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 Furyou Miko wrote:
he took three minor orders of the Sororitas (so one or two thousand Sisters of Battle) and a Battlefleet to Fenris and they got slaughtered

No, it wasn't a slaughter. The fluff just says that they fought the Wolves for a while, and were eventually told to withdraw. No mention of it being a slaughter.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The fluff doesn't say anything beyond that they fought and that the SoB withdrew after being unable to defeat the SW defending the Fang, so it could very well have been a slaughter. The SoB are after all not known for giving up easily.
But as the fluff doesn't say anything everyone is free to think whatever he/she wants of it.

What it does say is that the SoB are still fighting them after three weeks, when the Ecclesiarchy decides to withdraw its forces becuase it decides to leave the Wolves alone. This implies that they could have kept fighting if they wished. The decision to withdraw was entuirely willing, not a result of their forces being decimated.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Sisters were involved in a battle. Both sides probably got slaughtered.

Slaughtered seems like a bit of a strong word to use, though. It was probably a hard fight, but I don't think that either side was trashed that badly. At least not all of them.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yet, it took a Space Wolf to tell a Canoness that she did the wrong thing by accepting refugees. Double standards much?

Imperator Dei, but I hate Blood of Asaheim.

Luckily, we can just disregard it. Sounds like the author really had little idea about or regard for the Sisters anyway. I think the fact that the author writes a Canoness losing her faith due to a war really speaks volumes about how well he actually knows the SoB.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Since destroying rogue Astartes chapters is one of the sacred duties of the Adepta Sororitas

.

Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

Additionally, check the alter of was missions in your AS codex, specifically the one about killing the arch heretic. You'll see mention that the Sisters have destroyed multiple Marine Chapters.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Or :
Inquisitor sends specialist infiltrator to release some kind of virus weapon, kills all the humans of Fenris. Space wolves can not recruit anyone anymore. Job done !

Or, as Peregrine is so fond of saying, nuke the feth out of them!

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

Ah, this conversation again.

Firstly, the Badab War was hardly a typical situation. The Space Marine Chapter in that case was in control of a whole system, and had the support of PDFs and other Marine Chapters. That's a whole other deal from purging a single Marine Chapter.

Now, as for Chapters in general, the Imperium has no qualms about purging those. As I noted above, it is one of the duties of the SoB to purge rogue Chapters, and their 6E codex notes that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters too. Chapters aren't untouchable, the Imperiun isn't scared to take them down if need be. They've had ample opportunities to observe that rogue Marines are bad news, so they need to be able to deal with rogue chapters quickly and firmly.

As for the Wolves in general, they too don't seem to be as untouchable as you're making out. The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Wolves right in their home system, and kept it up for three weeks. Nobody came to help the Wolves, and there were apparently no reprecussions against the Ecclesiarchy for their attack. If the Wolves really were so ubntouchable, you would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the first place, and would have gotten dire punishments afterwards.

Oh, also, I don't see the Templars being particularly eager to jump to the aid of the Wolves. The Templars are adherent believers in the Imperial Creed, and the Wolves are anti-authoritarian and suspected of pagan worship.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't think that was an unusual situation.

It really was. Huron had an entire sector under his direct command, and several close allies. Meanwhile, other Chapters have indeed been wiped out. If they're all so difficult, then why is the Badab war regarded as so exceptional?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
First off you've got to consider that no Space Marine Chapter exists in an isolated political vacuum, they've got planetary leadership, Navy and Guard commanders, other Space Marines, Inquisitors, and the like who they may have bailed out in the past who may owe them favours, some may even have more formalized relationships.

That's all well and good, butn if a Chapter screws up in some way, not all of those "friends" will be so supportive, and few would be willing to risk being branded traitors or heretics by aiding a Chapter against the Inquisition.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Second, remember the difficulty in long-range communication inherent in the Imperium; a Space Marine Chapter's allies are likely to be people nearby they work with frequently, while the Inquisitor can't exactly call up Terra to enforce his authority on a lark if the local Navy post commander doesn't think he's got enough to justify bombing Fenris.

