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 Orblivion wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they serve two different organizations. The Sororitas are a militant part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Minotaurs answer to the High Lords of Terra.

Isn't the Ecclesiarch a High Lord of Terra anyway?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Isn't the Ecclesiarch a High Lord of Terra anyway?

Yes, but he might still play his cards for the Ecclesiarchy (just as the others might be suspected of favoring their own organisations). A dedicated marine Chapter is useful if the Ecclesiarch doesn't want to commit SoB, or some other High Lord has a problem with it. Politics.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they serve two different organizations. The Sororitas are a militant part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Minotaurs answer to the High Lords of Terra.

Isn't the Ecclesiarch a High Lord of Terra anyway?

Yes, and so is the Abbess Prioris of the Adepta Sororitas. That's why the politics are necessary.

Put another way, the Minotaurs can be deployed as long as seven of the twelve agree. It doesn't matter which seven. In order to deploy the Adepta Sororitas, you have to convince both the Abbess and the Ecclesiarch specifically.

 Stonerhino wrote:
You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years.

Bucharis forces were not IG. They were thugs enlisted by the cardinal.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

If those are one-hundred-strong ordo minoris, then they are pretty efficient, considering how they do not have any implant and are still able to kill almost twice their number in marines.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years.

Bucharis forces were not IG. They were thugs enlisted by the cardinal.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

If those are one-hundred-strong ordo minoris, then they are pretty efficient, considering how they do not have any implant and are still able to kill almost twice their number in marines.

They're only a hundred? Fair enough, I thought they were 1K or so.

Then amend my post to sixty orders.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
They're only a hundred?

No, they are anything between 1 up to 1000 (or maybe even more). They are not like Chapters, they have no specified number. That is because they are not an independent entity, more of an administrative division. If you want to defend a shrine that can be defended by ten sisters, you do not need to send in more than ten sisters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That is probably why they are sent.

No. They are sent because they are effective. AS codex states that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters, and that's right here in 6th Edition. They're not just sent because they happen to be able to put up a fight, they're sent because they've proven then can do it. Indeed, a WD that was actually about Rogue Marine Chapters said this:

Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter.

So it's not just SoB fluff bigging the SoB up, it's there in Space Marine fluff too.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

I know you'll probably grumble about it becuase it's old, but Citadel Journal #49 had a bit that dealt with how Sisters go about fighting Marine Chapters:

"Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. These Strike Forces are composed of the very best the Adepta Sororitas can field, and are equipped to an even higher standard than is usual within the Orders Militant. Led by a senior member of the Ordo Hereticus, the force can call upon the aid of the Imperial Navy, from whose troop transports they can deploy using the small numbers of drop pods each of the Orders Militant maintains exclusively for these operations."

So, it's not just a standard head-on attack as many people seem to assume, but a surgical strike on the Chapter's leadership, before presumably finishing off the rest. Also note the part that calls the Sisters possibly the only force other than Space Marines capable of successfully taking down a Chapter. Whilst old, this source seems to line up with the mindset that GW has maintained to the present, that Sisters are fully capable of fighting Marines.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Then amend my post to sixty orders.

Wait... So you're saying that you think it would take 6000 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines? Have to say, don't really agree with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No, they are anything between 1 up to 1000

Actually, AS codex puts the minimum at "barely a hundred". Don't think they'd have a Minor Order with just one Sister. Though that would be pretty funny. P

Ok then, between 8 to 1000 !

No, I did not say that it would take 6000 sisters to kill 1000 Marines (Neither did I say it doesn't, though, I won't dig into numbers) but I said that IF it does take that many, it would not be very effective. A mission can be successful, but that does not mean that it was effective. The sources you show say that they are one of the few who can succeed at all- but at what cost?

Mind you, the oldness of it still makes me bat 3-4 eyebrows at it. I am personally quite reluctant to take the old stuff as final word things, but it is interesting material, for sure. In fact, that very point is something that I suspect will prevent a consensus.

I pity you poor SoB players, actually- old stuff is almost all you have!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Ok then, between 8 to 1000 !

Heh. Now I'm tempted to paint up a Canoness and a single Battle Sister squad to run as allies, representing a very small but very enthusiastic Minor Order.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
No, I did not say that it would take 6000 sisters to kill 1000 Marines

Well, you did in that you said it would require 60 Orders of 100 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines. But okay,

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
but I said that IF it does take that many, it would not be very effective. A mission can be successful, but that does not mean that it was effective. The sources you show say that they are one of the few who can succeed at all- but at what cost?

