Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Play another 50 point mosh pit game with a friend last night. Long story short my list was something like: Grand Scrutator Severius, Repenter, Revenger, Crusader, Reckoner, Vanquisher, Choir of Menoth, Exemplars Errant, Exemplar Cinerators, Vilmon. He's list was: Deneghra, 3 Bane Thralls units, two with UA, Tartarus, and some jacks that don't really matter because THE THRALLS HORRIBLE MURDERED ME!!! As a MoP player how do I ...not die like a punk to these Bane Thralls, do I need to think diffrently, get some other models?

1. His list is illegal. Unless there's a theme force I don't know,
the Bane Thrall UA is only FA:1, so he can only have 1 unit
with tough Bane Thralls.

2. Your errants need the unit attachment to survive Deneghra
as while the standard is in play it makes them immune to
enemy spells (immune to being targeted by enemy spells,
that is, they can still get hit by other nasty things she does).

3. Ther'esmore, but I'm tired.

I imagine pFeora's feat would be very effective at wiping out 70% of their entire army. Harbinger cataclysm/feat would be extremely effective as well. Wait for him to pop deneghra's feat and then drop harbinger's to mitigate it. He nerfs your stats but all of his banes cannot move towards you without instant death from godhead. I imagine reclaimer solos would also be very effective at limiting movement of the banes since they cannot get within melee range of them.

Unfortunately, menoth has alot of effects against living enemy models, most of which will not work on 90% of cryx.

Also - The bane thrall UA is field allowance 1 and none of either Deneghra's tier lists increase is. Are you sure he was running 3 bane thrall units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - I believe Awe from Harbinger would incur it's penalty on deneghra when she tries to land her offensive debuffs so long as you get her within harbinger's table consuming control radius. pDeneghra is still living, so she would be rolling 5+2d6 to land her spells.

In addition to what the others said, you're running too many Jacks to face down so many Weapon Masters effectively. Get yourself some more infantry.

Toss some Zealots + UA at them and see how they like invulnerable infantry tying them in place for a turn while you lob Vanquisher shots into them with the help of a couple Vassals.

3 Bane Thrall units with BLT + UA (even with just the 1) might not be the friendlyist way of getting you used to the game. I know it's nice to run these uber combos but your friend might ease back a little or at least give you pointers where your force might struggle. Then once you've found you feet you can both up your game and smash the be'jesus out of each other!

I don't have much experience of Menoth but I agree you may be running too many 'jacks. With all the greedy 'jacks after your Focus you're starving your caster. Also with too many 'jacks you usually get a couple just standing around not doing much.

 malfred wrote:
1. His list is illegal. Unless there's a theme force I don't know,
the Bane Thrall UA is only FA:1, so he can only have 1 unit
with tough Bane Thralls.

2. Your errants need the unit attachment to survive Deneghra
as while the standard is in play it makes them immune to
enemy spells (immune to being targeted by enemy spells,
that is, they can still get hit by other nasty things she does).

3. Ther'esmore, but I'm tired.

Yeah, it is illegal for that list, since both p and eDenny do not have a theme list with Bane thralls at all I believe just having checked it. If that is the case, then he might not be paying attention to FA for their UA (bane thralls do have FA3) or he is cheating.

Looking at your list, I noticed that you have a large amount of jacks (which is not bad for pSeverius, but he wants to have a balance of both units and Jacks so I recommend dropping one or two such as the Crusader and potentially the Repenter (although it will help with lighting up Infantry, but if you think the points are better invested elsewhere then I say drop him, so that is your prerogative). Also drop the Exemplar Cinerators since they are kind of Lackluster for their points, and trade them in for Zealots and their UA, which is an annoy tarpit that can potentially put the hurt on bane thralls with pSeverius under Eye of Menoth with their firebombs when in their area of stealth. Another thing or two to get is some Vassals of Menoth to give your jacks an extra ranged or melee attack (mostly to use on the Vanquisher to light them on fire, but it can be only affected by it once, so use the other Vassal on another jack that is taking care of the banes). Although Bane Thralls have stealth and you automatically miss if you are more that 5'' away, they suffer continuous fire under its 4'' AOE. Another thing you can do is take Visgoth Roven and friends, give said Vanquisher True Sight, which ignores stealth and cloud effects, making to much easier to take care of the Bane Thralls.