The Inquisitior doesn't need to call Terra to ask for permission. He's an Inquisitor. If he suspects treachery, he has to ask. Again, the Imperium is not afraid to deal with traitorous Marines. The local forces, such as the Navy, would have to obey the Inquisitor anyway. That's one of the main powers of the Inquisition.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Third, you've got to have an Inquisitor who's actually motivated to stick his neck out to pull something like this; if he doesn't have enough backing (which he needs evidence of wrongdoing to get) his head is first on the chopping block when the Space Wolves come looking for someone to blame for a failed assault on their homeworld.

The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Fenrisian system for three weeks and the Wolves didn't try to tear down the Ecclesiarchy. Likewise, the Ecclesiarchy was able to do this and get away with it, and was able to act on suspicions and an attack on their people. The Wolves aren't that untouchable.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Fourthly, Space Marines (with some exceptions) tend to stick together

Nobody came to help them in the three weeks that the Sisters were attacking the Wolves right in their home turf. Single Marine Chapters have also been wiped out in the fluff. It's not a case of attacking one Chapter will suddenly result in other Chapters backing them up.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That is probably why they are sent.

No. They are sent because they are effective. AS codex states that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters, and that's right here in 6th Edition. They're not just sent because they happen to be able to put up a fight, they're sent because they've proven then can do it. Indeed, a WD that was actually about Rogue Marine Chapters said this:

Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

So it's not just SoB fluff bigging the SoB up, it's there in Space Marine fluff too.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

I know you'll probably grumble about it becuase it's old, but Citadel Journal #49 had a bit that dealt with how Sisters go about fighting Marine Chapters:

"Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. These Strike Forces are composed of the very best the Adepta Sororitas can field, and are equipped to an even higher standard than is usual within the Orders Militant. Led by a senior member of the Ordo Hereticus, the force can call upon the aid of the Imperial Navy, from whose troop transports they can deploy using the small numbers of drop pods each of the Orders Militant maintains exclusively for these operations."

So, it's not just a standard head-on attack as many people seem to assume, but a surgical strike on the Chapter's leadership, before presumably finishing off the rest. Also note the part that calls the Sisters possibly the only force other than Space Marines capable of successfully taking down a Chapter. Whilst old, this source seems to line up with the mindset that GW has maintained to the present, that Sisters are fully capable of fighting Marines.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Then amend my post to sixty orders.

Wait... So you're saying that you think it would take 6000 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines? Have to say, don't really agree with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No, they are anything between 1 up to 1000

Actually, AS codex puts the minimum at "barely a hundred". Don't think they'd have a Minor Order with just one Sister. Though that would be pretty funny. P

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok then, between 8 to 1000 !

Heh. Now I'm tempted to paint up a Canoness and a single Battle Sister squad to run as allies, representing a very small but very enthusiastic Minor Order.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
No, I did not say that it would take 6000 sisters to kill 1000 Marines

Well, you did in that you said it would require 60 Orders of 100 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines. But okay,

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
but I said that IF it does take that many, it would not be very effective. A mission can be successful, but that does not mean that it was effective. The sources you show say that they are one of the few who can succeed at all- but at what cost?

You're assuming that the Sisters would take massive casualties whilst doing this. As the strikeforce article suggested, it doesn't seem to be a straight-up attack. Rather, the Sisters use a surgical strike to cripple the Chapter and then presumably go from there.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, the oldness of it still makes me bat 3-4 eyebrows at it. I am personally quite reluctant to take the old stuff as final word things, but it is interesting material, for sure.

But has GW said otherwise in the meantime? We've still got this statement that Sisters have wiped out entire Marine Chapters in 6th, so it would seem that GW is still sticking with the idea that Sisters can wipe out Marine Chapters. Therefore, it would seem that older fluff, back when the idea was explored in more depth, is still valid. I'd also not be surprised if other factions had had things explored back then that haven't really been touched upon since, so I doubt that the Sisters are the only ones who might need to reference older fluff to get elaboration on something.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You're assuming they succeed. I'd assume at least a good few chapters to be smarter than to leave their high command vulnerable to an enemy that almost entirely lack snipers, drop pod equivalents, and so on and so forth. Who says a Celestian is superior to a Honour Guard?

