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While its only speculation at this point, many sources suggest stormtroopers will be redone with the upcoming IG update. What do you expect to see in regards to Stormtroopers?

I'm hoping at bare minimum:

Fair point reduction
Increased leadership

Would love to see:

Additional special weapons per squad
Taken as a troop choice under certain conditions

In my dreams:

Storm the objective Stormtrooper special rule from apocalypse in normal 40k games lol

What are your expectations & or wishes for Stormtroopers?

Obviously a readjustment of their point cost. Leadership I can take it or leave it I think it’s fair as is. Really the only thing I want changed is the gear. Either give the hotshot 24 inch range or increase its strength to 4. Their just are way too many things out there right now that can chew through 4+ armor so be kind and give us back some range on it. If not then it should be strength 4 this way even if we hit a standard marine it’s only a 50/50 to wound.

My expectations?

Nothing. I fully expect nothing to be done to stormies.

What I'd like?

A points reduction, and role that isn't overshadowed by vets.

I expect a points cost decrease of 2-3 points, and at a stretch a tidy rewrite of their deployment options, losing us more than we had.

If they could re-roll the wounds on their hot-shots somehow, maybe on the first time they fire as they aim for weak points, they'd be more effective at standing their ground and justifying their exorbitant cost.

We really have no clue as to exactly what GW will do.

What *I* would like to see is something to make them fit the archetypal "Stormtrooper" battlefield role, elite infantry that seize enemy positions through surprise shock assault and lots of short ranged automatic weaponry..

A bump in Ld and WS (these are after all the best non-astartes troops out there), make Valks an option as a dedicated transport, drop the "special operations" thing to just give them Scout/DS/Infiltrate as normal, and ideally cut down in points significantly unless they change the gun to S4 and Assault 2 , otherwise drop them to like 11pts each and make the gun S3 AP5 Assault 3 (which much better fits the archetypal "Stormtrooper" role in the first place).

The biggest problem is that they're set up as a MEQ hunter unit, but the AP3 is largely wasted between the gun being S3 with only an 18" range and usually only gets 1 shot with the Rapid Fire type, and leaves no ability to make use of that pistol/CCW combo to follow up a volley with a charge. They just do not have the statline to make that AP3 consistently useful, so lets just get rid of it instead of paying the hideous AP3 tax that kills the usefulness of so many units (stormtroopers, vespid, thousand sons, etc)

I'd also like to see them be able to be taken as troops.

I would very much like to see an option to take them as troops.

Valks as dedicated transports would be nice.

A change to their hellgun would be appreciated. AP 3 is just unnecessary and makes no one very happy. Cheaper with more special weapons would be great. Perhaps +1 Str for the drop in range.

Storm troopers are a tough unit to get perfect. We want them to be awesome and we want to field a lot of the pretty models...If they give us what we want we would roll over every army turn 2 when 60 marbos show up.

What I'd like to see happen:

- Drop to 14 ppm, putting them (like they were before) at the 'current' cost of a tactical marine.
- Keep the AP3 gun (it's the main reason I take them, having a whole squad that ignored almost all saves is awesome)
- Maybe a change to Assault 2 18", but then I think the cost would have to go up.
- Keep the Special Operations.
- Some kind of ability for Stormtrooper Sgts to issue an order to the squad, as they traditionally end up outside of normal orders range. If they made it so FRFSRF applied to Hotshot Lasguns, only from ST sgts, then that would be epic.

Scoring elites and point reduction. But we all know only one will happen.

 gnoise wrote:
Scoring elites and point reduction.

scoring elites is actually genius. that would go extremely well with the "storming objectives" role in the fluff, and also is a less powerful and exploitable way of doing that compared to making them troops choice with some special character or such.

and yeah, points reduction is definitely needed, and i think going with the current trend, they will at least get this reduction.

I would love to see increase in Ld and stubborn. These are supposed to be the best. They should have better stats than the penal legion. A points reduction as well.

What I want

Hellgun with 3 firing modes
Hotshot - str 4 ap 3 18" Rapidfire
Normal - str 4 ap - 24" assault 2
Longshot Str - ap - 30" Rapidfire, sniper, Gets hot
3 special weapons/heavy weapons per squad,

Infiltrate and deep strike by default


14-ppm

What is probably going to happen
Small Point reduction.

There's a reason this would never happen. Such a massive upgrade would make stormtroopers far too expensive to bother taking.

 Ailaros wrote:
There's a reason this would never happen. Such a massive upgrade would make stormtroopers far too expensive to bother taking.

What's the point in taking them if point for point they are going to be worse than reg guardsmen or vets in the new dex?