As someone else mention, get the Errants UA, as it does wonders against Denny throwing de-buff spells at you with the Standard (her feat not so much, but still a strong counter against her spell list). Another thing is to use both the Zealots and Errants as a jam/tarpit, as Bane Thralls do not as much against single wound infantry. To keep them alive a bit more, also see about getting the Covenant of Menoth and Rhupert Carvolo so Rhupert can grant one of the Units tough and fearless and the Covenant of Menoth with no knockdown can ignore the knockdown that happens with tough (although DO NOT put tough and fearless on the Zealots when their mini-feat is up.

Unless you are using Vilmon to hold the zone in scenario and your opponent has a lack of Magical Weapons as well as two other Paladins, I say drop him to ease up three points to use on something else.


Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope you find this useful OP.

Cinerators should be swapped out for bastions. At the moment they're just better.

pSevy loves him some zealots. Eye + attack/damage prayer makes their bombs have pow 9 blasts. That kills banethralls with an average roll. Combined with their 1 turn invincibility, they're ridiculous.

Sevy loves his Blessing of Vengeance. Never leave home without it.

Vilmon and paladins of the wall in general work best as a pack. Vilmon + 2 can create headaches for your opponents flank or dominate chokepoints.

So, all this in mind creating a variation of your list:

Grand Scrutator Severius (*6pts)
* Blessing of Vengeance (7pts)
* Reckoner (8pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Errants (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard Bearer (2pts)
Holy Zealots (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Holy Zealot Monolith Bearer (2pts)
Exemplar Errant Seneschal (2pts)
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon (3pts)
Paladin of the Order of the Wall (2pts)
Paladin of the Order of the Wall (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

or if you want to fit another WM squad in:

Grand Scrutator Severius (*6pts)
* Blessing of Vengeance (7pts)
* Reckoner (8pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Errants (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
* Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard Bearer (2pts)
Holy Zealots (Leader and 5 Grunts) (4pts)
* Holy Zealot Monolith Bearer (2pts)
Knights Exemplar (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Exemplar Errant Seneschal (2pts)
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon (3pts)
Paladin of the Order of the Wall (2pts)
Paladin of the Order of the Wall (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

Double check and see if he had bane knights or all bane thralls. Bane knights are very similar and similar looking, but play much differently.

Against The bane thralls you want to know their threat range and out threat them. They are speed 5 and Tartarus only gives them 2" more on charges only. I'm not super knowledgable about all the Menoth options, but anything you have that increases your threat helps. Charge them first and they go down pretty quickly, even with tough.

Know Tartarus' stats, rules and threat range well. Don't give him huge swaths of infantry to thresher.

Also against not just banes, but Cryx in general, Light them on fire. Templates that light stuff on fire are good, and tend to ignore stealth since they are probably going to scatter anyways. AOEs that stay in play and damage troops like covering fire are nice, too. Again, not sure if Menoth has stuff like that or not.

And any abilities that make you immune to magic or untargetable by magic will help as Cryx often relies heavily on debuff spells.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Daughters of the Flame yet. They hit def 17 with defender's ward, which means mat 6 banes hit on an 11, they have anatomical precision so they don't care about bane armor*, they are speed 7 with acrobatics so they can dive right into the back line of banes and maybe even take out a UA if he's not playing careful. and they have two attacks in case the thralls make a pesky tough roll. Daughters are pretty much custom built for bane slaying. Their character solo, Nicia, is custom built for solo killing, so she should be going after Tartarus like a heat seeking missile.

Combine that with pSevy's ability to shut down arc nodes or even stop pDenny from generating focus for a turn if she gets too close and you've got a good base for messing up that list really bad. You should also be playing with scenarios, because Daughters will get their maximum benefit if they're jamming the slow-as-hell bane thralls out of the zone.

*Edit: I forgot anatomical precision is only for living models. Well, they still kill thralls on 7's, which is easy on a charge and over 50% on a non charge attack against thralls.

I would bother with the reckoner. It won't be very effective against the banes since I think it's ash cloud only effects living models and cryx won't be doing a lot of shooting anyways. Better off using the 8 points for some reclaimer solos and more infantry

Might want to consider Vanquishers just so you can hit them with continuous fire.

Also, Rhoven lets one model ignore stealth. Great if you want to snipe out BLT and then enliven back from the BT.

KingKodo wrote:
I would bother with the reckoner. It won't be very effective against the banes since I think it's ash cloud only effects living models and cryx won't be doing a lot of shooting anyways. Better off using the 8 points for some reclaimer solos and more infantry

The reckoner is a great jack. Not taking it because one opponent is running banes is rather list stacking.

Wow! Ton of great reply's, thank you everyone! I've been thing about getting holy zealots and Daughters of the flame for a bit but, Visgoth Rhoven was under my radar. Because of my budget I can only get $40 or so worth of units per month so next month I'll pick up Visgoth Rhoven and a Pally, what do you think? Since I'm getting more then three responses let me give you a a list of all the PoM model I have.