Didn't say the Sisters would always succeed, but apparently they've succeeded at it enough to be considered a go-to force to deal with a rogue Chapter. As for them actually fighting the Chapter's leadership, that source I mentioned actually notes that the Sisters have drop-pods. They were also actually able to field them in 2E. Additedly, even i might start to question that since, to my knowledge, it hasn't been referenced since, but it's there.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's just my way of thinking- the older it is, the higher my eyebrow is raised. YMMV.

I can understand where you're coming from. But, as I said, this sort of thing hasn't been touched upon for a while and hasn't really been contradicted. Also I think one has to cut the Sisters some degree of slack here, since their fluff hasn't had as much chance to grow and evolve since their 3E codex.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, SM turning traitor is also very much a rare thing.

Sure, but it's common enough that the Sisters alone have dealt with it multiple times, and are recognised as an effective response to it.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
(Or that SoB are alone, the Inquisition has many assets and Troike mentioned inquisitors) but you know.

While that source did indeed mention Inquisitors, it shoud be noted that it was back in 3E, when the Sisters were sharing a codex with the Inquisiton. Meanwhile, the other sources only mention the Sisters themselves in fighting Marine Chapters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And I gather 4000+ points of Chaos Marines, reach level 60 as Chaos Marines on Dawn of War II (Which I have like 1000 hours on), play as Chaos Marines a lot in Space Marine (I even have the Chaos DLC), but the mention of a third eyebrow is what gains me the ire of the Sisters?!

Well, if we were to accuse everyone with a Chaos army of heresy, we'd be overworked!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
One of the earliest pieces of art shows a Sister shooting a Rainbow Warrior Marine dead.

That was all the way back in RT. Apparently, it was also how the Sisters were first introduced.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, rather let your Minor Order be commanded by a Sister Superior (or at least, a Sister Superior count-as).

That wouldn't really work in-game, though. Somebody needs to be the HQ.

Anyway, I like Canonesses. Can't help it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”.

Sure, but as Miko mentioned, the SoB recruitment rate is somewhat slow. If they were losing massive amounts of Sisters each time, they'd suffer greatly for it, since they've also got their regular battles to fight as well. But they've been able to purge multiple Marine Chapters throughout their existence, and are viewed as one of the few forces that is capable of doing it. So I doubt that a few thousand of Sisters are slaughtered every time they need to cull a Chapter. I mean, the IG could just be sent to do it if drowning the Marines in bodies was considered the only way, but we can see that the Sisters are described as a preffered answer to a rogue Chapter, and Sisters are a much more precious and finite resource.

And, really, I think it's underestimating the SoB just a bit to think that they'd require numerical superiority to a comical degree to succeed at this. I could accept it being over somewhere over 1000 Sisters, sure, but I think it starts to get a bit silly somewhere around 3000. Also, again, that Citadel Journal source seemed to imply that their method for fighting Marine Chapters was to try to use surgical strikes first, so it wouldn't necessarily just be a standard war of attrition anyway.

Ooh, now the gauntlet has been thrown down!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?),

I feel I should highlight that there's fluff stating that Sisters are "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter". Also, the AS codex notes that they recieve the best equipment the Imperium can offer. So the fluff doesn't seem to agree that the equipment of Marines is "much" better. Anyway, moving on to your specific points, the Sororitas bolter doesn't seem to be significantly less effective than the Marine bolter, being reffered to as one of the best patterns of bolters and dealing the same damage on the TT (I know the tabletop can be a bit iffy, but here I'm using it in combination with the fluff). Artifacer armour? The Ecclesiarchy is extremely rich, and could quite concievably have some artifacer armour for the Sisters. But, regardless, given its rarity I doubt it would do much tide-turning anyway.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?)

Not currently. FW has them requesting the Avenger Strike Fighter. Regardless, nothing stopping the SoB from having quad guns to deal with aircraft.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers

At the moment, yes. But those things won't necessarily win a war by themselves.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
and light infantry

I don't see the disadvantage in all of them having power armour. And if it's scouting-type stuff you're referring to, then Dominions have that covered.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed,same as repentia and arco-flagellants)

All of those are noted as being resistant to pain, due to their respective fanaticism. The Penitent Engine has a rule called "unstoppable" to represent this.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Exorcists are strong but have limited utility,

Scores of missiles raining down from the sky will ruin anything's day. They just need to be in range.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed.

