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I think we've been over the "Is 30k compatible with 40k" discussion plenty, to varying opinions. I'd rather not ask that question again.

What I'd like is some help. I'm hoping to introduce some HH lists into a league locally, and the organized isn't really familiar with the rules in a practical sense. Id like just some easy "list able" differences, weaknesses, and strengths the HH list has in the current meta (ie. more unit diversity, expensive units at base model count, etc.)

Any input is much appreciated.
-TheCaptain

I play these pretty often in these type battles. They are fairly balanced. Some armies flat out will give HH lists a fit and be an uphill battle, some armies its almost unfair in a battle with a lack of terrain. 30k lists are perhaps the most balanced lists written for the game and while your basic stuff is pretty cheap, toys on the other hand are pricey as hell. Other MEQ armies with be fairly balanced for a fight. Eldar and Necrons will hurt a HH army. Nids and orks will suffer. IG would be a pretty standup fight.

If just introducing a HH army to a group, just go with basic troop types and very little of the weird stuff, you do not want to enforce the auto-FW is broken response when something unexpected happens and then they never play you again.

Hmm.

Marines are slightly less powerful individually, but come in much larger numbers.

Beware Fury of the Legion!

Scouts are full Marines in power armour.

Beware the Moritat!

Devastator squads can take as many heavy weapons as Marines.

Beware Astartes basilisks.

10k difference.

Volkite Weaponry.
Long range.
High strength.
High rate of fire.
Initial wounds cause secondary wounds.
Poor AP limits their effectiveness against MEQ, which is reflected in the MEQ-orientated 30k points, a 5-man 'Devastator' squad with Volkite Culverins will pretty much remove any Ork, Guard, Eldar, Tau or Nid squad from the game per turn.

I think the biggest thing is the larger squad size and the greater availability of special weapons. Most people are probably used to marine squads capping at 10 men and 2-3 special weapon squads, so I think it's worth mentioning the potential for those. Squads like Tactical Support Squads with huge amounts of melta/plasma/flamers might throw people off if they aren't expecting it.

 Paradigm wrote:
I think the biggest thing is the larger squad size and the greater availability of special weapons. Most people are probably used to marine squads capping at 10 men and 2-3 special weapon squads, so I think it's worth mentioning the potential for those. Squads like Tactical Support Squads with huge amounts of melta/plasma/flamers might throw people off if they aren't expecting it.

Just think of them as Fire Dragons and then it pieces together better.

You can't take a special squad alone though as it doesn't count as a compulsory choice.

Yeah, I'm not saying they're OP or anything, just that it's fair to warn the opponent beforehand if you're bringing them. Other than Fragons, nothing else really has that kind of special weapon capacity in 40k proper off the top of my head.

Support Squads are mostly balanced by the fact they have to have the same weapon, there are no cheap meat shields to soak up casualties. A five man Legion Heavy Support Squad with four Lascannons costs about the same as a ten-man vanilla Devastator Squad with four Lascannons.

One thing that you have to be vary careful with is that the legions don't have ATSKNF so against dedicated comabt squads you can quickly lose quite large investments.

On a similar note how well does the mechanicum lists, ie ordo reductor and legio cybernetica match up?

The Admech lists are the reason why I think 30k and 40k should not be mixed.

Legio cybernetica are INSANE. they effectively got cheap MC squads in there, AS TROOPS.

Or, if you want huge squads of T5 W3 4+ mini-crisis-suits, they also got that as troops.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The Admech lists are the reason why I think 30k and 40k should not be mixed.

Legio cybernetica are INSANE. they effectively got cheap MC squads in there, AS TROOPS.

Or, if you want huge squads of T5 W3 4+ mini-crisis-suits, they also got that as troops.

They aren't that effective seeing as they cannot get any vehicles and have to footslog.

Who? the T7 W4 Sv3 guys who comes in small packs and can defiantly take the beating till they get there, and cheap enough to horde up, or do you mean the dudes with jetpacks?

Seriously, having no transports is not a problem at all for these guys.

If they're that crazy, why not just use them sparingly?

For serious. Even Riptides and Wave Serpents and Hellturkeys are ok if the player doesn't spam them like a dick.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Who? the T7 W4 Sv3 guys who comes in small packs and can defiantly take the beating till they get there, and cheap enough to horde up, or do you mean the dudes with jetpacks?

Seriously, having no transports is not a problem at all for these guys.

The T7 W4 SV3 guys who can be kited if nobody nearby is with a Cortex Controller due to Programmed Behaviors?

Correction, riptides and helldrakes are not even scary if the player does not use one specific gun option for each (ion accelerator and baleflamer) that is OP.

The admech list? that's ALL they got. their entire list is these, variant of these, things that improve/support these, and practically only one truly different unit, who is also damn good.

