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Hey all, looking for some advice on how to make the most out of the current set of models I own and what I should consider buying in the future. I'm not going to be playing competitively (though maybe someday) but would still like to field a decent list. I have the following:

10 Deathwing Terminators (from Dark Vengeance)
20 Tactical Marines, two with plasma cannon, two with heavy bolter (from Dark Vengeance)
5 Assault Marines (jump packs, two plasma pistols, power fist on sergeant)
10 Bikes (from Dark Vengeance)
1 Predator (what should my optimal loadout be?)
1 Rhino
1 Razorback (again, optimal loadout?)
2 Landspeeders
1 Librarian
1 Chapter Master
1 Seraphicus, Interrogator-Chaplain

Is this even close to being viable, or do I need considerably more? Appreciate the feedback!

Well, to be able to advise on that we need to know the desired point value you intent to play at.

As for your tacticals, don't DV have 10 tacticals with 1 plasma cannon and 1 plasma gun?
How did you end up with 2 HB and 2 plasma cannons? you sure that's what you got and you didn't mix names?
If they ARE plasma gun and plasma cannon, gunning two groups of 10 just like that would be fine.

Termies-I assume between the 10 you got 2 assault cannons, and 2 got chainfists. luckly chainfists are easy to remove if so desired and turn into power fists.
Also, 2 of them are probably sword-wielding Sargents.
Again, the optimal setup is probably the one seen in DV.
Sargent, chainfist dude, assault cannon dude and 2 chumps

Assault marines...dont bother, they dont work in DA armies. MAYBE in BA armies, or in some FW chapter tactics, but not in DA.


The libby is probably the best HQ choice of the lot, level 2 mastry with either termi armor or power field generator and a transport is likely to work for the best.
The company master (there is no "chapter master" unit for DA. Azreal is the master.) and Seraphicus are not too impressive, and can be safely ignored.


As for the razorback, speeders and predator, i cant help much.

Assault marines...dont bother, they dont work in DA armies. MAYBE in BA armies, or in some FW chapter tactics, but not in DA.

Assault Marines are actually pretty amazing in DA--just not wearing their packs. Drop the packs for a free Drop Pod and add two flamers to the unit. At 95 points, it is a steal.

I'm not sure "amazing" is the word I'd use. "Not crap" is more like it.

I'm not sure with builds for DA exist outside Deathwing or Ravenwing, and it doesn't look like you have enough models for either of those.

This is my DA list that works pretty well for me, but ymmv. It includes allies and is 1850 pts.

Azzy (your "chapter master")
libby on a bike (lvl 2)
DW - 4 w/shields including the sarge and one assault cannon
RW - 2 x bikers w/meltas and the sarge
GW - 10 marines, missile launcher, plasma gun, combi-plas, and rhino
whirlwinds x 2

-imperial fist allies-
biker capt w/storm shield, AA, and PF
5 man marine squad w/plasma, combi-plas, and rhino (two of these units, one with plasma, one with melta)
3 x attack bikes w/heavy bolters
dev squad w/4 x lascannons

aegis w/quad gun

It's easy to run and stupidly effective. I realize you don't have these models, but everything is easy to make from bits except the three tanks.

Azzy joins either the DW or devs as needed. He makes the DW and RW scoring and gives all DA on the table leadership 10. The biker capt runs around with the libby and RW hit-and-running into and out of combat. The whirlwinds take out pathfinders and are great at pinning marine units. Plus everyone thinks they suck so they never get shot at. The devs have tank hunter so destroy any armor, including incoming fliers by having them man the quad gun. The DW can either camp an objective or deepstrike off the RW as another disruption unit. With grav weapons being the new flavor of the month, I've found playing DW without shields is pointless. Put them w/Azz and choose his feel no pain tactic, then watch the other guy drop an obscene amount of shots into them trying to kill them. The bolter bikes re-roll ones to hit and are great at harrassing heavy weapon units, tying things up, or contesting objectives during the last turn. Combat squad your GW to have the plasma advance and the missile to camp your home objective. The IF squads go forward to grab objectives or shoot as needed, only getting out of the rhinos when they're either destroyed or you've reached turn 5.