But getting closer to the Sisters means getting closer to their guns, and Sisters excel at short-range firefights. Suffice to say, it won't be an easy approach. Even then, they aren't as helpless as you make out. The Sisters have their aforementioned melee units, and unlike on the tabletop, will still be able to shoot their guns whilst the Marines are up close.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
hell, they even have Centurions.

Not seeing your point. Those'll go down to a melta blast or two. Don't see what notable tactical advantage they confer.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Even if we are to put a SoB with a meltagun VS a Marine with a meltagun, the Marine is at a distinct advantage since he is faster (Making it easier to 'dodge' the beam), is tougher (greater chance of surviving a longer range shot), has autosenses linked to his weapon (Better knowledge of when exactly lethal range is reached), and so on and so forth.

Ah, but does he have... the Shield of Faith? That's one advantage that the Sisters have over the Marines, it appears. And on that note, Soroitas armour is indeed as protective as Marine armour, so they can take a similar amount of punishment. Also, Sisters can potentially use their AoFs to become better at shooting, so they can close the gap with the Marines somewhat.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Deus Ex Actsoffaith is good but can't make up for these disadvantages.

Of course they can. GW themselves once implied as much. And while I know that you view AoFs as unrealistic/silly, they're still a thing. Every SoB squad is going to be using them to be better at their given combat role. What they do is elevate the SoB above what is normally possible for them, so of course they're going to offset the advantage of the Marine enchancements.

Also, I notice that you're again assuming that the SoB are going about this in a standard fashion, fighting the Marines normally. To gain an edge over the Marines, they may opt for surgical strikes initially (and we have an example of this in the fluff) in order to weaken the Chapter. This would make the subsequent attack upon the Chapter as a whole easier.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

Or, if a battle becomes desperate for the SoB, Celetine could show up and slaughter several Marines!

I think it'd be easier if we kept the deus-ex machina heroes of our respective armies out of it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
but I'm just as biased as Hari (albeit in the other direction).

Heh, yep. Me too.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
So many game mechanics!

I know, I know. But I only referenced them to back up the fluff.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I would challenge you to a match to settle this (And Miko too) but Britain is distant and I am too busy to travel!

Ha, likewise. That'd be fun. We could maybe even do one houseruled game where our respective armies are as powerful as we like to think they are.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Also, mind you, Astartes are just as likely to make surgical strikes against the SoB. In fact, that and boarding actions are one of their specialities, which is not happy news for the incoming SoB fleet (Sure, meltas and flamers are good on ships, but Marines are kings in space)

Possibly. Again, not saying that the Marines won't put up a fight or have their own edges. All depends on how it kicks off, I guess.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A broken image link?

He was trying to link to this:

Protip: 1d4chan doesn't seem to allow linking images directly.

EDIT: oh, I can see it now. Weird,

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Oh, and now I imagine a 1v4 game of 4000 points VS 4x1000 points- me VS Miko, Troike, Sydney and Melissia. I'd get crushed, sure, my army is horribly uncompetitive and Dominioncheese worries me, but it's a cool thought.

Ha. Well, I don't yet have 1000 points of Sisters, so you might be at an advantage.
Also I am amused by the idea of a Dominion rush that huge.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I do not think it is slower than the marine recruitment rate.

It does take longer to produce a Battle Sister than a Space Marine, though.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok, now you are comparing apples and oranges. The AS range is desperately sparse because GW never cared to add anything to it. That does not mean that the Sisters do not have more thing at their disposal than what is currently mentioned. Everything else while just be retroactively added, just like Centurions and Stormwhatever and all that were.
Beside, the Ecclesiarchy is extremely rich. You can be pretty sure they have money to buy much better equipment than even Astartes have if they want to. GW never cared to represent that aspect of the fluff in the actual army list, but that does not invalidate it. The Ecclesiarchy is sitting on a pile on money. They can get everything money can buy.

I can agree with this. We probably only look under-equipped because or model range has gone un-updated for quite some time. If we're to go purely by fluff, then the Sisters can acquire pretty much any equipment they'd need.