Troops? either the MCs, the crisis suits, or "cheaper then cultist" mobs.

Elites? T5 W2 3+/5++ guys who carry two guns (and shot both at BS5) from a decent list of options ranging from bolter variant to graviton, fusil and rad and bring power axes in case a fight starts.
The other option is repair crews.

FA? you got the crisis suits again, with a given upgrade, or some decent aircraft.

HS? the crisis suits YET AGAIN, with another upgrade.
OR the guys from the elites making a comeback as they trades the axe and pair of guns for a power fist a a single big gun (and in big I mean things the class of a conversion beamer, baleflamer and equivilants, not mere devestator guns)

You want a transport? a quick check reveals that the crisis suits CAN, in the form of land raiders that you build yourself to your specs.

And the HQ that runs the whole business? got his own form of psyker powers, statline that ranges from SM chaplin to chapter master equivalent, and the option to take TONS of upgrades from pistols, to melta bombs, to special weapons and even heavy weapons and the MoTF harness (all at once)

Its not a given unit that makes Admech insane, its that EVERYTHING in the list is like that, I just went over the troops that makes the frontlines, every other unit is either a variant of them, a beast on its own, or a support unit to make them even more durable.
And as I assume that AdMech is not completely stomping 30k armies, then defiantly a 30k army would crush a non-cheesed 40k army, because even something as nasty as a triptide will have issues taking down a random selection of AdMech units.

Hoo boy.

Troops? either the MCs, the crisis suits, or "cheaper then cultist" mobs.

Mobs, yes ten man squads that can't increase are mobs. I'm sure that's frightening considering they don't even score to begin with, along with 18" S4 guns.

The Battle Automata can be kited due to their Programmed Behaviors, kill the boss with the cortex and you can kite him like anything with 5th edition rage, not to mention haywire guns actually do affect them, not to mention their melee being WS3/I3/A2. You can tie them up hard in melee as if they don't smash they'll just be doing S6.

The Thallax (Crisis Suits) only have an 18" AP5 H1 gun with rending. They aren't much better in melee either at WS3/I2/A2 4+ saves, they can be focused fired down by heavy bolters.

Elites? T5 W2 3+/5++ guys who carry two guns (and shot both at BS5) from a decent list of options ranging from bolter variant to graviton, fusil and rad and bring power axes in case a fight starts.

That are 180 with the cheapest (You have to BUY two weapons for everyone), and their max range is 24" and you need to take a storm-raven to get them to combat.

FA? you got the crisis suits again, with a given upgrade, or some decent aircraft.

Yeah they do have some decent aircraft.

OR the guys from the elites making a comeback as they trades the axe and pair of guns for a power fist a a single big gun (and in big I mean things the class of a conversion beamer, baleflamer and equivilants, not mere devestator guns)

Yep, these guys are good actually, far more expensive then devastators though, and certainly no heldrake.

You want a transport? a quick check reveals that the crisis suits CAN, in the form of land raiders that you build yourself to your specs.

Only if you play Ordo Reductor. Not the one's with all the gubbins you want, check better next time.

And the HQ that runs the whole business? got his own form of psyker powers, statline that ranges from SM chaplin to chapter master equivalent, and the option to take TONS of upgrades from pistols, to melta bombs, to special weapons and even heavy weapons and the MoTF harness (all at once)

Psyker powers that can cause your own Battle Automotia to turn on you and kill you.

Also you really need to check the statline better, WS4/BS5/S4/T5/W3/I3/A2/LD10 is now a chapter masters stats?

Yes he can indeed take many things, benefits of being Admech baby! Costly though, and still no transport.

Also I was wrong though, you can indeed take a storm-raven transport, but that's kinda it.

And as I assume that AdMech is not completely stomping 30k armies, then defiantly a 30k army would crush a non-cheesed 40k army, because even something as nasty as a triptide will have issues taking down a random selection of AdMech units.

Not really, as my area plays 30k vs 40k, we've seen tyranids conquer them before.

Gashrog, I think you meant 5 man heavy support squad with 5 lascannons costs the same as a ten man dev squad with 4.

Col. Dash wrote:
Gashrog, I think you meant 5 man heavy support squad with 5 lascannons costs the same as a ten man dev squad with 4.

Heavy Support Squad Sergeant comes with a Heavy Bolter by default but can exchange it for a Nuncio-Vox and Chainsword, doing so puts the point cost closer to the Devastator squad.