You're assuming that the Sisters would take massive casualties whilst doing this. As the strikeforce article suggested, it doesn't seem to be a straight-up attack. Rather, the Sisters use a surgical strike to cripple the Chapter and then presumably go from there.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, the oldness of it still makes me bat 3-4 eyebrows at it. I am personally quite reluctant to take the old stuff as final word things, but it is interesting material, for sure.

But has GW said otherwise in the meantime? We've still got this statement that Sisters have wiped out entire Marine Chapters in 6th, so it would seem that GW is still sticking with the idea that Sisters can wipe out Marine Chapters. Therefore, it would seem that older fluff, back when the idea was explored in more depth, is still valid. I'd also not be surprised if other factions had had things explored back then that haven't really been touched upon since, so I doubt that the Sisters are the only ones who might need to reference older fluff to get elaboration on something.

 Troike wrote:

Well, you did in that you said it would require 60 Orders of 100 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines. But okay,

A hypothetical situation. Do not take it as some kind of statement, it was just an 'if' situation, and it's not one I am arguing for.

 Troike wrote:

You're assuming that the Sisters would take massive casualties whilst doing this. As the strikeforce article suggested, it doesn't seem to be a straight-up attack. Rather, the Sisters use a surgical strike to cripple the Chapter and then presumably go from there.

You're assuming they succeed. I'd assume at least a good few chapters to be smarter than to leave their high command vulnerable to an enemy that almost entirely lack snipers, drop pod equivalents, and so on and so forth. Who says a Celestian is superior to a Honour Guard?

 Troike wrote:
But has GW said otherwise in the meantime? We've still got this statement that Sisters have wiped out entire Marine Chapters in 6th, so it would seem that GW is still sticking with the idea that Sisters can wipe out Marine Chapters. Therefore, it would seem that older fluff, back when the idea was explored in more depth, is still valid. I'd also not be surprised if other factions had had things explored back then that haven't really been touched upon since, so I doubt that the Sisters are the only ones who might need to reference older fluff to get elaboration on something.

It's just my way of thinking- the older it is, the higher my eyebrow is raised. YMMV.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
No, I did not say that it would take 6000 sisters to kill 1000 Marines (Neither did I say it doesn't, though, I won't dig into numbers) but I said that IF it does take that many, it would not be very effective. A mission can be successful, but that does not mean that it was effective. The sources you show say that they are one of the few who can succeed at all- but at what cost?

Cost in lives can't be that high or the Sororitas would have ceased to exist long ago, given their ridiculously slow recruitments (it's faster to produce new Marines!)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, the oldness of it still makes me bat 3-4 eyebrows at it. I am personally quite reluctant to take the old stuff as final word things, but it is interesting material, for sure. In fact, that very point is something that I suspect will prevent a consensus.

Three to four eyebrows?! You are revealed, mutant! Burn!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I pity you poor SoB players, actually- old stuff is almost all you have!

Nope, nope, you don't get an opinion, you warp-spawned beast!

More seriously, the only way to go with this is to use the 'most recent example'.

Mind you, SM turning traitor is also very much a rare thing.

Not arguing that it is specifically 6000 (Or that SoB are alone, the Inquisition has many assets and Troike mentioned inquisitors) but you know.

And I gather 4000+ points of Chaos Marines, reach level 60 as Chaos Marines on Dawn of War II (Which I have like 1000 hours on), play as Chaos Marines a lot in Space Marine (I even have the Chaos DLC), but the mention of a third eyebrow is what gains me the ire of the Sisters?!

Now I imagine a bunch of Cult Chaos Marines dancing in front of SoB, but while this makes the SoB go all 'nope' 'saw nothing' 'coincidence', when a guy who has painted an extra eyebrow on his face appears they immediately reach for their meltaguns.

One of the earliest pieces of art shows a Sister shooting a Rainbow Warrior Marine dead.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Now I imagine a bunch of Cult Chaos Marines dancing in front of SoB, but while this makes the SoB go all 'nope' 'saw nothing' 'coincidence', when a guy who has painted an extra eyebrow on his face appears they immediately reach for their meltaguns.

