Personally, I don't see anything that states it even needs to hit the nominated target.

So lets expand your situation to include a third enemy unit within range that isn't even touched:
For all the Rules care that third enemy unit could of been the nominated target and the attack is still made.

So you are saying that the rules require you to pick a target, and then completely ignore it in favour of using the deathrays targeting rules instead of simply just starting with the latter rule as superseding the first one?

Interesting, but I guess in the end it amounts to the same thing.

As curious a turn of events as that is: Yes, that is what I personally believe.

From a Rules as Written point of view, no permission exists to just ignore the requirement to nominate a target at this step of the process because it occurs before the Special Rule comes into play. Think of it as a field in a database which is mandatory, the system requires that field to be filled and will not let one proceed until it is filled. While this is because the system expects other Rules to need this value for reference, it doesn't matter if the Rule we decide to use has no purpose for this information as it is still mandatory. One still fill it in because the system requests we do so, if for nothing more then to get it done with so we can proceed to the next step.

Now, I know a few people have an issue with the above but from a Rule as Written point of view I can not support the opposite.

If one has a Special Rule which doesn't reference that field at all, I see no grounds for us to require that field be honored in some way. Yet some people seem to want to selectively apply restrictions from other rules, particularly to the placement of templates, that are not found in the new rules. If you do a search through the system, and good luck I never got that thing to work right for me, you will find a thread discussing this very point in relation to the Torrent Special Rule. Within people are more then willing to let the Torrent be placed by it's own unique rules but still demand it cover as many models in the target unit as possible, does not touch a friendly model, and follows other restrictions except the 'touch the base of the firing model.' They use the argument that these rules can be obeyed without conflict, ironically without realizing one can still place a Torrent template in a way that touches the base of the firing model as well so that restriction is also 'compatible.' I have yet to see why restriction X and Y are followed but Z is not, when the new instructions simply tell us to do P instead.

Of course if I am wrong and there is a Global Rule which states that an attack must hit, or have the possibility to hit, the targeted unit then I would gladly accept the page number.

I would like to point out that per the death ray rules, any other shooting must be at one of the units hit by the death ray. Since you don't know which units are hit, you would have to fire the death ray before nominating a target.

HappyJew,

Really?
That is very unusual to say the least, but there we go: For this particular weapon you have permission to fire it before nominating a target and that trumps default rules every time.

Does it say anything about the other weapons not being able to shoot at friendly units hit?

JinxDragon wrote:
As curious a turn of events as that is: Yes, that is what I personally believe.

From a Rules as Written point of view, no permission exists to just ignore the requirement to nominate a target at this step of the process because it occurs before the Special Rule comes into play. Think of it as a field in a database which is mandatory, the system requires that field to be filled and will not let one proceed until it is filled. While this is because the system expects other Rules to need this value for reference, it doesn't matter if the Rule we decide to use has no purpose for this information as it is still mandatory. One still fill it in because the system requests we do so, if for nothing more then to get it done with so we can proceed to the next step.

Now, I know a few people have an issue with the above but from a Rule as Written point of view I can not support the opposite.

If one has a Special Rule which doesn't reference that field at all, I see no grounds for us to require that field be honored in some way. Yet some people seem to want to selectively apply restrictions from other rules, particularly to the placement of templates, that are not found in the new rules. If you do a search through the system, and good luck I never got that thing to work right for me, you will find a thread discussing this very point in relation to the Torrent Special Rule. Within people are more then willing to let the Torrent be placed by it's own unique rules but still demand it cover as many models in the target unit as possible, does not touch a friendly model, and follows other restrictions except the 'touch the base of the firing model.' They use the argument that these rules can be obeyed without conflict, ironically without realizing one can still place a Torrent template in a way that touches the base of the firing model as well so that restriction is also 'compatible.' I have yet to see why restriction X and Y are followed but Z is not, when the new instructions simply tell us to do P instead.

Of course if I am wrong and there is a Global Rule which states that an attack must hit, or have the possibility to hit, the targeted unit then I would gladly accept the page number.