ZebioLizard2Made, as i'm too lazy to deal with qoute mess, I'll just list it in points:

As for troops:
Battle otomata "programmed behavior" is not that much of a factor. they are still cheap MCs that you throw en mass at the enemy-so even if you lose your controller (or controllers if you have multiple), they will still tear holes in the enemy ranks, efficiently and cheaply. and they cannot be ignored.
Thallax are not as armed as crisis suit, true. but not as pricy, and far more durable. yes heavy bolters are effective agaisnt them, but they are still a though nut to crack at their cost, moreso then a crisis suit actually. (T5 makes them hard to ID and get less wounds, 3 wounds makes them soak up quite more firepower.) even against AP4 guns, a suit will likely drop before a thallax.
And the tech-thralls, sure, limited to 10. but its 35 points objective sitters, that can be fearless for 15 more. they are rather cost effective at it.

Myrmidons, sure they HAVE to buy two guns, but heck they WANT to. they have some great options there, and even if you go for the slightly budget maxim bolter, you end up with dudes that are harder to kill then terminators (only spesifically AP3 weapons cut it even close, and still the myrmidons takes the crown), and carry effectifly 3 storm bolters each with BS5, while giving a heavy punch in CC, they are-though not cheap, very strong.
As for the "not helldrake" remark about their HS variant, they have the option for AP3 torrent flamers that always wound on 2, and if you survive your T drops. I'd say the drake is in the dust hrer firepower-wise. they only downside is that its not mobile. they are expensive, but armed like crazy, and with PE and BS5, pretty much every shot hits with the "regular" weapons, making even the humble vulkite rather nasty.

You got me on the land raiders, I give you that. can't have them if you want the automata. but they are for the thallax, and the reductur got more options for them.

The HQ?
Turn your machine against you? once in 216 casting, about as unlikely as it comes, and given the fact they lose all chance of being near controllers when they do, its not even a risk once they are in the enemy lines.
I said "equals", not "identical", and you hardly got the maximum they can get to there. WS4/BS5/S4/T6/W3/I3/A2/LD10 (plus an additional attack for pistol+power weapon, and two power fist attacks on top of it), with IWND, MTC, hardened armor, wrecher and tank hunter that is packing a power weapon of choice, a flamer, an inferno pistol, melta bombs and possibly a "special weapon", 3+ invul and interceptor, is more then what most 40k chapter masters can tell they have going for them. they dont have acsess to 2+ armor, but they are armed to the teeth demi-psykers who are hard to kill.



Admech are nasty. real nasty.
And the reason that it works, is that 30k is different then 40k. the "in-game meta" is different. the mere question of what exists and what does not is different.
When you mix the two, you get really akward situations.
The fact nids beat a legion means nothing, because its entirely within reason that the legion against the nids is a fair matchup, while other random combinations cause unplayable games.
Cant you honestly predict if the entire 30k bag of lists are working properly when pitted against 40k lists without it becomng one sided one way or another?
The two were never intended to be played with each other, and both GW and FW said so. the entire 30k balance was made anew, completely ignoring all that is 40k.
Mixing the two, is for a fun casual game with your friends over beer and pretzels at best.

They may be cheap, but they can be tied up easily due to their lower skills in combat, they are mostly shooting mecha.

They are only slightly more durable, as autocannon spam usually takes it down, or most AP4 weaponry That 4+ Usually doesn't do them much favors.

The problem with Myrmidons is getting there. Nobody fears FootSlogging Terminators, why would they fear something with a max range of 24" that's even more expensive than those? Short of storm-ravening them of course.

As for the not heldrake, it seems like you don't understand that it's not just a good weapon that provides their issue. It's their mobility, only able to be snapshotted, AV12 5+ daemon rules with turret torrent. An infantry unit that can only move 6" and fire torrent isn't even close.

The fact nids beat a legion means nothing, because its entirely within reason that the legion against the nids is a fair matchup, while other random combinations cause unplayable games.
Cant you honestly predict if the entire 30k bag of lists are working properly when pitted against 40k lists without it becomng one sided one way or another?

So you really don't mind Tau or Eldar doing the very same thing in 40k?

I've seen these lists deal with more then just nids, some match ups are good, some match ups are horrible. Is venomspam going to be fun for a Tyranid player?

I'm realy fond of the mechanicum stuff but judging from this it's not a very good idea to invest to heavily in them since no one in my groups plays 30k. I'd like to play with them but since I'm already labeled as our group's competitive player after having had a go with tau I'd prefer to play a some battle where I don't always win so could you chaps perhaps give some advice on how to eaven the balance a little and make the battles somewhat more even?

They are fine, they have alot of issues with mobility aside from Thallax, and I've seen those gunned down against most AP4 weapons.

I played my Reductor army against Necrons and got slaughtered, only just pulling off a win because my Magos managed to sweep his Overlord and one of his Immortal units.

Not a cheesy wraithwing or flying circus Necron list. A 1000 points with Tomb Blades Necron list. Gauss Blasters make mincemeat out of Thallaxii.