Only rare in absolute terms, what is it, something like 15% of all Astartes chapters goes renegade these days? :p



Anyway, can you blame us? The good guys (lol) have names like 'Flesh Tearers', 'Malevolent' and 'Eviscerators'. How are we supposed to know that there's a loyalist under all those spikes and white armour?!

Psssht, Rainbow Warriors were hard enough! Think about it, it was a perfect name for a Slaanesh army!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You're assuming they succeed. I'd assume at least a good few chapters to be smarter than to leave their high command vulnerable to an enemy that almost entirely lack snipers, drop pod equivalents, and so on and so forth. Who says a Celestian is superior to a Honour Guard?

Didn't say the Sisters would always succeed, but apparently they've succeeded at it enough to be considered a go-to force to deal with a rogue Chapter. As for them actually fighting the Chapter's leadership, that source I mentioned actually notes that the Sisters have drop-pods. They were also actually able to field them in 2E. Additedly, even i might start to question that since, to my knowledge, it hasn't been referenced since, but it's there.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's just my way of thinking- the older it is, the higher my eyebrow is raised. YMMV.

I can understand where you're coming from. But, as I said, this sort of thing hasn't been touched upon for a while and hasn't really been contradicted. Also I think one has to cut the Sisters some degree of slack here, since their fluff hasn't had as much chance to grow and evolve since their 3E codex.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Mind you, SM turning traitor is also very much a rare thing.

Sure, but it's common enough that the Sisters alone have dealt with it multiple times, and are recognised as an effective response to it.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
(Or that SoB are alone, the Inquisition has many assets and Troike mentioned inquisitors) but you know.

While that source did indeed mention Inquisitors, it shoud be noted that it was back in 3E, when the Sisters were sharing a codex with the Inquisiton. Meanwhile, the other sources only mention the Sisters themselves in fighting Marine Chapters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And I gather 4000+ points of Chaos Marines, reach level 60 as Chaos Marines on Dawn of War II (Which I have like 1000 hours on), play as Chaos Marines a lot in Space Marine (I even have the Chaos DLC), but the mention of a third eyebrow is what gains me the ire of the Sisters?!

Well, if we were to accuse everyone with a Chaos army of heresy, we'd be overworked!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
One of the earliest pieces of art shows a Sister shooting a Rainbow Warrior Marine dead.

That was all the way back in RT. Apparently, it was also how the Sisters were first introduced.

 Troike wrote:
Heh. Now I'm tempted to paint up a Canoness and a single Battle Sister squad to run as allies, representing a very small but very enthusiastic Minor Order.

Well, rather let your Minor Order be commanded by a Sister Superior (or at least, a Sister Superior count-as). Have you ever tried a point-for-point comparison between a Chaos Lord and a Canoness ? It is hilarious.

 Troike wrote:
Well, you did in that you said it would require 60 Orders of 100 Sisters to kill 1000 Marines. But okay,

I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”.


[edit]Typed some message, went to play PoE, went back to publish message, felt like an idiot since the conversation had moved on while I was playing. Damn you Synergy ![/edit]

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”

Basically that, yes.

No sources who mention SoB purging chapters mention how many SoB actually are lost in such a conflict. SoB are few, for sure, but Marine traitors are rarer and the SoB can sustain massive losses in such operations and still exist.

Let's not assume too much yet.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”.

The SoB will certainly use everything they have if possible. They can't stand against the marines in close combat so overwhelming firepower has to be used. The classical minimum of 3-1 advantage in numbers for attacking, Imperial Navy support to drive off the marines' ships and provide orbital bombardment, every Sister capable of using special weapons equipped with a Meltagun. Once the marines are without fleet support or aircraft the SoB are just as mobile as them with Rhinos and Immolators. Then it's just numbers - one Sister isn't quite equal to a Marine but two squads can outshoot one, same as two tanks can outshoot one roughly equal.

I have no idea what the SoB consider acceptable losses for taking out a renegade Chapter, but if they're "commonly" used for it they must have a working method and a good idea of the cost.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, rather let your Minor Order be commanded by a Sister Superior (or at least, a Sister Superior count-as).

That wouldn't really work in-game, though. Somebody needs to be the HQ.

Anyway, I like Canonesses. Can't help it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am pretty sure he/she meant “We do know that Sisters are capable of killing whole chapters, but we do not know how many Sisters are required to kill 1000 marines. Maybe 10 Sisters are enough, in which case they are very effective, but maybe 100000 Sisters are needed, in which case they are not very effective. We would need to know more specific numbers to determine if they are effective or not”.