Giving them a version of specialist ammo and an extra special weapon would put them on par with elite choices that other armies can take. (Along with a point reduction)

I would just like to see inquisitorial stormtroopers again ... oh wait I have BS 3 acolytes

 Whereswaldo wrote:
I would just like to see inquisitorial stormtroopers again ... oh wait I have BS 3 acolytes

I did bang my head against a wall for a bit when I saw the codex and saw no Stromtroopers. Just baffles my mind.

Ninjacommando wrote:What's the point in taking them if point for point they are going to be worse than reg guardsmen or vets in the new dex?

Stormtroopers aren't worse per point than guardsmen now, so unless they make regular guardsman cheaper, or they make them better, then I don't see why this would be an issue.

 Ailaros wrote:

Ninjacommando wrote:What's the point in taking them if point for point they are going to be worse than reg guardsmen or vets in the new dex?

Stormtroopers aren't worse per point than guardsmen now, so unless they make regular guardsman cheaper, or they make them better, then I don't see why this would be an issue.

If this were true they'd be used a whole lot more. While I would agree with the notion that a straight point-for-point comparison isn't always valid, the ST's have tons of issues here.

They aren't notably harder to kill, they can't score, their guns are shorter ranged, they flee just as often, they're just better enough in CC to ensure that instead of being wiped and getting to shoot at the enemy unit next turn they may stick around for the enemy to kill them off in your own assault phase (very bad), and cost more than 300% as much. In return they get an AP on their guns that they can't make effective use of, increased resistance to small arms fire, and some alternate deployment methods.

Regular guardsmen don't get armor saves against Ap5 weapons, don't have BS4, and can't pinpoint deepstrike. They also don't get "free" krak grenades or access to infiltration or scouts.

Stormtroopers are just fine as is. The only problem is that they're an elites choice, so you have to judge them by a standard other than just turn-one killing power. And you have a bunch of mandatory upgrades that not everyone can make use of, so they feel like an unnecessary cost increaser, but that's the fault of the player, not the unit.

Difficult to use is not a synonym for overcosted.

 Ailaros wrote:
Regular guardsmen don't get armor saves against Ap5 weapons, don't have BS4, and can't pinpoint deepstrike. They also don't get "free" krak grenades or access to infiltration or scouts.

Right, but the question is how relevant a lot of it is. The difference between a 4+sv and a 5+sv is irrelevant against the majority of heavy weapons in the game, and it still not like they're particularly hardy, taking a round of bolter rapid-fire will still leave a unit of ST's crippled and likely ineffective (admittedly better than completely dead, but they still don't be in good shape). BS4 is nice, but you can get BS4 troops able to take 3 special weapons for less than half the cost and BS4 troops able to take special weapons with 4+sv's for nearly 40% less. Pinpoint deep strike is nice in theory, but in practice, due to the nature of the ST's weaponry and options, is primarily used for suicide-tank hunting, their weaponry and staying power precluding most other uses and typically quickly leading the ST's to their graves. Infiltration and Scouts are similarly limited in utility given the fragility of the unit and its lack of effective weaponry. Kraks, while nice, are also available for free on Vets and are 1ppm on basic Guardsmen.

Even compared with an SM Tac squad, a currently much maligned unit and one the ST's seem designed to engage (and thus should be a good matchup), they don't compare favorably. A volley of fire from a squad of 10 ST's will kill as many Marines as a volley of bolter fire will inflict on the ST's, but the ST's are more expensive and need to be at 9" to be most effective and their target out of cover, while the Tac squad has a greater effective range and won't care about the presence of cover, and will handily beat the ST's in close combat (which they'll probably elect to engage in at those ranges), while the SM's can also get very safe Deep Strike access (along with accompanying LoS blocking and an extra stormbolter) at a cost increase that puts them only 1ppm more than the ST's.

Stormtroopers are just fine as is.

And yet they are continually noted as one of the problem units of the IG codex in desperate need of help, I can't recall a single tournament list that has featured them, and this certainly isn't the first thread about how to make ST's useful. One will notice about how in a DKoK Assault Brigade, where they get made Troops, are immune to Fear and 25% morale tests from shooting, sport WS4 and are 12ppm, nobody in particular seems particularly disturbed by the prospect of an army of AP3 troops.

The only problem is that they're an elites choice, so you have to judge them by a standard other than just turn-one killing power.

That's the problem, as T3 4+sv units dependent on short ranged weaponry, and most effective at well within assault ranges, their existence is defined by one-turn killing power, because frequently they just won't be around the next turn.

