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Let's say a unit has a Rune of Slowness. The unit is joined by a Thane BSB who has 2 Runes of Slowness. If an enemy charges this unit, do they

1) Subtract a D6 for the unit's Rune of Slowness

and

2) Roll 2D6, pick the highest, and subtract that from their charge, due to the BSB's two Runes of Slowness?

Essentially, would a charging unit subtract 2D6 from their charge?

Thanks!

From looking at the book:

*1x Rune of Slowness: Roll a D6 and take the number rolled off the Opposing Charges Units Distance.

*2x Rune of Slowness: A Foe Rolls 2D6 and takes the Highest roll when subtracting the charge distance.

*3x Rune of Slowness: Basically if they still make it into combat despite losing D6 on the charge, they will Always Strike Last in CC.

So to answer your question, no they do not take 2D6 off there charge. They still take only 1x D6 off the charge distance, but chose the higher number of 2x Dice rolled.

Rommel what's your thinking there? You've said looking at the book but not actually backed up your statement.

To me it seems really unclear. If you have a banner with a rune of slowness you subtract d6. So the argument there is if you have 1 banner or 20 banners you still have a banner so only 1d6.

However for 2 runes that wording is not present nor for 3. It just says a 2nd rune results in x therefore the closest to RaW from your example is you would subtract 2d6 pick the highest and give ASL to an opponent.

However that reading runs into problems when you have 2 banners both containing 2 runes of slowness. To be honest the wording is a bit of a mess.

The rune of slowness is the only banner worded differently - instead of saying "a standard bearing X",MIT simply says "a second/third rune of slowness". RAW, this means you combine all the runes in the unit and I believe that's also RAI because otherwise you run into situations like the OP. FOr example, what happens if you roll 5" charge and 7" subtraction? There's no rule saying charge distance can't be negative and nothing prevents in in the dwarf book, so do they run backwards or not move? It's silly, whereas combining has no chance for such circumstances. The only border case is 4 runes of slowness in the same unit, which I would simply say follows the rules for 3, the 4th being a waste as there's no rules but that's an obvious house rule with no back up. Either way, it needs an FAQ and RAW, they combine so treat it as 2 in the unit, not 2 separate subtractions.

Actually, not even sure 2x2 is a corner case - could just be treated as 2 so only 2x and 1x in the same unit combines.

This is a FAQ needed question. In DOC only the highest Locus is in effect. This may be the same.

Raw: OP is correct.

I believe I see the problem here. And I also believe I can clarify.

OP stated that if a unit standard bearer has a banner with a single rune of slowness and is joined by a BSB containing a banner with two runes of slowness. What happens, do we...

a) Subtract a single d6 from the charge distance
-and/or do they-
b) Roll 2d6 and subtract the highest.

I imagine this is because OP believe that both effects fire from each banner. However, I believe the interpretation is more simple actually.

If we carefully examine the rule as written we see it says "any foes charging a unit including a standard bearing a rune of slowless..."

It very specifically states in the next paragraph "a second rune of Slowness means..."

This is important because it does not make a statement that the rune of slowness must be on the same banner. It simply says if another is added. If we look at Rune of Battle, there is a stipulation that the subsequent runes are on the same standard. Ex: "a standard bearing three runes of battle confers..."

So to answer OP's question. I believe it would count the total number of Rune of Slowness' in the unit and base its effect on that. That is to say three Runes of Slowness means you get the third effect, which is the exact same as the second but also gives ASL.

And what happens when you have 4 or 5 Runes of slowness in the same unit?

Is there rules for 4 or 5 runes ?
Nope there's not
As per Mr.Loverlover's reading, you would apply the "3 runes result" and that's it
It's like having 2 rune of stone, you can have them, but it's a waste

But the Rune specifically tells you that more than 1 has no further effect. Nothing here tells you that having more than 3 runes has no further benefit.

