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Simple question.

I think we discussed this before couple months ago and the consensus was, yes, it can.

Basically Moonfang is the blade Korsarro Khan of the White Scars wields. It is a power weapon that, should he roll a to-wound roll of 6, that wound gains the Instant Death rule. The Emperor's Champion has a similar rule for one of his Black Sword's battle stances in a challenge.


His sword says: "If Kor'sarro Khan rolls a 6 To Wound, that Wound has the Instant Death Special rule" (p.111)

Emphasis here is on "that wound", i.e. that wound inflicted is given the Instant Death USR. However, his Strength 4 is not enough to inflict a wound on Toughness 8 in the first place.


The Instant Death USR in the BRB says: "Unsaved Wounds inflicted by an Attack with this special rule automatically inflict Instant Death, regardless of the victim's Toughness." (p.38)

Maybe thats where the confusion is coming from. However I think the "regardless of the victim's toughness" wording doesnt give a weapon with ID a way to skip checking the target's toughness. Rather, that wording is simply used to demonstrate that in normal rules, ID only occurs if a weapon's strength is double your toughness. But weapons specifically causing ID dont care if you are T6 or greater (as usually T6 or greater would mean you never have to worry about being ID'd and can point to your toughness as proof that you cant)


My verdict is this: Khan rolls to Wound. He rolls a 6. THIS grants that to-wound roll the Instant Death Special rule. Notice it is a to-wound roll with the Instant Death USR, and not an inflicted unsaved wound from a weapon with the Instant Death USR, so the Wraiththingy cant get insta-killed as the to-wound roll isnt enough to wound T8.

Verdict: Kor'sarro Khan cant insta-kill the Wraithlord/Knight.


Now the pro-side argues that if a wound gains the ID special rule, the toughness of the target doesnt matter.

The con-side argues that S4 cannot wound T8, so even on a 6 it would simply be a S4 wound gaining the ID rule that however doesnt come into effect as even a 6 doesnt scratch T8


Furthermore, I'd like to argue that if - should a wound gain the ID rule it can would any toughness - then can a hypothetical weapon that always has the ID special rule (not just on a 6), but, say, only has strength 2, even need to do a to-wound roll?

I mean if people argue that Khan kills the Wraithlord on a 6 because his weapon gains ID on a 6, then a weapon that always has the ID special rule doesnt even need to roll to-wound, right?

The instant death special rule doesn't say it wounds regardless of toughness. It means the creature is slain immediately regardless of toughness. You still have to inflict the wound. The Instant Death USR says it inflicts "Instant Death regardless of the victim's toughness (pg 16)." It's in regards to the Instant Death rules listed on page 16, about double strength to toughness meaning the model dies instantly.

As Moonfang (at S4) cannot even roll to wound a T8 model, there is no chance to cause an unsaved wound.

ID is entirely irrelevant in the matter.

It can indeed roll to wound, it has no result in which it would normally score a result.

Only on the charge, IIRC Korsarro has Furious charge, so on that turn a 6 would be a successful to wound roll. Otherwise no.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It can indeed roll to wound, it has no result in which it would normally score a result.

Very well. He can indeed roll to wound, however without something to modify the strength above 4 (such as above, furious charge) there is no way to actually roll a wound. This is why I said he cannot roll to wound - ie : cannot cause a wound (and I should have added "normally") vs a T8 model. If there is no chance to wound, there is no unsaved wound, which means instant death does not come into play.

Rorschach9 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It can indeed roll to wound, it has no result in which it would normally score a result.

Very well. He can indeed roll to wound, however without something to modify the strength above 4 (such as above, furious charge) there is no way to actually roll a wound. This is why I said he cannot roll to wound - ie : cannot cause a wound (and I should have added "normally") vs a T8 model. If there is no chance to wound, there is no unsaved wound, which means instant death does not come into play.

This.

My khan did indeed instant kill a wraithknight in a recent game i played, using his furious charge.

I agree with the consensus, he cannot wound without the Furious charge, hence he cannot ID the Wraith lord.

The sword would need the rending USR to wound the Wraithlord past turn 1.

Yes, obviously Khan can ID either of them on the turn he charged and gets lucky.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
The sword would need the rending USR to wound the Wraithlord past turn 1.

Interesting you mention that, because that means in a challenge (BTs get rending) the Emperor's Champion can ID a Wraithlord, since it is a character, but not a Wraithknight.

Actually, if I rethink this scenario he can also ID a Wraithknight outside a challenge because the "Slay the Heretic" stance says: "To Wound rolls of 6 made with the Black Sword have the Instant Death special rule"

So even if making a to-wound roll of a 6 outside a challenge would not give it rending, and thus make it ineffective against T8, the special rule doesnt say "that wound has the ID special rule" like in Khan's profile, but simply "to wound rolls of 6", therefore inflicting ID.

 Sir Arun wrote:
"Slay the Heretic" stance says: "To Wound rolls of 6 made with the Black Sword have the Instant Death special rule"

So even if making a to-wound roll of a 6 outside a challenge would not give it rending, and thus make it ineffective against T8, the special rule doesnt say "that wound has the ID special rule" like in Khan's profile, but simply "to wound rolls of 6", therefore inflicting ID.

But if you can't inflict a wound with a 6, what does it matter? Instant Death is checked when the enemy has suffered an unsaved wound, and you're still not capable of inflicting a wound in the first place.

well that settles it then. thanks guys.