As far as running DA on their own, even RW or DW, good luck. As much as I love the DA, there are just way too many gapping holes in the codex.

Don't you have problems with your heavy weapons being focused down?

I'm not sure "amazing" is the word I'd use. "Not crap" is more like it.

They are essentially 10 point Marines. What is bad about that?

I'm not sure with builds for DA exist outside Deathwing or Ravenwing, and it doesn't look like you have enough models for either of those.

Deathwing is a non-option for anyone who wants even a glimmer of hope of winning games regularly in any kind of competitive sense. Ravenwing aren't quite as bad as they are made out to be, but White Scars are better.

That being said, DA has some interesting toys. Cheap, fearless Divination Librarians, Power Field Generators, Rad Grenade Launchers, and the Banner of Devastation are all quirky and usable. How to fit these into an otherwise good list is challenging though.

I didn't say it was bad. I just said it wasn't "amazing". That pretty much summarizes C:SM and the units they share with DA: not bad, but not good. Except for the ones that ARE bad.

I didn't say it was bad. I just said it wasn't "amazing". That pretty much summarizes C:SM and the units they share with DA: not bad, but not good. Except for the ones that ARE bad.

Fair enough. Though, I would argue that if Marines were consistently 10 ppm, they would be amazing.

10 ppm tac marines would STILL be gunned down bitches against Taudar. That's how bad it is right now I think. The whole world is distorted when you are paying double digit prices for models with little to no offense. You MIGHT be able to use "blue tide" like Ork green tide at that price point. The fact that this is even in question is absurd.

Don't you have problems with your heavy weapons being focused down?

It depends on the army I'm playing against. For example, 48" lascannons outrange Tau except for their seeker missiles and are awesome at one-shotting broadsides and even wearing down tank-commanders. If I'm worried about losing the devs, I have Azzy join them and tank shots. He is fearless, has 4W, a 2+/4++ and gives 4++ to everyone in his squad and he always has at least a 6+ FnP. The only thing you really have to watch out for are S8+ AP2 shots and those usually go at your tanks. I have yet to lose a point for warlord.

As far as Tau, the RW give the capt scout so they can move up to midfield before the game starts. If you have first turn you drop the DW right beside them and then advance both, forcing your opponent to choose which unit to shoot at. Scouting Azzy up and attaching him to the DW after they drop is also an option. If you go second, scout the capt and RW up (hopefully out of sight) and you should be able to pull of the first turn charge; drop the DW as you like or leave them out, your choice.

Deathwing is a non-option for anyone who wants even a glimmer of hope of winning games regularly in any kind of competitive sense.

Unfortunately this is all too true. I ran DW in 5th ed with the old codex and they were awesome. 6th ed killed the null deployment and with the new codex they just become too expensive, particularly Belial (even though he got better). The only time I run DW now is as one squad and only with Azzy or Belial in the primary detachment so they score. I would run them as allies but per the new(er) dex, DW only score as a primary detachment.

March10K's mechanised Deathwing list is about the only way I'd run a predominantly DW army these days --

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271757-1850-deathwing/

(check out the later iteration though, which drops a DW knight or two for a biker librarian with PFG)

I'm reading through the Dark Angels codex and the only things that I see that really make sense are the Librarian, Tactical Squads, and Devastator Squads.

But it seems to me that is the core of the army and could make sense as an allied detachment. I think anything on a Devastator Squad would make sense. The Librarians can get Prescience for a pittance, and a Devastator Squad with 4 Lascannons or Plasma Cannons with rerolls and one model at BS5 for a reasonable, competitive cost sounds pretty powerful.