Warcasters
Grand Scrutator Severius
High Exemplar Kreoss(who doesn't have this guy?)
Grand Exemplar Kreoss

Light warjacks
Repenter
Revenger

Heavy warjacks
Crusader
Reckoner
Vanquisher

Troops
Choir of Menoth
Cinerators
Exemplars Errant

Solos
Vassal Mechanik
Vassal of Menoth
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon

Any list or unit suggestions are welcome and thank you again!

 Surtur wrote:

KingKodo wrote:
I would bother with the reckoner. It won't be very effective against the banes since I think it's ash cloud only effects living models and cryx won't be doing a lot of shooting anyways. Better off using the 8 points for some reclaimer solos and more infantry

The reckoner is a great jack. Not taking it because one opponent is running banes is rather list stacking.

I have to agree with Surtur on this. Although Ashen Vale is not that effective against the majority of Cyrx, the Reckoner is still a good all around jack for taking care of High Def/Low Arm Warcasters and Jacks to help/enable the Assassination run or taking down that pesky Bone/Hell Jack.or Beasts with High Def. Still, the main worry I would have about Cryx is finding ways to stop their magic or making it hard for them to do so (especially pDenny, and I do not want to sound that I am list stacking in this, because having no sound way to take care of Magic against Cryx is going to put you in a world of hell). Would I still take a Reckoner? Hell fething yeah I would, but it is one of those jack that it is not a good idea to run into a group of infantry that is good and that,,,,


And Warplock, I say still get Rhoven and friends, but another two things you should really get is Rhupert and the Covenant of Menoth, as this brings the Tarpitting/Jamming effectiveness of the Errants way up. Also the Errant's UA if you do not have that yet.

 Surtur wrote:

KingKodo wrote:
I would bother with the reckoner. It won't be very effective against the banes since I think it's ash cloud only effects living models and cryx won't be doing a lot of shooting anyways. Better off using the 8 points for some reclaimer solos and more infantry

The reckoner is a great jack. Not taking it because one opponent is running banes is rather list stacking.

The reckoner is a fantastic jack, never said it wasn't. It just is not as effective against cryx which is what the OP asked for advice on, specificallyagainst bane heavy lists which, again, the reckoner is not that great at dealing wwith. A vanquisher would be much more effective against bane hordes. Reclaimer solos would also be better at dealing with the bane thralls.

 Surtur wrote:

KingKodo wrote:
I would bother with the reckoner. It won't be very effective against the banes since I think it's ash cloud only effects living models and cryx won't be doing a lot of shooting anyways. Better off using the 8 points for some reclaimer solos and more infantry

The reckoner is a great jack. Not taking it because one opponent is running banes is rather list stacking.

Or just adjusting to your meta.

And it's not like making lists for certain armies doesn't happen in tournaments. That's the whole point of multiple lists and the "sideboard" type of rules.

Basically if stealth armies are kicking your butt then you need to adjust for that.

Having a vanquisher lay down two 4" continuous fire inducing shots every turn is going to be significantly more effective against bane heavy lists than a reckoner will be. Pair it with some reclaimers stuffed in and around your critical models, and you have a list that is very capable of countering melee centric lists with lots of infantry. Reclaimers are also cheap $ wise. I saw them for around 10$ online.

 Mordekiem wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

KingKodo wrote:
I would bother with the reckoner. It won't be very effective against the banes since I think it's ash cloud only effects living models and cryx won't be doing a lot of shooting anyways. Better off using the 8 points for some reclaimer solos and more infantry

The reckoner is a great jack. Not taking it because one opponent is running banes is rather list stacking.

Or just adjusting to your meta.

And it's not like making lists for certain armies doesn't happen in tournaments. That's the whole point of multiple lists and the "sideboard" type of rules.

Basically if stealth armies are kicking your butt then you need to adjust for that.

I would agree to adjust to your meta, but this is building to specifically counter a list, not multiple lists. Not taking a model(s) that could be considered a staple for just one opponent is a little rude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warplock wrote:
Wow! Ton of great reply's, thank you everyone! I've been thing about getting holy zealots and Daughters of the flame for a bit but, Visgoth Rhoven was under my radar. Because of my budget I can only get $40 or so worth of units per month so next month I'll pick up Visgoth Rhoven and a Pally, what do you think? Since I'm getting more then three responses let me give you a a list of all the PoM model I have.