And you have a bunch of mandatory upgrades that not everyone can make use of, so they feel like an unnecessary cost increaser, but that's the fault of the player, not the unit.

For some units that's true. However not in this case, the unit simply does not have the statline to make effective use of those upgrades relative to their investment.

Difficult to use is not a synonym for overcosted.

Right, but in this case they're both. They suffer the same problems that Vespid and Thousand Sons do (and Dark Reapers did), they pay out the nose for that AP3 to the extent that they're just too expensive relative to what they're normally engaging and have a very narrow range of any effectiveness at all.

Vaktathi wrote:The difference between a 4+sv and a 5+sv is irrelevant against the majority of heavy weapons in the game

But it makes a big difference against most of the weapons on the table. A lascannon may be better than Ap4, but it's going to be surrounded by 9 other models with Ap5 weapons or worse. And it works against most weapons in close combat as well.

8 bolters shooting regular guardsmen kills 7, but only kills 3 or 4 stormtroopers, that's the difference between a squad that's actually broken, and one that isn't.

Furthermore, the existence of Ap4 weapons doesn't invalidate carapace armor any more than the existence of Ap3 and better weapons makes power armor irrelevant.

Finally, I would note, that if you have the ability to pinpoint deepstrike, and you're putting them somewhere that they will get killed right away, and their survivability is important, then you're deepstriking them in the wrong place. Once again, this is a problem with the player, not the unit.

Vaktathi wrote: BS4 is nice, but you can get BS4 troops able to take 3 special weapons for less than half the cost and BS4 troops able to take special weapons with 4+sv's for nearly 40% less.

That can't deepstrike. Much less more accurately. Or any of the other things stormtroopers can do.

Once again, you're looking at just per-turn killing power, which ALWAYS makes elites choices look bad, stormtroopers being no exception.

If you can't figure out how to use their special mobility, then yeah, you're paying points for something you're not getting any use of, and so it feels like you're overpaying.

Once again, though, this is the fault of the player, not the unit.

Vaktathi wrote:Pinpoint deep strike is nice in theory, but in practice, due to the nature of the ST's weaponry and options, is primarily used for suicide-tank hunting,

That's one way to use them, but not the only way. It's a pretty good way, though, I'd note. Especially compared to those supposedly better veterans who need to drive or walk into range and hope they make it there.

But if you're choosing to infiltrate or scout them in such a way that they're just getting killed right away, then you're infiltrating or scouting wrong. Of course you don't just throw them out in front of your lines and hope your opponent doesn't just focus them down. Stormtroopers aren't able to handle that level of poor play.

But once again, this is a problem with the player, not with the unit.

Vaktathi wrote:And yet they are continually noted as one of the problem units of the IG codex in desperate need of help, I can't recall a single tournament list that has featured them, and this certainly isn't the first thread about how to make ST's useful.

Ad populum.

Expectation? Very little changes. I dont have any faith in GW's main dev team to balance UP units and mitigate OP units after that nid release.

My hope: 15PPM
2/5 special weapons
LD9

I'm going to agree with Ailaros here, Stormtroopers are great units that do require a subtly and tactics to use. The rest of the IG codex is largely 'stand and shoot' type units, Stormtroopers are not. That does not invalidate them. In fact, their vastly superior mobility is part of why they are so useful, as they can strike anywhere you choose with great precision.

By using multiple squads, you can open up a second front that the enemy must either deal with (saving your troops and other gunline elements) or ignore (letting them kill more valuable targets. Against Tau and Eldar, they are amazing as they would on 4s with no saves, and unlike vets (without carapace) have a chance to survive the return fire. So often, the 4+ is the difference between a save and no save, so it doubles survivability over most Guard units and is well worth paying for. The ability to deliver special weapons accurately is something not many IG units can do.

I will concede that they do require a significant investment (I usually go for 3 full squads) to be useful outside of a suicide role, but when used correctly they can turn the tide of a game.

 Ailaros wrote:

But it makes a big difference against most of the weapons on the table. A lascannon may be better than Ap4, but it's going to be surrounded by 9 other models with Ap5 weapons or worse. And it works against most weapons in close combat as well.

If you're talking Lascannons, sure. If we're talking Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, etc the equation changes.

8 bolters shooting regular guardsmen kills 7, but only kills 3 or 4 stormtroopers, that's the difference between a squad that's actually broken, and one that isn't.

It's still a morale test and possibly the two special weapons guys, in which case the utility of the unit has just collapsed.

Furthermore, the existence of Ap4 weapons doesn't invalidate carapace armor any more than the existence of Ap3 and better weapons makes power armor irrelevant.