You could even run 5 Devastators with 4 Multi-Meltas and put them in a drop pod for a reasonable price. That's 4 multi-meltas as compared to the usual Combi-Melta sterngaurd that people run and you could throw in a Librarian for rerolls if you wanted. One model would even get BS5. So 1 BS5 model and 3 BS4 multimeltas with rerolls.

And if you needed anything else, DA are Space Marines and hence are battle brothers with every other MEQ codex out there. That seems like the obvious choice.

Sorry about leaving out the points - it's pretty crucial, haha. I'm thinking around 1500-2000, which is about what I have, though I'm open to buying what I need to make it semi-competitive. Does it make sense to field high-value models like Dreadnoughts/Land Raiders in the current meta? My FLGS has a wide array of armies, so something powerful that has a decent chance against most armies would be ideal. Possibly:

1 Landraider
1 Predator w/ Lascannon, Heavy Bolter sponsons
1 Dread w/ Lascannon, claw

2 Tac Squads
1 Librarian w/ Command Squad

10 Terminators

1 Assault Squad
2 Bike Squads of five

Ravenwing lists are the most competitive builds that DA can put out, and are still viable, even beating whitescars in some respects.

If you aren't going for a full RW list, then simply consider your best options in the Codex. These would be:

Black knights (& RW command squads)
Cheap Divination Librarians
Power Field Generator
Standard of devastation

If you aren't using these units, then it might be a better idea to switch Codices, as Codex Space marines gives you almost all the same options and more, and also gives you a choice of different chapter tactics, instead of being stuck with stubborn.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Ravenwing lists are the most competitive builds that DA can put out, and are still viable, even beating whitescars in some respects.

If you aren't going for a full RW list, then simply consider your best options in the Codex. These would be:

Black knights (& RW command squads)
Cheap Divination Librarians
Power Field Generator
Standard of devastation

If you aren't using these units, then it might be a better idea to switch Codices, as Codex Space marines gives you almost all the same options and more, and also gives you a choice of different chapter tactics, instead of being stuck with stubborn.

Thanks for the reply. I just checked out your DA RW list and it's quite impressive - that's a hell of a lot of bikes. Do you recommend the DV bikes, being as cheap as they are? I also don't have access to my DA Codex right at the moment, so do you mind explaining why Black Knights are so good?

Black Knights have twin-linked plasma-guns. Need we say more? Turns out we do, in fact, because they have other tricks that make them very deadly.

1 in every 3 guys can be given a Ravenwing Grenade launcher for free. You lose some shooting power (not much because you can still rapid fire Krak grenades), but gain utility for the squad. The more absurd one of the two specialty 'nades is just S3 AP- blast, but just by HITTING (doesn't need to even cause a wound!) it reduces the toughness of the squad it hits by 1. Mind you, thats for hitting so you roll against T3 with your plasma guns. It means you're instant-death against any multi-wound model that was previously T4.

Instant-death against non-biker Marine HQs? Check. Instant death against Ork Nobs? Check. Instant death against non-Nurgle Obliterators? Check. Instant death against Crisis and Broadside Battlesuits? Check. Pretty nasty.

The grenadier also has a Stasis Bomb which doesn't inflict damage, but reduces WS and Initiative of the unit it hits by 1. Pretty solid against a fair number of things you'd want to ram. Seeing as how all RW bikers have hit and run, it's pretty safe to jam your black knights into assaults. They are quite deadly in assault, too, so hey that works out fine. They're effectively getting 5 attacks on a charge (2 base, +1 for bolt pistol, +1 for charge, and a guaranteed hit due to Hammer of Wrath), and their Corvus Hammers are all +1 strength with Rending so they can punish most things pretty effectively in close combat.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Black Knights have twin-linked plasma-guns. Need we say more? Turns out we do, in fact, because they have other tricks that make them very deadly.

1 in every 3 guys can be given a Ravenwing Grenade launcher for free. You lose some shooting power (not much because you can still rapid fire Krak grenades), but gain utility for the squad. The more absurd one of the two specialty 'nades is just S3 AP- blast, but just by HITTING (doesn't need to even cause a wound!) it reduces the toughness of the squad it hits by 1. Mind you, thats for hitting so you roll against T3 with your plasma guns. It means you're instant-death against any multi-wound model that was previously T4.