The text reads:

"To fire the death ray, nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapons range, then nominate a second point within 3d6" of the first. Then draw a straight line between the two points. Every unit (friendly or Enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line. If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired during the same shooting phase it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray."

Using this tactic means that the death ray can't use its tesla destructor unless the ray also hits an enemy unit.

I think it has a nice balance of risk vs reward and penalty. I.E: Not being able to fire your TD and taking out on average ~3 from the lychgard squad (about 50 points each).

I was just wondering if there was some kind of Global Rule that forbids you using the death ray in this manner. But it doesn't seem so given how it over-rides the standard shooting sequence when nominating a target.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Death Raying your own Lychguard seems possible, actually. Very smart, maybe a little cheesy (But then, Lychguard are a little underpowered anyway) but still very smart, and RAW legal.

Checked the rulebook and the Necron codex, Neorealist is right here.

Their not UP, they are just way over-priced.

I think hitting them with the Deathray is legal, but 450 points for some guys to reflect some hits seems a bit much you know?

Sonicaucie,
Having now seen the full Rule for myself I can agree with what you are stating.

Even if someone was to fill my request to find a Global Rule that states the nominated target has to have the potential to be hit by the following attacks, the unique way this weapon 'nominates a target' would still allow one to shoot at a friendly unit without prejudiced. After all, the non-existence Global Rule requested would still be obeyed in this one situation, as the nominated target would be the friendly unit that was Hit during the attack. At least this one weapon is more clear when it comes to nomination and placement then other Special Rules, which is the default state I was deriving my conclusions from.

It also creates the humorous situation of the rest of the weapons can be fired at the friendly unit, if the controlling player decides they just wants to shoot their own men for fun... and I love laughing at this game, so thank you forum!

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Death Raying your own Lychguard seems possible, actually. Very smart, maybe a little cheesy (But then, Lychguard are a little underpowered anyway) but still very smart, and RAW legal.

Checked the rulebook and the Necron codex, Neorealist is right here.

Their not UP, they are just way over-priced.

I think hitting them with the Deathray is legal, but 450 points for some guys to reflect some hits seems a bit much you know?

I honestly find this tactic quite useful.

I usually pair the lychguard up with a res orb overlord and 2 harbingers of eternity with 2 chronometrons (I have 2 courts / overlords for this).

This allows you to reroll 2 of the invulnerables and about half the lychguard which fail their invulns get back up on average.

So, if you're going against a nasty MC or vehicle, normally you'd have to fire the laser and get one hit against the model. However, if you fly them in with a nightscythe and doomscythe in tow you get to position the lychguard cruising speed + 6" from the base of the nightscythe and then the doomscythe will death laser them.

So, on average you'll get 6 strength 10 AP1 hits against the unit you're gunning for while taking 2 losses (100 points).

I know that this tactic was probably pushing it a little, so I don't even want to ask if I can split fire the deflections given how the dispersion shield rules are written.

TheCrazyCryptek,
Overpriced is just another way of saying the models are under powered. This is because the only common veritable shared between units is the cost of purchase, and we are constantly told that is calculated so the units will be balanced against each other. A lot of the players I hear complain about X or Y being over-powered often agree that they would have less of an issue if it just cost more. Like wise, many people whom view a unit as over-priced would have less of an issue if they where given something to justify that cost.

The cost of that unit, even knowing only roughly what Necrons are like seeing I haven't got any experience with them, does seem very very much overpriced/under-powered if it is really 50 a piece!

I just want to add in that for maximum cheese and sure to get you slapped across the table is when you do this to an enemy Flyer.

The only problem with this is that the FAQ states that a death ray cannot hit a flyer in zoom or swooping mode. So, it's a bit iffy.

Q: Can a Doom Scythe’s death ray hit enemy Flyers and/or Flying
Monstrous Creatures? (p50)
A: The Death Ray can hit Flyers in Hover Mode (friendly or
enemy) and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures (friendly or
enemy). It cannot hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures

Sonicaucie,

Do the deflected shots roll to hit?
I really need to touch up on my Necron Rules but if the do hit automatically, or otherwise do not roll Snap shots, then this answer might interest you:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.