AP4 weapons are however much more common, much more frequently multi-shot (most AP3 weapons are typically single shot or are dedicated template platforms), much more frequently appear in multiples, and much more frequently ignore cover. Tanks rolling around with multiple, long range, multi-shot AP4 guns that wound T3 units on a 3+ , ad secondary weaponry, are commonplace. Tanks running around multiple, long range, multishot AP3 guns as secondary weaponry are not, typically it's just Leman Russ tanks with plasma cannon sponsons or DE Ravagers, one is a ~200pt+ tank the other dies to whiffle bats.

Finally, I would note, that if you have the ability to pinpoint deepstrike, and you're putting them somewhere that they will get killed right away, and their survivability is important, then you're deepstriking them in the wrong place. Once again, this is a problem with the player, not the unit.

or, as is common in this game and if you're playing against a half-way competent opponent, anywhere you'd put them that's useful is somewhere they will face counterattack (and likely, annihilation). It's one thing to DS a T4 3+sv Ld9 ATSKNF or Ld10 unit somewhere and expect it to survive, it's another to put a T3 4+sv Ld8 unit somewhere and expect it to survive.

That can't deepstrike. Much less more accurately. Or any of the other things stormtroopers can do.

Right, but they can take a transport to get where they need to be and end up roughly the same price (depending on kit) and have two heavy weapons to boot.

I'm also not arguing the DS can't be useful, but rather that they can't make effective, consistent use of it outside of a role that wastes what they pay a lot of points for (DS melta-tank hunting where their AP3 guns serve no purpose).

Once again, you're looking at just per-turn killing power, which ALWAYS makes elites choices look bad, stormtroopers being no exception.

And again, they'll usually only live (or only be effective) for one turn. If you have them sitting there in a battle line they'll lack the range and volume to contribute, if you put them where they are at their most effective, they're also at where they're most easily killed, and they just don't put out the hurt to justify such an investment for such a brief existence, the conditions under which they provide the greatest amount of utility are highly conditional and even then can still prove ineffective.

For instance, drop them out against a MEQ unit in the open at optimal range (lets say a basic SM tac squad with no special/heavy weapons or CC upgrades), go to town with plasma guns and AP3 lasguns, and they'll kill half a MEQ squad. If that meq squad turns around and bolt-pistols the ST's and follows it up with an assault, the remaining MEQ's will likely win the assault, in which case the ST's either break and are swept (and you've traded an entire unit to merely cripple another) or they stick around another turn stuck in CC and likely lose the next round of combat on your turn (which is bad juju as you miss the chance to shoot at the MEQ unit again and your ST's still die). If you drop them further away they risk being out of range or halving their firepower and not doing much at all.

That's one way to use them, but not the only way. It's a pretty good way, though, I'd note. Especially compared to those supposedly better veterans who need to drive or walk into range and hope they make it there.

Right, and that's pretty much the only way you ever see them used.

But if you're choosing to infiltrate or scout them in such a way that they're just getting killed right away, then you're infiltrating or scouting wrong.

I'm not saying they'll get killed right away, I'm saying by the time they're in position to effectively use their weapons (melta range, rapid fire, etc) they're usually going to die right away against a half-way competent opponent.


TL;DR:

Their superior deployment options (I don't like the term "mobility" here as once on the board they footslog like anything else) are largely wasted by their poor damage output and poor survivability (better than 5+sv putz guardsmen, but still very fragile as a general 40k unit) and their AP3 is wasted by their poor range and weapon Strength.

The unit pays out the nose for both of these abilities that they cannot use effectively.

I'm just hoping they aren't nerfed even further! Some units in the Tyranid codex faced a nerf or a price increased that wasn't at all warranted. I hope that Storm Troopers do not suffer a similar fate. If they were to stay the same I would breathe a sigh of relief, if they were to get better I would jump for joy.

Lets not get our hopes up.

Stormtroopers, as noted before, have the major issue of needing to get into assault range before doing significant damage. What seems to be the issue with them is that they are stated like a shooting unit but they have rules to get them into close combat. T3 models have no business trying to get close to the enemy as a small elite unit.

Perhaps a fix for the Stormtroopers would be to either increase the range on their weapons or give them more special weapons so that they are better equipped for the task. If hellguns were S: 3 AP 3 Assault 2 36" this would allow them more flexibility in terms of deployment. If they were able to equip three or four flame throwers that would allow them to perform their "Assault" role better.

A way to get invuln saves would help too.

This may be a little OT but it would be pretty cool if they would introduce specialists you can take in your squad like sappers, medics or engineers. That way you can equip your Stormtrooper squads to perform a specific job.