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Having a good look through my friends copy of the army book I was totally perplexed by how my Wood Elves, already being left behind in the power creep, could even attempt to put up a fair fight against a new dwarf army. Wood Elves have three tactics, lots of arrows, lots of fast things assault/harass things or Tree people. None of these will be of any use Vs the new Dwarves. High Armour saves and good shooting of their own mean that arrows simply aren't effective, en mass or on harassers. Canons/Guns/Stone Throwers>Arrows every time. Our melee won't do anything of use, with general high armour save and a nifty parry save would mitigate a lot of damage even IF we could ever make combat meaning that we WILL be hit back. Wood Elves cannot handle being hit back. The worst thing is that the Wood Elf armies best redeeming features, their Treekin and Treemen, are totally and utterly mitigated simply by a 5pt upgrade that grants flaming to their War Machines or to their Heroes, an Organ Gun with Flaming leaves very, very little chance of even a Treeman surviving. Heck, even our Warmachine hunters, our Eagles and Waywatchers are worthless due to a rune that means when a Warmachine is killed the unit that did it takes 2d6 strength 4 hits, none of our warmachine hunters can survive that. So unless we bring at least 1 hunter per Warmachine and manage to not get a single one shot down then we might have a chance to silence their guns.

It feels like the Woodies are being left in the dust, with High Elves and Dark Elves being superior in practically every way. We have nothing to counter WoC, Ogres or certain Ork and Goblin lists (How many stone throwers? For how cheap?). Every win against new releases feels like more of an uphill battle. Maybe there is some redeeming quality I am missing that would give us a head up on the beardy little fellows, but with such good saves, shooting and finally usable combat units all the while almost invalidating magic it I am failing to see the answer.

Nope, you pretty much nailed it, we get destroyed in most matchups these days, it just can't be helped, but I am lead to believe we are honestly next in the update cycle so perhaps hope is on the horizon.

You are missing how great your army looks and how much more winning with wood elves means than winning with the new dexs. Otherwise you are more or less correct.

My tactic I think will be to just run at their guns with dryads. T4, skirmishing with a ward save- some them might get through, right?

Just had an early morning game with a friends Dwarves, thinking I would of been totally obliterated. Funny thing was...I was right. I took 50 glade guard, thinking I could simply out range him and hope for goo rolls, which I got, hope he failed a lot of saves, which he did, but It didn't make any difference. The grudge thrower wiped a unit a turn, their guns took down all 3 Eagles turn two and the only hunter that made it to combat, a 5 man wild rider squad, did manage to kill his Organ Gun. Which then promptly exploded, taking the WR with them. Then it was simply a matter of dancing back as much as I could before the advancing dwarf guns got into range but eventually I ran out of board, they caught up then they began killing a unit a turn. Unit of 3 Treekin charge a unit of 10 Irondrakes, not a single Treekin survives over watch. It was slaughter and it wasn't fun. Best part was when the Beastweaver became a Dragon, ate a unit of Iron Drakes before being laid low in one turn of shooting. I killed 1 Organ Gun, 1 unit of Iron Drakes and a few Lonbeards with Arrows, he tabled me. All of this with good luck on my part. What can I do against that?

Wood elves deal with dwarves the same way everyone else does. Stay out if range of the war machines for six turns.

Not sure about dwarves but we've been playing an escalation campaign at my club and there are 2 wood elf players who generally do very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure about dwarves but we've been playing an escalation campaign at my club and there are 2 wood elf players who generally do very well.

Well, you bring a bow to a gunfight, what do you expect?

TanKoL wrote:
Well, you bring a bow to a gunfight, what do you expect?

This is the completely wrong approach to take, but also I imagine would be GW's response to questions like this. The WE book needs bringing up to speed and quickly, because one of their nicest model ranges is massively uncompetitive, and gets moreso with each re-release of other armies.

TanKoL wrote:
Well, you bring a bow to a gunfight, what do you expect?

So what am I to bring? My T 3 no save guys to an Axe fight? My flammable tree's to a flaming cannon fight? My Magic to a ''screw you magic'' fight? Please, enlighten me to what you would bring

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
My Magic to a ''screw you magic'' fight?

Dwarf anti-magic has taken a serious nerf in this book

TanKoL wrote:
Well, you bring a bow to a gunfight, what do you expect?

I don't think people are getting the humor in your post.

In case people don't realize, this is a joke. It's a play off the old saying, "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."

Of course we understand that, the problem is that he hit the nail on the head. The Wood Elf codex is a bow, the Dwarves are the gun. New vs old where the old is practically irrelevant.

Honest to god, I think the best tactic against gunline dwarf is MSU of dryads, and much running. Keep a spellsinger nearby to buff with magic (within 3 for the inevitable look out sirs).

Also, isn't there a lore of Loren spell that grants immunity to non magic missiles? Don't know how dwarf magic resistance works in this book, but buffing your stuff may work better.

thedarkavenger wrote:Wood elves deal with dwarves the same way everyone else does. Stay out if range of the war machines for six turns.