*stuff*

Any list or unit suggestions are welcome and thank you again!

For $40 to counter stealth? Deliverers. Cleansers can work too, but with the high defense of most stealth, they will miss a lot with a rat only as high as your have fingers on a hand. Usually the best thing to do with the deliverers is usually to group them into 3 sets of 3 and one set of 1. With Eye of Menoth you will be looking at pow 7/8/9 blasts depending on how you combine their fire. Even when going against non stealth infantry, they're solid and if nothing else, lobbing a pow 16 (17 with Sevy) at a jack never hurts.

I do not understand Surtur. The OP asked for suggestions on how to deal with banenoun heavy lists. We are providing suggestions for that. Changing a single warjack or adding different solos that are also considered very good does not seem to be skewing only against a list consisting of the afore mentioned models.

Deliverers are not a counter to banes.

To kill them with AOEs you need Vanquishers. Pow9 blast damage will kill plenty and fire will get 2/3 of those that survive.

Well, on one hand it creates a list that can only handle one list. Lists should be designed with at least some T.A.C. mentality. The two list format allows for more specialization, but in essence there is still flexibility. Every list needs give and take and failing to learn list building essentials or relying on counters will hurt the OP later on.

On the other, it's pushing the OP towards a less well rounded selection which will hurt him more than help him in the short run.

Replacing the reckoner with a vanquisher helps the list against mass infantry which, last I checked, is extremely common in this game. This is not skew vs one and only one list and its not like vanquisher is somehow only effective against infantry. It can also pummel other jacks nearly as effectively as the reckoner can and it is useful for landing continuous fire on a war caster for assassination. Ignoring the merits of the vanquisher under the guise of skewing a 50pt list is just as crippling as actually making a skew list, which is not at all what we are suggesting

Vanquishers beat reckoners hands down. Plus it's much more focus efficient

Here's a good suggestion; take both jacks and a reclaimer and see what you get more mileage out of in your local meta.

Well, you can just play Harbinger with a Vanquisher + Vassal, feat 2nd turn and laugh.


But outside of Harbinger, the scariest Menoth lists (to me) either have a Reckoner/Vanquisher combination...or a Avatar/Vanquisher combination with a Vassal. The Vanquisher requires zero focus to do its job and Cryx (including Denny herself) do not like fire.

Your Errants should always have the Standard. Always. Usually the piper. Errants that are immune to spells, have self sac, Tough + Martyr is pretty much the most miserable unit to chew through in the game.

Vanquishers clear infantry, true, but reckoners have
the threat range and straight up assassination
potential.

Yeah, but the Reckoner isn't going to help with the Bane problem because of Stealth. unless you brought Rhoven.

In which case you'd still be better off helping the Vanquisher out instead since its gun actually has a higher pow.


I'll tell you, there is nothing more terrifying for infantry to face than a menoth list with 1, or 2, vanquishers and vassals.

My eFeora list has 2 Vanquishers and 2 vassals. Infantry tend to disappear once that train starts rolling.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but the Reckoner isn't going to help with the Bane problem because of Stealth. unless you brought Rhoven.

In which case you'd still be better off helping the Vanquisher out instead since its gun actually has a higher pow.


I'll tell you, there is nothing more terrifying for infantry to face than a menoth list with 1, or 2, vanquishers and vassals.

My eFeora list has 2 Vanquishers and 2 vassals. Infantry tend to disappear once that train starts rolling.

A Redeemer with eFeora's Bond is also pretty cool, the vanquishers just add to the flaming death. Flame damage rolls can also very easily threaten Denegrah as well, if you get a lucky scatter.

The only thing with Vanquishers vs Bane Thralls is that banes threat 12" with Bane Lord , so make sure that first salvo counts, or any surviving banes will be ripping into those Vanqs.

Keep in mind he can toss two of those salvos using the vassal. A pair of 4" aoe can cover a ton of board space. Then stick a reclaimer near the vanquisher to prevent the banes from charging it thus forcing them into your tar put infantry which in turn fuels the reclaimer. Also, the reclaimer taking the soul tokens will hinder a lot of other cryx models who want those soul tokens.

KingKodo wrote:
Keep in mind he can toss two of those salvos using the vassal. A pair of 4" aoe can cover a ton of board space. Then stick a reclaimer near the vanquisher to prevent the banes from charging it thus forcing them into your tar put infantry which in turn fuels the reclaimer. Also, the reclaimer taking the soul tokens will hinder a lot of other cryx models who want those soul tokens.

You cannot Ancillary attack the same jack twice, but with two different jacks, you can still put the hurt in the banes even if it misses.