Instant-death against non-biker Marine HQs? Check. Instant death against Ork Nobs? Check. Instant death against non-Nurgle Obliterators? Check. Instant death against Crisis and Broadside Battlesuits? Check. Pretty nasty.

The grenadier also has a Stasis Bomb which doesn't inflict damage, but reduces WS and Initiative of the unit it hits by 1. Pretty solid against a fair number of things you'd want to ram. Seeing as how all RW bikers have hit and run, it's pretty safe to jam your black knights into assaults. They are quite deadly in assault, too, so hey that works out fine. They're effectively getting 5 attacks on a charge (2 base, +1 for bolt pistol, +1 for charge, and a guaranteed hit due to Hammer of Wrath), and their Corvus Hammers are all +1 strength with Rending so they can punish most things pretty effectively in close combat.

Wow, thanks for detailed description, I appreciate it. They sound completely badass! Is it a different model from a normal RW biker, or could I use one of the Dark Vengeance bike models as a BK?

You can use anything you want as a counts-as model as long as it's on the right size for testing purposes, but it is actually a different model. Instead of a twin-linked boltgun on the front of the bike, it's a twin-linked plasma gun or the RW grenade launcher.

Fun kit to assemble, but it is $50 bucks for 3 dudes MSRP. The fancy fronts on the bikes to fit the Plasma Talons/Grenade Launcher don't fit snug onto regular bike models, either, so if you want to do some converting it ends up being enough of a hassle it's better to just get more of the "Ravenwing Command Squad/Black Knights" kit. 3 bikers is already $40 bucks so another $10 on top of that for all the fancy guns and Ravenwing specific iconography/bits is pretty cool.

I've bought 2 of those kits and used the excess heads, shoulders and chest pieces to throw on the 6 bikers and attack bike that comes in the Ravenwing Battleforce kit so they're all a little more bling than regular ol' bikers would have been otherwise.

I would recommend the DV bikers to make your army, as they are a cheap source of bikes if you can find them.

I would also recommend the Dark angels biker command/ black knights boxed set, the models are good, and the set also comes with a lot of spare parts, which will help you convert your DV bikes and makes them look more varied.

IMO, you should be looking at buying 2 boxes of black knights. This will give you enough to make 5 bikes for your Ravenwing command squad (basically the same as black knights, but 2 points cheaper and can take standards) , and 1 more bike which you can use to convert a chaplain or librarian on to a bike, and therefore unlock the squad in the first place. (Librarian is better than chaplain in most cases).

If you are confused about the 5 bikes in the RCS, check the FAQ. They changed the squad size from 3 to 5.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I would recommend the DV bikers to make your army, as they are a cheap source of bikes if you can find them.

I would also recommend the Dark angels biker command/ black knights boxed set, the models are good, and the set also comes with a lot of spare parts, which will help you convert your DV bikes and makes them look more varied.

IMO, you should be looking at buying 2 boxes of black knights. This will give you enough to make 5 bikes for your Ravenwing command squad (basically the same as black knights, but 2 points cheaper and can take standards) , and 1 more bike which you can use to convert a chaplain or librarian on to a bike, and therefore unlock the squad in the first place. (Librarian is better than chaplain in most cases).

If you are confused about the 5 bikes in the RCS, check the FAQ. They changed the squad size from 3 to 5.

Thanks Bill, I'll see if I can find someone willing to trade some BKs or possibly dig some up online. I assume Sammael is also a must-have for this type of army?

Normally yes, Sam would be a necessity unless you are planning on doing something with Azrael (who your chapter master from DV could be used as, as his equipment is exactly the same).

Sammael fits a pure ravenwing list better of course. He usually sits with a squad of black knights, either adding some more wounds to protect that dakka standard, or making the unit act as a mini deathstar.