You're kdding right? You are aware the one warmachine they have that does not outrange us is the flame cannon right.

Aben Zin wrote:Honest to god, I think the best tactic against gunline dwarf is MSU of dryads, and much running. Keep a spellsinger nearby to buff with magic (within 3 for the inevitable look out sirs).

Also, isn't there a lore of Loren spell that grants immunity to non magic missiles? Don't know how dwarf magic resistance works in this book, but buffing your stuff may work better.

Yeah we do have that spell, shame that the rest of the lore is utter garbage except for one other spell.

 Krellnus wrote:

Yeah we do have that spell, shame that the rest of the lore is utter garbage except for one other spell.

Call of the Hunt you mean? Getting closer faster is always useful. Ariel's blessing could also be handy for a bit of extra survivability. But yeah, unless his entire army is camped in one big wood, that's pretty much it.

Call of the hunt is a little too hard to cast for what it does since lets face it, even though it is the only way in the game to charge outside of the movement phase, you are really going to cast it on something that is already in combat for that +1 attack, since the move is unreliable and prevents you from shooting and, to be frank, if you are in a combat where you desperately need 4 or so extra S4 attacks, you shouldn't have charged in the first place.

Not to mention getting that close for a charge is almost suicide. Heck, even if you make a charge against a Dwarf unit intend for Combat you will probably lose if you didn't lose any models. Wild Riders or Dryads are the only units I can imagine making to combat with and a good Ironbreaker unit will roll straight through them with a good save and a Parry save.

Take Dryads, great eagles, warhawks, fast cav, and a lore of beast wizard lord (or 2 lore of beast wizard lords).

Don't take a mix of shooting and combat, go all in.
2x level 3 beast magic wizards
2x branchwraiths
6x8 dryads
5 glad riders
3x5 wild riders
3x3 warhawks
2x great eagles
2x8 war dancers (wizard bunkers).

Dwarf Armies still suffer from a lack of mobility, and the fairly expensive units means if you just out deploy him, and cannot target enough of your units quickly enough.

T4 Skirmish and 5+ ward is not what a gunline likes. Pair that with 5 flying units, and 4 units of M9 fast cav, you've got a shot at it.

-Matt

 Krellnus wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Wood elves deal with dwarves the same way everyone else does. Stay out if range of the war machines for six turns.

You're kdding right? You are aware the one warmachine they have that does not outrange us is the flame cannon right.

I meant that you camp a minimum of 49" away for six turns and not give them any points.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Wood elves deal with dwarves the same way everyone else does. Stay out if range of the war machines for six turns.

You're kdding right? You are aware the one warmachine they have that does not outrange us is the flame cannon right.

I meant that you camp a minimum of 49" away for six turns and not give them any points.

That would only work if the Dwarf player deploys his whole army in one corner, letting the WE player deploy in the opposite corner. If the Dwarf player deploys in the center of his deployment zone, close to the 12" edge, then there is very little of the table left that is outside of 48" away.

Saldiven wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Wood elves deal with dwarves the same way everyone else does. Stay out if range of the war machines for six turns.

You're kdding right? You are aware the one warmachine they have that does not outrange us is the flame cannon right.

I meant that you camp a minimum of 49" away for six turns and not give them any points.

That would only work if the Dwarf player deploys his whole army in one corner, letting the WE player deploy in the opposite corner. If the Dwarf player deploys in the center of his deployment zone, close to the 12" edge, then there is very little of the table left that is outside of 48" away.

Table is 48" across. The only armies I've seen that can block it off well are beast men and VC. Dwarves cannot run an army with enough drops to protect their investment in artillery. If a dwarf player deploys spread out , then scouts and fast cav get the war machines, providing the wood elf player is clever. The dwarves go into a corner, it's an auto draw.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:Wood elves deal with dwarves the same way everyone else does. Stay out if range of the war machines for six turns.

You're kdding right? You are aware the one warmachine they have that does not outrange us is the flame cannon right.

I meant that you camp a minimum of 49" away for six turns and not give them any points.

That would only work if the Dwarf player deploys his whole army in one corner, letting the WE player deploy in the opposite corner. If the Dwarf player deploys in the center of his deployment zone, close to the 12" edge, then there is very little of the table left that is outside of 48" away.

Table is 48" across. The only armies I've seen that can block it off well are beast men and VC. Dwarves cannot run an army with enough drops to protect their investment in artillery. If a dwarf player deploys spread out , then scouts and fast cav get the war machines, providing the wood elf player is clever. The dwarves go into a corner, it's an auto draw.

I don't want to be a jerk, but this is seriously 10th grade geometry here.

Take a single Grudge Thrower and place it right at the 12" deployment zone edge in the center of the deployment zone. This puts it at a point 12 inches from the Dwarf edge and 36 inches from either side line. That makes it 36 inches from the Wood Elf board edge. Let's find the distance from that Grudge Thrower to the extreme corners of the Wood Elf deployment zone.

