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Hello everyone! I am considering running a razorback spam list with either Grey Knights or Space Marines ,and I was just considering the options between what seems to be the best two options: the Assault Cannon and the Las-Plas turrets. What do you fellow Space Marine and or Grey Knight players out there use? Why? I thought I'd start out by listing some of the Pros and Cons of each:

Assault Cannon Pros:
-Decent range, plus being mounted on a fast vehicle
-S6, Rending and Heavy 4, meaning it can tackle both armor and infantry
-Twin Linked
Assault Cannon Cons:
- Suffers from "one weapon syndrome", meaning only 1 Weapon Destroyed result neuters the vehicle
- Hard to take out TEQs with them

Las-Plas Pros:
- Multiple weapons, meaning more penetrating results until it is immobilized
- AP2 weapons, meaning you can take out elite units like terminators
- Nearly the same number of shots as the assault cannon, with higher strength
- 48" range
Las/Plas Cons:
- In order to get maximum shots you have to be within 12 inches, meaning charge range
-Only 1-2 shots out of the 2-3 shots are twin linked, where the assault cannon always has4 twin linked shots

Feel free to add anything else, let the discussion commence!

The number of weapons issue is unlikely to be important. In 5th where glances had a non-trivial chance of removing a weapon, this was more of an issue. In 6th if you are in a position where you need to take that 2nd weapon destroyed result you've already lost 2/3 hullpoints to those 2 pens alone, meaning you are more likely to simply lose the razorback from the damage and not become immobilized.

Lasplas needs to remains stationary to fire both weapons at max BS, which to me is more of a drawback than the possibility of becoming immobilized from a second weapon destroyed result.

TL assault cannons and TL lascannons are better as they can move and shoot without losing firepower, imo.

Are you playing Blood Angels? Yes? Take Las/Plas

EDIT: BA Razorbacks are fast, thus they can move 12" and fire both weapons at full ballistic skill and on their "cheap" transports, these are just simply too awesome not to take

Are you playing Grey Knights? Yes? Take Heavy Bolters with Psybolt or Assault cannons if you're feeling very fancy and want a Twinlinked Psycannon

EDIT: Psybolts, for a meagre sum, knocks the str of your main gun up a notch, turning a Heavy Bolter into a Pseudo Assault Cannon and turning an Assault Cannon into a pseudo Psycannon. Also, Grey Knights optimal range is controlling midfield with good shooting and CC threat at about 18-36" from the enemy so these weapons match up nicely

If you are playing any other flavor of everybody's favorite Spess Monkeys (or Wolves) take Heavy Bolters for cheapness and the ability to move twelve inches and take three snapshots. If you're okay with moving 6" most of the time or not moving at all (Devestator squad razor maybe?) Go ahead and take that Twin Linked Lascannon.

EDIT: Most of the time, you do not want to spend a whole lot of points on an AV11 HP3 vehicle. Because it will die. The best idea is to make it less of a target and less of a liability by spending as few points as possible on it while still maintaining it's role of transport and increased Firepower. The only time this is less true is the Stationary Razorback, the one parked in cover perhaps behind your Aegis line with some devestators. This Razorback now has a save of some kind AND stays away from all those nasty High Str low ap guns with short ranges (and usually the melta rule) that scare it so badly. It can still be reached by serpent shields (which are auto win buttons anyway) and autocannons but it has a much higher survival rate and will always be able to use it's weapon to it's full potential so you might as well give it a weapon worth using. A BS4 twin linked Lascannon comes to mind as it's a high str, low ap, long range shot that you can depend on to hurt someone or something almost every turn.

EDIT: I suppose I should put down some reasoning

Is there really much value in the TL HB variant compared to the cheaper dual SB Rhino?

Personally I run Linked Lascannons. They are a threat at all ranges, are accurate due to the linking, and are threatening enough to draw fire away from other targets. I use them as pocket tanks and often run them empty or with a 5 man naked squad inside. The ability to threaten armor at long ranges is something that GK lack so I like the ability to reach out and touch targets with the lascannons.

AV 11 vehicles expose themselves to all kinds of nasty fire getting into assault cannon range. I have been disappointed by assault cannons most times I've tried to use them.

Razorbacks are nice but generally i'd take tllc or just a regular rhino. I value rhinos as cheap relatively sturdy movable blos. And if u've got a landraider in your army - a single rhino that blocks side los to your disembarked termies/vv, tankshocks and separates an enemy squad or providing some focus fire shots can save a day. And to use all that, you ususally forego shooting and move flatout. I find it much more useful than a couple of hb/ac shots.

Thus said, firesupport is valuable too especially when u're playing defensive. Once again, i'd like a tl-lc just cause of how dangerous it is to get within 36' to other armies. And razorbacks ain't cheap by no means. 2 razorbacks with ac/laz cost more than a darn wave serpent.

Considering that an upgraded Razorback is almost the same point cost as a five man squad with a heavy weapon,  is there value in bringing the transport when you could bring another squad, IF you're goal is adding more ranged firepower?

90 points for a 5 man scoring unit with a lascannon, or 75 points for a transport with a TL lascannon. The vehicle is cheaper, has a different function and has better accuracy.

Different units for entirely different purposes imo.

For GK you want the Assault Cannon as you can make it S7 on the cheap. BA should get Las Plas. Everybody else should probably reconsider running Razorbacks altogether IMO.

I cannot recommend running them in a GK army with heavy bolters and psi-ammunition enough. It is amazing how much difference that point of strength can make, and it's so cheap on the points. (and can hold a combat squads' worth of pretty much any non-TEQ unit, a decent perk in and of itself)

They are relatively fragile, so running them around with a 36" str 6 gun goes a long way to making targeting priority very hard for most folks given how economical it is to field 4-6 of them in that configuration. The only drawback really is it really bites in killpoint missions to have so many units on the field, best not to combat squad in that type of situation.

 minigun762 wrote:
Is there really much value in the TL HB variant compared to the cheaper dual SB Rhino?

Yea if you play grey knights, 5 points bumps it up to STR 6 AP4 Twin linked 3 shots

Assault cannons are already a great TAC weapon choice that can do damage to TEQ with the rending. You gain more consistency without having to worry about the rapidfire nature of plasma guns, and the boost from psi ammo is invaluable making it an even more viable option against MCs and reducing your reliance on rending for wounding those tough buggers.

Twinlinked also makes it a more friendly option to shoot and flyers than the Las Plas version.

That's what I keep trying to tell people. Assault cannons are not good TAC choices because of their range. And the platforms they come on aren't too good, either.

I tried 3 razorbacks with 2 TL lascannons and one with assault cannon and the chaos SM army I played against blew them up by turn 2. All they did was give my opponent first blood. Rhino variants suck. Too many things out there that can kill them so easy.

If you use the TL Lascannon. Keep it back to fire long range.

If you use the plasma cannon variant keep it back to help kill those pesky DS terminators

Martel732 wrote:
That's what I keep trying to tell people. Assault cannons are not good TAC choices because of their range. And the platforms they come on aren't too good, either.

I don't think they are bad on Talons.