Sure, but as Miko mentioned, the SoB recruitment rate is somewhat slow. If they were losing massive amounts of Sisters each time, they'd suffer greatly for it, since they've also got their regular battles to fight as well. But they've been able to purge multiple Marine Chapters throughout their existence, and are viewed as one of the few forces that is capable of doing it. So I doubt that a few thousand of Sisters are slaughtered every time they need to cull a Chapter. I mean, the IG could just be sent to do it if drowning the Marines in bodies was considered the only way, but we can see that the Sisters are described as a preffered answer to a rogue Chapter, and Sisters are a much more precious and finite resource.

And, really, I think it's underestimating the SoB just a bit to think that they'd require numerical superiority to a comical degree to succeed at this. I could accept it being over somewhere over 1000 Sisters, sure, but I think it starts to get a bit silly somewhere around 3000. Also, again, that Citadel Journal source seemed to imply that their method for fighting Marine Chapters was to try to use surgical strikes first, so it wouldn't necessarily just be a standard war of attrition anyway.

Three to one is the traditionally desirable numerical odds for any attack is what I think Oxy meant.

I doubt that under 3000 would suffice.

The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?), have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?), SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers and light infantry, the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed, same as repentia and arco-flagellants), Exorcists are strong but have limited utility, and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed. Marines also have drop pods, hell, they even have Centurions.

Even if we are to put a SoB with a meltagun VS a Marine with a meltagun, the Marine is at a distinct advantage since he is faster (Making it easier to 'dodge' the beam), is tougher (greater chance of surviving a longer range shot), has autosenses linked to his weapon (Better knowledge of when exactly lethal range is reached), and so on and so forth.

The fight is not that fair at all. Deus Ex Actsoffaith is good but can't make up for these disadvantages.

Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I doubt that under 3000 would suffice.

The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?), have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?), SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers and light infantry, the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed, same as repentia and arco-flagellants), Exorcists are strong but have limited utility, and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed. Marines also have drop pods, hell, they even have Centurions.

Even if we are to put a SoB with a meltagun VS a Marine with a meltagun, the Marine is at a distinct advantage since he is faster (Making it easier to 'dodge' the beam), is tougher (greater chance of surviving a longer range shot), has autosenses linked to his weapon (Better knowledge of when exactly lethal range is reached), and so on and so forth.

The fight is not that fair at all. Deus Ex Actsoffaith is good but can't make up for these disadvantages.

Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

Are you comparing things on the tabletop to fluff? That's a bad idea in general because it ignores alot of things when it comes down to it.

Nope, I am not using gameplay stats, etc.

The closest is perhaps the SoB lack of Art Armour, but do they have that in lore?

Anyone that is not Celestine that is.

Actually, on the tabletop, it's a lot closer than Hari suggests based on the fluff (A meltagun has less chance of killing a Sororitas than it does a Marine, since both are BS4, wounded on 2+, ignoring armour... but the Sororitas has a 6++).

In lore the Sororitas equivalent to Artificer Armour is something called an 'Aspiriate Cloak' - presumably a knock-off of the Cloak of St. Aspira relic, which used to improve the armour save by 1 (it does something completely different in the new book).

Sororitas gear is of the same quality as Marine gear, but they do lack several options - Missile Launchers, for example, are excellent anti-MEq weapons that the Astartes can bring to bear against the Sisters. This, in part, is why Sororitas reserve their Dominica-pattern Drop Pods for use against renegade Astartes chapters - they don't have an infinite supply of them to spam against every enemy of the Imperium, but against Marines they let them get into melta and flamer range, negating the Marines' advantage in long-range firepower.

Personally, I think it's closer to two Sisters needed per Astartes, but I'm just as biased as Hari (albeit in the other direction).

Not to mention Plasma Cannons and Plasma Guns, Miko.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, if we went with my headcanon rather than some mere healthy bias, it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

<WARNING - HEADCANON HERESY INCOMING>



Sorry. Yes, they are 9' in my headcanon.

