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I mean, it comes with one dark lance, and is a skimmer. I feel as though they're a little over priced. Maybe put it at 45 points base, then add upgrades? Thoughts?

Isnt it faster, assault type and able to get upgrades that affect the transported units shooting?

Seems pretty good to me. Not sure on points but its worth more than a Chimera.

Being a DE player myself I would be happy if they did this but I think they are about right as they are. They aren't meant to survive long, a Dark Lance is a nice weapon for such a lightweight transport to carry. They cannot match the Venom for
damage output but few vehicles can.

the ability to take lance weapons are huge vs what a rhino can take

What?

- A rhino moves 12"/18", while a raider moves 12"/30"

- A rhino sometimes immobilizes itself on terrain, and can't pass over impassable terrain, while a raider basically ignores terrain.

- A rhino gains no survivability when it moves, while a raider gains a 5+ cover save.

- A rhino can shoot two models out of two fireports, while a raider can shoot everyone out of their transport.

- A rhino's passengers can't assault after disembarking, but a raider's can (and a raider can carry better assault units, to boot).

- A rhino can shoot a slightly better bolter, while a raider effectively gets a lascannon.

- A rhino can't take upgrades to make the squad it's transporting better, while a raider can (splinter racks, gristly trophies, etc.)

- A rhino can't take upgrades to make it more survivable, while a raider can (flickerfields, nightshields, etc.)

Rhinos are garbage, and would scarcely be worth taking even if they were free. Raiders are good, with lots of strengths to only one real weakness, which is why you have to pay so much for them.

There's no way the two should cost the same.

Yeah uhh no. Even as a DE player, they are decent where they are. Its an assaulty gunboat vs a dedicated transport. Both have paper armor, but the raider can reach out and touch someone and so can its passengers.

The raider is also a dedicated transport....

The rhino is a bit over priced for what it does in the current edition. It would be okay with combi weapon options and can be made okay with certain special rules (scout from CT).

The raider is a very respectable vehicle and the only reason you don't see them more is that their favored contents (wyches) have become a rarity due to a combination of no assaulting out of reserves (webway portal), overwatch, and casualties from the front. For what you get they are actually really good just not as good in most vehicle heavy lists as venoms as dark lances are cheaper on raiders.

Lol, a rhino and it's storm Bolter is terrifying ... Way better than a lance shot ...

Raiders are well costed!

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The raider is also a dedicated transport....

If that's the basis of your argument, then sure, lets make all Dedicated Transports cost 35 points!

So, that's Repressors. Night Scythes. Oh! Land Raiders!

 Ailaros wrote:
What?

- A rhino moves 12"/18", while a raider moves 12"/30"

- A rhino sometimes immobilizes itself on terrain, and can't pass over impassable terrain, while a raider basically ignores terrain.

- A rhino gains no survivability when it moves, while a raider gains a 5+ cover save.

- A rhino can shoot two models out of two fireports, while a raider can shoot everyone out of their transport.

- A rhino's passengers can't assault after disembarking, but a raider's can (and a raider can carry better assault units, to boot).

- A rhino can shoot a slightly better bolter, while a raider effectively gets a lascannon.

- A rhino can't take upgrades to make the squad it's transporting better, while a raider can (splinter racks, gristly trophies, etc.)

- A rhino can't take upgrades to make it more survivable, while a raider can (flickerfields, nightshields, etc.)

Rhinos are garbage, and would scarcely be worth taking even if they were free. Raiders are good, with lots of strengths to only one real weakness, which is why you have to pay so much for them.

There's no way the two should cost the same.

-Rhinos have a better AV with 11, 11, 10 whilst raiders are 10, 10, 10. That being said, I concur with you. I just wanted to add that in. Seriously though, I like raiders as is. They are fun, devestating, and the epitome of glass cannons. What they give up in protection they gain back in a devastating flurry of shooting and the capability of being assaulted out of.

Sounds like the Raider epitomises DEldar to a tee.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The raider is also a dedicated transport....

If that's the basis of your argument, then sure, lets make all Dedicated Transports cost 35 points!

So, that's Repressors. Night Scythes. Oh! Land Raiders!

Well BT would never complain about getting to melee again thats for sure. LAND RAIDERS FOR EVERYONE

The Raider is fine imo. It is a really fast transport with a large capacity and it has a darklance. It is worth its price.

Oh, to have the choice . . .

Looking at both vehicles from an Eldar perspective, I envy both. Cheap transports, whether flimsy and assault, or slightly tougher and slow.