Well, as there's no rules for it, are you going to write your own rules?
We cannot extrapolate what would happen in this case, it's not covered, so we have to assume that more than 3 have no effect (you should already be happy that you can stack 2 banners!)

The Stacking of rule for runes are when they are placed on 1 item.

Raw OP is correct.. But I don't think GW thought of this.
For sportmansship and to reduce table disagreement, I would only use only the highest effect of the 2 banners.

TanKoL wrote:
(you should already be happy that you can stack 2 banners!)

Here you betray the truth behind your argument. It is based on what you think Dwarf players should be happy with not on actual rules.

If I put one rune on the BSB, and one of the unit standard, would the runes combine for the 2 rune effect?

-Matt

As written that appears to be the effect. Its not very well written or defined. I'm pretty certain that is not the intention and don't think that runes on different standards should combine.

I believe even if the runes are on different banners the effect stacks because of the specific lack of the normal stipulation that they must be on the same banner, which we see in other entries. However, you're right it is unclear what happens if you have, say, four runes split between 2 banners. I imagine it would just still count, see you have three then refer to the rule, and run the rules for three runes, because there are no rules to use for having four runes. That being said, if one banner is killed, say the BSB, then you still have a two rune banner to fall back on.

Is it completely clear, no. Do I believe this is the right interpretation for the rules that we currently have, yes.

Except if any of you bothered to read the rules for runes section 5 describes the difference between multiple runes and stacking runes. If you guys want to cheat go ahead, but good luck getting a game

If there was 2 banner with the rune of slowness they would both only have access to subtracting a D6 from the charge distance. the only way to get access to the roll 2D6 and remove highest from charge is to purchase the 2nd lvl, not have 2 lvl1 runes

TinTip, I fully agree with you that it's silly to have the runes stack if they are on separate banners, it's not something I would do, and it doesn't make sense to me. However, my opinion is moot when analyzing rules. I simply must do and follow the rules.

I'm not trying to undermine you but, you've provided no reason for me to change my interpretation of the rules. The rune rules state nothing about how they must be combined, in reference to this issue. And as I have stated before, because of the specific lack of a stipulation that the runes must be on the same banner the only logical conclusion you can come to, when objectively interpreting rules, is that the location of the rune doesn't matter in this case. Because if it did, it would have had the stipulation like the Rune of Battle and Rune of Sanctuary has.

well except for the fact you clearly didnt read rule 5 of runes.

Regardless both banners would only have the rule the remove a single D6 from the charge distance, neither has access to the 2nd lvl rune so that is ignored.

Rune rule five doesn't stipulate they must be contained on the same item in anyway, shape, or form.

using That logic, 2 runesmiths in a unit with 1 runebreaker each, (1 has the furnace rune) can roll a D6 to eat a spell.

Been waiting to see if the conversation continues before I jump in, but I guess not!

So what is the exact wording on this as written?

 Tangent wrote:
Been waiting to see if the conversation continues before I jump in, but I guess not!

So what is the exact wording on this as written?

RAW either taking 2 D6 rolls OR the stacking of the runes can be argued. RAI, it's the only banner worded differently (the others specifically clarify on one standard) so it's seems likely they were meant to be per unit so it would be take highest of 2D6 rather than 2 individual D6 rolls. There is a small argument for ignoring multiple separate banners with the rune due to usage of "a banner" but considering all other non stacking items specify they don't stack, it's fairly weak and like saying a unit of ranged seasons may only fire one as the rules refer to the weapons individually.

Eyjio wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
Been waiting to see if the conversation continues before I jump in, but I guess not!

So what is the exact wording on this as written?

RAW either taking 2 D6 rolls OR the stacking of the runes can be argued. RAI, it's the only banner worded differently (the others specifically clarify on one standard) so it's seems likely they were meant to be per unit so it would be take highest of 2D6 rather than 2 individual D6 rolls. There is a small argument for ignoring multiple separate banners with the rune due to usage of "a banner" but considering all other non stacking items specify they don't stack, it's fairly weak and like saying a unit of ranged seasons may only fire one as the rules refer to the weapons individually.