So, let's look at the Pythagorean Theorum to calculate the distance from that Grudge Thrower to either corner of the board. Side A is the distance from the grudge thrower to the board edge, or 36 inches. Side B is the distance from the edge of the Dwarf deployment zone to the Wood Elf player's board edge. The table is 48 inches across, the Dwarf deployment zone is 12" deep, leaving that side also being 36". (Hey, it's a Right Triangle.)

So, onto the calculation.

A^2 + B^2 = C^2
(36^2) + (36^2) = C^2
1296 + 1296 = C^2
2592 = C^2
50.91 = C

So, that single 80 point warmachine covers all of the Wood Elf deployment zone except for a tiny triangle of space a few inches per side in each extreme corner of the deployment zone.

The Dwarf player would not have to spread out at all. He would merely need to deploy centrally on the board and render 95%+ of the board in range of his warmachines. If this is done, then there is literally nowhere on the board for the Wood Elf player to deploy in such a fashion as to deny victory points by being out of range of shooting as you suggested. Additionally, the player can take multiples of this warmachine as well as cannons. He can protect the flanks of the warmachines with ranked infantry tougher than anything the WE army can break and screen it from fast cav charges by units like Irondrakes that are aching for Fast Cavarly to get within charge distance of the Warmachines.

Saldiven wrote:The Dwarf player would not have to spread out at all. He would merely need to deploy centrally on the board and render 95%+ of the board in range of his warmachines. If this is done, then there is literally nowhere on the board for the Wood Elf player to deploy in such a fashion as to deny victory points by being out of range of shooting as you suggested. Additionally, the player can take multiples of this warmachine as well as cannons. He can protect the flanks of the warmachines with ranked infantry tougher than anything the WE army can break and screen it from fast cav charges by units like Irondrakes that are aching for Fast Cavarly to get within charge distance of the Warmachines.

To be entirely fair if the dwarf player deploys like this the entire question becomes less of an issue as elves actually have somewhat of a chance if they can deploy so close.

 ansacs wrote:

Saldiven wrote:The Dwarf player would not have to spread out at all. He would merely need to deploy centrally on the board and render 95%+ of the board in range of his warmachines. If this is done, then there is literally nowhere on the board for the Wood Elf player to deploy in such a fashion as to deny victory points by being out of range of shooting as you suggested. Additionally, the player can take multiples of this warmachine as well as cannons. He can protect the flanks of the warmachines with ranked infantry tougher than anything the WE army can break and screen it from fast cav charges by units like Irondrakes that are aching for Fast Cavarly to get within charge distance of the Warmachines.

To be entirely fair if the dwarf player deploys like this the entire question becomes less of an issue as elves actually have somewhat of a chance if they can deploy so close.

It doesn't matter if WE deploy close or not to Dwarfs with their current respective books. There is no need, whatsoever, for Dwarfs to castle in a corner against WE. As Alex pointed out in his OP, until the WE get an update, it's a bad match up with Dwarfs with the current book.

Runed warmachines destroy the various tree creatures, and great weapons on everything beat everything else in close combat. The addition of 40+ Quarrellers and/or Irondrakes make MSU WE builds a liability, while things like Grudge Throwers wreck larger blocks of archers.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
[...] What can I do against that?

Don't play against dwarfs until woodies get their own 8th ed book.

Looking at the current elven standards, I would expect an army full of M9 fast cav with S4 armour piercing repeater bows, and ridiculously good infantry models with infinite re-rolls and more special rules that you can possibly remember. All of them will be sold in 45€ per 10 guys boxes, of course.

adicto20 wrote:Don't play against dwarfs until woodies get their own 8th ed book.

Keep hearing persistent rumours of no new books for WE, Brets & Beastmen in the next edition, as in, they're getting written out.

adicto20 wrote:All of them will be sold in 45€ per 10 guys boxes, of course.

Not forgetting minimum unit size of 20

 grantosjones wrote:

adicto20 wrote:Don't play against dwarfs until woodies get their own 8th ed book.

Keep hearing persistent rumours of no new books for WE, Brets & Beastmen in the next edition, as in, they're getting written out.

We'll know before too long; the next WHFB army book release should be within the next three months, and if it's something other than WE, Brets, or Beastment, then you might be right.

Though, the rumors I've read online seem to indicate that the next WHFB book will be WE, but of course, that's never set in stone.

I certainly hope they don't write out any armies, I'm still hurting from when they ditched big hats when I was a wee lad. If the next WHFB release is a new rulebook, the signs point at us having to forget about those 3 armies. :(

 grantosjones wrote:
I certainly hope they don't write out any armies, I'm still hurting from when they ditched big hats when I was a wee lad. If the next WHFB release is a new rulebook, the signs point at us having to forget about those 3 armies. :(

I wouldn't be that sure about it; the Beastmen book was the last book before 6th edition, I believe, so it's really not that old (right at 4 years). The Wood Elf and Brettonian books are both about twice that old, I think. So, even if the next release is a new edition, it doesn't really say anything about Beastmen; they might be the first book of the next edition.

Honestly, I think Brets are the one that's most up in the air because the rules of 8th edition hurt Heavy Cavarly more than most unit types (Steadfast and Step-up being the biggest things).