But, the points do look about right.
The abilities of skimmers are very good, and can easily outweigh the extra armour of a Rhino.
Even comparing against the Razorback instead, to factor in the heavy weapons of both, having Assault and skimmer are worth a lot to a fairly assault-heavy army like the DE.

Looking at both vehicles from an Eldar perspective, I envy both.

I think they cost 10 pts too much , they are over priced compering to what they are suppose to be doing on the table . as gunboats venoms are better and for assault all the shoting upgrades matter little as they won't see much use.

Still better then chimeras , bec ause of being skimer.

 Skinnereal wrote:


Looking at both vehicles from an Eldar perspective, I envy both.

Aye, the Rhino is a much better choice than the Wave Serpent.

Oh wait lol.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Oh, to have the choice . . .

Looking at both vehicles from an Eldar perspective, I envy both. Cheap transports, whether flimsy and assault, or slightly tougher and slow.


But, the points do look about right.
The abilities of skimmers are very good, and can easily outweigh the extra armour of a Rhino.
Even comparing against the Razorback instead, to factor in the heavy weapons of both, having Assault and skimmer are worth a lot to a fairly assault-heavy army like the DE.

Trade ya raider rules, for wave serpent rules! Wouldn't trade the aesthetic though, raiders look better. Lol

Just to answer the previous comments, Wave Serpents are currently only thought good due to being able to dish out damage.
That's not the reason I take them, if at all, as I want my troops to get safely into range. Then, to get out and get the job done.
A WS costs 4x the cost of a Rhino, or 3x that of a Razorback, or the cost of a squad all by itself.
I want to be able to use cc units again, as at present, they're not getting onto the table for some time.

A Rhino is the price of a couple of troops, so for the cost of 5 full squads, you can get 3-4 in boxes.
A couple of kitted Raiders and their units are more effective than 3 units on foot.

The WS is not thought good because they can shoot the shield, they are thought broken because of that. They're absurdly resilient transports otherwise. Think on this, if your strategy requires a transpor reaching somewhere on the table, the lack of resilience of everything non-land raider requires redundancy. A WS is but guaranteed to do it unless you play very badly or are unlucky. That means you need much less of them and thus they're actually cheaper than anything other armies can put on the table.

Wave Serpent is not only damage, it is also extremely tough and resilient to alpha strikes, in addition to its mobility.

The issue with raiders is that they are av 10 all around open topped, not not really small.

The squad inside pretty much relies on getting close, and is lightly armored with a low toughness.

The thing is going to blow up and kill half the guys inside, and probably only get 1-2 rounds of movement if it doesn't get blown up before you even get to move it.

Instead of comparing it to a rhino, lets compare it to orks.

An ork trukk is fast open topped, has a bunch of upgrades and1ranged "heavy' weapon. It carries a bunch of lightly armored guys and has a special rule that makes them less likely to die a terrible death with it explodes. it is not a skimmer.

Comparing these two, and considering the point of each in the army is more suitable then comparing a raider to a rhino, I would say a raider is over costed.

blaktoof wrote:
Instead of comparing it to a rhino, lets compare it to orks. An ork trukk is fast open topped, has a bunch of upgrades and1ranged "heavy' weapon. It carries a bunch of lightly armored guys and has a special rule that makes them less likely to die a terrible death with it explodes. it is not a skimmer.

Comparing these two, and considering the point of each in the army is more suitable then comparing a raider to a rhino, I would say a raider is over costed.

Maybe, but a Trukk can be immobilized in terrain. The Raider has an AT gun, it can move faster than a Trukk and gets a cover save for it too. The Dark Eldar troops are also much better shots if you slow down so they can shoot at full BS. Granted neither is as good as they were when assault was a bit easier, but that's what you get for having a Codex that isn't up to the newest rules edition.

The jink save is a point, but trukks can get rams for cheap that allow them to ignore terrain it can drive over. The trukk also gets a anti tank weapon option, but of course it is at BS2. The slowing down to shoot thing also makes the fact its a fast transport moot.

I'm not advocating a raider should cost as much as a truck, but I don't think it should cost 25 more points than one.

Hey, if you dont want the raider we marine players will trade our rhino for it.

not a good comparison.

a av10 fast skimmer a marine can assault out of is much more valuable than an av10 fast skimmer with wyches or kabalite warriors in it.

Also an av10 fast skimmer blowing up against toughness4 and save 3+ is a lot different then the deathtrap of toughness 3 and 5+ save when it blows up....

That said flor many of the DE units, outside of wracks/wyches, I would probably take the trade.