Right, but...

what is the exact wording on this as written?

 Purifier wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
Been waiting to see if the conversation continues before I jump in, but I guess not!

So what is the exact wording on this as written?

RAW either taking 2 D6 rolls OR the stacking of the runes can be argued. RAI, it's the only banner worded differently (the others specifically clarify on one standard) so it's seems likely they were meant to be per unit so it would be take highest of 2D6 rather than 2 individual D6 rolls. There is a small argument for ignoring multiple separate banners with the rune due to usage of "a banner" but considering all other non stacking items specify they don't stack, it's fairly weak and like saying a unit of ranged seasons may only fire one as the rules refer to the weapons individually.

Right, but...

what is the exact wording on this as written?

Hahahaha man, EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Here is the exact wording (spoiler, its written appallingly!):

"Any foes charging a unit including a standard bearing a Rune of Slowness subtract d6" from their charge distance ... (blah, blah, blah)

A second rule of slowness means foes must roll 2d6 and must choose the highest to subtract (blah, blah, blah)

A third rune of slowness maintains the previous effects and, should a foe contact the unit... they have the always strikes last rule (blah, blah, blah)"

Its pretty clear this was written with no provision for 2x2 RO Slowness, or really multiple banners with the rune at all.

The more I think about it this is the gakkiest rule writing I can think of, but here's my take:

Nowhere does it say in the dwarf rules that banners interact with each other. Assuming that two banners will combine Special Rule effects is entirely an assumption on the part of the player due to A) that some banners do contain stackable bonuses such as CR (more on that particular banner in a minute though...) and B) the appalling wording seen above. The idea that 2 separate banners with RO Slowness will combine to produce a unique effect that neither banner comes actually comes with on its own is still an assumption with AFAIK no written rules basis. Therefore in the case of the OP, and any duplicate slowness banners, you in fact just have a back-up incase one goes down as far as i see it.

Thanks! Ok, so, the debate is regarding when there are TWO banners in the SAME unit and BOTH have TWO Runes of Slowness? Ostensibly, one of those banners is the Army Battle Standard?

 Tangent wrote:
Thanks! Ok, so, the debate is regarding when there are TWO banners in the SAME unit and BOTH have TWO Runes of Slowness? Ostensibly, one of those banners is the Army Battle Standard?

Actually the debate is if you have two separate banners, each with a single Rune of Slowness, does the unit benefit from the effect generated by two Runes of Slowness as described in the rule quote above. (And, yes, this would only happen if there's a BSB present.)

It is also if you have 2 banners with 2 runes each how do they interact.

Ah, ok. So the question is whether or not you do the ONE effect TWICE because there are two runes TOTAL, or the one effect ONCE because both runes do the same thing. And I assume the debate lies in the rules regarding the stacking of runes?

And I assume the rules say that if you stack multiple runes on the same banner, the stacking effect takes place, but has no mention as to the stacking of runes in a UNIT on multiple banners?

FINALLY GOT MY DORF BOOK.

I'm going to sidestep this lawyerly. Though I changed my opinion once.

*************************
The Runes don't stack.

Why?

Because the text for the increase value is for putting the Rune on the same item. I think that much is clear.

As for why each one doesn't take of D6:

...foes charging a unit including A standard bearing A Rune of Slowness

A standard.
A Rune.
Charging a unit with 50 standards with 1-3 Runes each, is still charging a standard. It doesn't limit you to charging one or you could never charge multiple standards.

If you score 3 goals and are asked if you scored a goal, you can answer yes. You can go further and say I scored 3. But you still did score "a" goal.

e.g.,
-Unit has 3 Standards with Runes of Slowness.
-Enemy Charges
-Did you charge a foe with a standard with a Rune of Slowness? Yes/No (clearly yes, even though there are 3. The first sentence therefore satisfies all the standards.)
-If Yes, Subtract D6....

It doesn't say they are additive, or multiplicative, or numerous standards.