Ooh, now the gauntlet has been thrown down!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Marines have much better equipment (By virtue of having more different wargear for various situations), have bigger guns (YMMV on this one though), have better quality wargear (Where is your artificier armour?),

I feel I should highlight that there's fluff stating that Sisters are "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter". Also, the AS codex notes that they recieve the best equipment the Imperium can offer. So the fluff doesn't seem to agree that the equipment of Marines is "much" better. Anyway, moving on to your specific points, the Sororitas bolter doesn't seem to be significantly less effective than the Marine bolter, being reffered to as one of the best patterns of bolters and dealing the same damage on the TT (I know the tabletop can be a bit iffy, but here I'm using it in combination with the fluff). Artifacer armour? The Ecclesiarchy is extremely rich, and could quite concievably have some artifacer armour for the Sisters. But, regardless, given its rarity I doubt it would do much tide-turning anyway.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
have better aircraft (Arguably- does the SoB actually have any real aircraft on their own or will they have to poke the navy?)

Not currently. FW has them requesting the Avenger Strike Fighter. Regardless, nothing stopping the SoB from having quad guns to deal with aircraft.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
SoB completely lack anti-infantry artillery, snipers

At the moment, yes. But those things won't necessarily win a war by themselves.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
and light infantry

I don't see the disadvantage in all of them having power armour. And if it's scouting-type stuff you're referring to, then Dominions have that covered.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
the Penitent Engines are jokes (The moment one is deployed it's going to be shot, the pilot is 100% exposed,same as repentia and arco-flagellants)

All of those are noted as being resistant to pain, due to their respective fanaticism. The Penitent Engine has a rule called "unstoppable" to represent this.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Exorcists are strong but have limited utility,

Scores of missiles raining down from the sky will ruin anything's day. They just need to be in range.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
and if the battle ever reaches melee, SoB are very very outclassed.

But getting closer to the Sisters means getting closer to their guns, and Sisters excel at short-range firefights. Suffice to say, it won't be an easy approach. Even then, they aren't as helpless as you make out. The Sisters have their aforementioned melee units, and unlike on the tabletop, will still be able to shoot their guns whilst the Marines are up close.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
hell, they even have Centurions.

Not seeing your point. Those'll go down to a melta blast or two. Don't see what notable tactical advantage they confer.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Even if we are to put a SoB with a meltagun VS a Marine with a meltagun, the Marine is at a distinct advantage since he is faster (Making it easier to 'dodge' the beam), is tougher (greater chance of surviving a longer range shot), has autosenses linked to his weapon (Better knowledge of when exactly lethal range is reached), and so on and so forth.

Ah, but does he have... the Shield of Faith? That's one advantage that the Sisters have over the Marines, it appears. And on that note, Soroitas armour is indeed as protective as Marine armour, so they can take a similar amount of punishment. Also, Sisters can potentially use their AoFs to become better at shooting, so they can close the gap with the Marines somewhat.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Deus Ex Actsoffaith is good but can't make up for these disadvantages.

Of course they can. GW themselves once implied as much. And while I know that you view AoFs as unrealistic/silly, they're still a thing. Every SoB squad is going to be using them to be better at their given combat role. What they do is elevate the SoB above what is normally possible for them, so of course they're going to offset the advantage of the Marine enchancements.

Also, I notice that you're again assuming that the SoB are going about this in a standard fashion, fighting the Marines normally. To gain an edge over the Marines, they may opt for surgical strikes initially (and we have an example of this in the fluff) in order to weaken the Chapter. This would make the subsequent attack upon the Chapter as a whole easier.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hell, if it is a SW-like fight where the Marines are not actually corrupted, then the LOTD maybe shows up!

Or, if a battle becomes desperate for the SoB, Celetine could show up and slaughter several Marines!

I think it'd be easier if we kept the deus-ex machina heroes of our respective armies out of it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
but I'm just as biased as Hari (albeit in the other direction).

Heh, yep. Me too.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
it'd be closer to 10 Sisters per Marine. They are but humans after all.

So many game mechanics!

Come at me, Troike. That last face made me lol.

I would challenge you to a match to settle this (And Miko too) but Britain is distant and I am too busy to travel! Imperial citizens must be sacrificed, skulls must be taken and all that.

Also, mind you, Astartes are just as likely to make surgical strikes against the SoB. In fact, that and boarding actions are one of their specialities, which is not happy news for the incoming SoB fleet (Sure, meltas and flamers are good on ships, but Marines are kings in space)

 Troike wrote:

Spoiler:

It's more like this: