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Makes Possessed troops! Lol, poor CSM...

I've learned not to hold my breath with csm rumors. Possessed as troops sounds about on par with chosen as troops so its not unlikely. More so than lack luster rules for the possessed, the codex suffers from having just has too many PA units that need/want to get in close combat.

Which is quite cool for a Word Bearers themed list.

Point for point, the Possessed are a "weak" unit, to put it gently. But if you really like playing with possessed: BLAMMO! Scoring units!

I'd rather they had done Codex: Red Corsairs, but such is life...

I'll be happy if, along with Possessed as troops, they allow Land Raiders to be DTs. I'm not holding my breath on that rumor but if it is true, it'll actually be a huge boost to the army in my opinion.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Which is quite cool for a Word Bearers themed list.

Word Bearers want Daemons as troops.

Alpha Legion wants infiltrating Chas Space Marines as troops.

The list goes on.

However, Possessed as troops is like an army on crack.

Possessed as troops aside, I'm very curious to see if there are other special rules, what the warlord traits are, and what the relics do. If those 3 things are decent, possessed as troops could be overlooked.

 kronk wrote:
Point for point, the Possessed are a "weak" unit, to put it gently. But if you really like playing with possessed: BLAMMO! Scoring units!

I'd rather they had done Codex: Red Corsairs, but such is life...

Forgeworld list Tyrants Legion, you're welcome.

As for the CS Supplement, I'd love to see more changes than just Posessed as troops, Warlord traits and 1-2 relics. Shake the force org chart up good and proper.

That would be Tyrant's legion, which is Huron before his fall to Chaos. Afterwards, his Red Corsairs are much different.

So, nope. That doesn't help. Thanks anyway!

 kronk wrote:
That would be Tyrant's legion, which is Huron before his fall to Chaos. Afterwards, his Red Corsairs are much different.

So, nope. That doesn't help. Thanks anyway!

Lets see.... Elites:

Renegade Marauders, Corpse Takers, Legion Retaliators.

Reads like renegades to me, good sir.

 Kosake wrote:

 kronk wrote:
That would be Tyrant's legion, which is Huron before his fall to Chaos. Afterwards, his Red Corsairs are much different.

So, nope. That doesn't help. Thanks anyway!

Lets see.... Elites:

Renegade Marauders, Corpse Takers, Legion Retaliators.

Reads like renegades to me, good sir.

The first being a Mercenary group they hired, the second an apothecary-servitor group, and the third as assault squad with a fancy name.

Considering we have Sanguinary (To cause much bloodshed) priests, Death Company... I mean Space Marines have names like Blood angels and all.

As much as I love Chaos having new toys.


I WANT MY BLOODY LEGION CODEX.

There is nothing wrong with Possessed, especially if they can get them for cheaper than the CSM codex. But they are a close combat unit and there is nothing in the codex which allows them to get close to the enemy (except Land Raiders).

There's everything wrong with posesed. Worst unit in the codex.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
There's everything wrong with posesed. Worst unit in the codex.

Hardly.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
There's everything wrong with posesed. Worst unit in the codex.

I'd rank them above Mutilators (They have more bodies for cheaper) and Khorne Bezerkers (Hit harder). There are plenty of other things in the codex which scream "I'm too over-costed for what I do!" Possessed might be a point or two more expensive than they should be, but they are not a bad unit.


P.S Listen to Ailaros, he is often right on these things.

 Ailaros wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
There's everything wrong with posesed. Worst unit in the codex.

Hardly.

But that article effectively concludes that:
- They are similar performance to Berzerkers (Except never Scoring) which is a unit similarly maligned as a poor purchase.
- Goes straight onto the melee damage while neatly avoiding the challenge of actually getting there.
- Presents utterly bizarre arguments to equate the Possessed with Cult units.

Shred is not the same as T5 by any stretch of the imagination, especially when Plague Marines are rerolling wounds from Poison. AP3 Blastmasters are not the same as AP3 melee. Matching Thousand Sons is not an achievement by any stretch of the imagination.

I appreciate his attempts to make them desirable but it's a bad unit with minimal application and minimal reward for the effort. While I'm sure every CSM player is sick of the advice, there is a reason that most people would start an army with Plague Marines, Heldrakes and Obliterators. Namely that they work, they work from range and without delivery requirements, and do so with significant amounts of dangerous output.

 welshhoppo wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
There's everything wrong with posesed. Worst unit in the codex.

I'd rank them above Mutilators (They have more bodies for cheaper) and Khorne Bezerkers (Hit harder). There are plenty of other things in the codex which scream "I'm too over-costed for what I do!" Possessed might be a point or two more expensive than they should be, but they are not a bad unit.


P.S Listen to Ailaros, he is often right on these things.

Only those that actually think he is right, plenty disagree with him on many things.

Mozzamanx wrote:- They are similar performance to Berzerkers (Except never Scoring) which is a unit similarly maligned as a poor purchase.

Ad populum.

Plus, if possessed scored, well...

Mozzamanx wrote:-- Goes straight onto the melee damage while neatly avoiding the challenge of actually getting there.

As do ALL melee units. There is nothing unique about possessed here.

Mozzamanx wrote:-- Presents utterly bizarre arguments to equate the Possessed with Cult units.

I'm sorry it doesn't make sense to you. I don't know how I could explain it more clearly.

Mozzamanx wrote:-Shred is not the same as T5 by any stretch of the imagination, especially when Plague Marines are rerolling wounds from Poison. AP3 Blastmasters are not the same as AP3 melee. Matching Thousand Sons is not an achievement by any stretch of the imagination.

Possessed can be T5, just like plague marines. They also get an invul save, so they're more durable. Both blastmasters and lightning claws are Ap3 weapons that ignore cover saves - the only real difference is the range of the weapon. And agreeing that they're the same as 1ksons but disregarding this because you don't like 1ksons throws you straight into the teeth of another fallacy.

They are not more durable. Plague Marines have FNP, Stealth at short ranges, and are cheaper for the package. The one-and-only case when Possessed are more durable is when both Instant Death and AP<3 are in play. In every other case the Plagues go further.
'The only real difference is the range' is one hell of a brush to put over the argument. Namely, 48" of range coupled with no risk of Overwatch or getting your attacks in second, plus the obvious point of not facing retaliatory attacks.
And they are not the same as Thousand Sons because despite all of their flaws, Sons still manage to be cheaper, have a thicker Invulnerable, and deal their damage from ranged.


Do not presume that your arguments are too complex to understand because I normally like your points and would like to play a Codex where all units are created equal. But I firmly believe that this is not the right book for that and you come across as a condescending player so fixated on making your turd-of-a-unit sparkle that you assume the problem lies with other people not appreciating it, rather than the unit being inherently flawed.

They are not the best way to deliver AP3-Ignoring-Cover in the Codex. Heldrakes and Noise Marines are.
They are not the best way to deliver AP3 from the Elites slot, Chosen, Noise Marines or Thousand Sons are.
They are not the best way to deliver AP3 to melee at speed, Warp Talons are.
They are not the best way to get AP3 melee from the Elites slot, Terminators are.

They are not the best GEQ-slaughterers available, that goes to Spawn and Fauxzerkers.
They are not the best MEQ-slaughters available, that goes to Terminators or Warp Talons.
They excel at nothing. The only time they become the most-efficient option is when you get the right roll, meaning you got lucky on a D3 roll.

The article smacks of "When you get the right melee roll and deliver them across the table unscathed, they kinda match the Cult units at doing jobs depending on what you got!".
Except you don't know which Cult you are impersonating until after you've chosen your target and send AP3 against Guardsmen, or Shredders into a Grey Knight unit. And that's ignoring the massive problem that lies with all melee units, namely reaching melee. It doesn't make the situation any easier just because every other melee unit is also crap, it simply highlights the inferiority of Possessed alongside the alternative shooty options.

Scoring helps, but it does not in any way make the unit close to functional. Assuming that they will get the right rolls and arrive unscathed is a fools approach to evaluating the unit.
I know it sucks to hear but just take another Heldrake, and if you can't, then take Terminators or Plagues.

Mozzamanx wrote:They are not the best way

Your whole post assumes that possessed aren't worth taking unless they're the best at something. If you reject this requirement, as I do, then nothing in that whole wall of text really matters.

They need a reason to justify taking them because a player is limited in what he can take and a unit needs to excel at something to deserve points allocated to it.

They can either be the best in their field, or they can be a generalist unit to plug holes on the fly. But they do not meet either of these criteria.

You might impersonate a Cult unit at just the right opportunity, but then why didn't you just use the Cult unit you needed? If you army were lacking brawlers, or AP3-melee, or guys with Fleet, you have better alternatives available even before realising that your field is dependent on getting the right roll of a D3.
If you wanted a generalist gap-filler you also have better options available. Terminators will cost you a tiny bit more for twice the armour, a guaranteed weapon, ranged potential and trade Fleet for Deep Strike. Chosen will dish out similar levels of melee pain from more attacks and with special weapons mixed in, except once again they can work fro range, they can tackle units in cover and they can even Score with the Legion.

Possessed are not a good unit at any task, nor are they a good generalist. They sometimes excel if you get lucky after you've already sent them in. They do not have a place in the army and whatever niche you try to fit them into, there is another unit ready and able to fill it better. If you want a generalist unit, you can take something that isn't reliant on rolling the right number at the right time while also contributing with shooting attacks and the ability to assault into cover.

Mozzamanx wrote:
They need a reason to justify taking them because a player is limited in what he can take and a unit needs to excel at something to deserve points allocated to it.

They can either be the best in their field, or they can be a generalist unit to plug holes on the fly. But they do not meet either of these criteria.

You might impersonate a Cult unit at just the right opportunity, but then why didn't you just use the Cult unit you needed? If you army were lacking brawlers, or AP3-melee, or guys with Fleet, you have better alternatives available even before realising that your field is dependent on getting the right roll of a D3.
If you wanted a generalist gap-filler you also have better options available. Terminators will cost you a tiny bit more for twice the armour, a guaranteed weapon, ranged potential and trade Fleet for Deep Strike. Chosen will dish out similar levels of melee pain from more attacks and withdraw special weapons mixed in, except once again they can work fro range, they can tackle units in cover and they can even Score with the Legion.

Possessed are not a good unit at any task, nor are they a good generalist. They sometimes excel if you get lucky after you've already sent them in. They do not have a place in the army and whatever niche you try to fit them into, there is another unit ready and able to fill it better. If you want a generalist unit, you can take something that isn't reliant on rolling the right number at the right time while also contributing with shooting attacks and the ability to assault into cover.

So what are tactical marines "best" at?
Why take storm bolter when meltas and flamers are "better"?
Rhinos? Bah what use are those right?

ail's point is no one should spam them but if you are looking for a fast jack of all trades assault unit they are pretty damn scary.

If you put them on a table you are telling us the opponent will ignore them because "heldrake". This is so blatently net list group think it is entertaining.

 sfshilo wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
They need a reason to justify taking them because a player is limited in what he can take and a unit needs to excel at something to deserve points allocated to it.

They can either be the best in their field, or they can be a generalist unit to plug holes on the fly. But they do not meet either of these criteria.

You might impersonate a Cult unit at just the right opportunity, but then why didn't you just use the Cult unit you needed? If you army were lacking brawlers, or AP3-melee, or guys with Fleet, you have better alternatives available even before realising that your field is dependent on getting the right roll of a D3.
If you wanted a generalist gap-filler you also have better options available. Terminators will cost you a tiny bit more for twice the armour, a guaranteed weapon, ranged potential and trade Fleet for Deep Strike. Chosen will dish out similar levels of melee pain from more attacks and withdraw special weapons mixed in, except once again they can work fro range, they can tackle units in cover and they can even Score with the Legion.

Possessed are not a good unit at any task, nor are they a good generalist. They sometimes excel if you get lucky after you've already sent them in. They do not have a place in the army and whatever niche you try to fit them into, there is another unit ready and able to fill it better. If you want a generalist unit, you can take something that isn't reliant on rolling the right number at the right time while also contributing with shooting attacks and the ability to assault into cover.

So what are tactical marines "best" at?
Why take storm bolter when meltas and flamers are "better"?
Rhinos? Bah what use are those right?

ail's point is no one should spam them but if you are looking for a fast jack of all trades assault unit they are pretty damn scary.

If you put them on a table you are telling us the opponent will ignore them because "heldrake". This is so blatently net list group think it is entertaining.

Scoring
Of course, ever see sisters of battle take storm bolters instead of them?
To get you closer and to avoid turn one unit death.

Also they aren't a fast jack of all trades, if you want that take Chaos Spawn.

Also no, they aren't that scary, as a CSM player I'd sooner fear something that can make it to my lines that's a bit more effective, like a juggerlord and chaos spawn entourage.

Mozzamanx wrote:They can either be the best in their field, or they can be a generalist unit to plug holes on the fly. But they do not meet either of these criteria.

Once again, you're missing my entire point.

Let me summarize:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:Possessed are the worst unit in the codex

Ailaros wrote:No they're not, they have their uses.

Mozzamanx wrote:They're not the best unit in the codex, your argument is invalid

My point isn't that they're the best at anything. My point is that they're not the worst at everything.

A unit can be both not the best and also not the worst at the same time. Just as a unit can be both not the best and also worth taking at the same time.

Possessed, like LotD, dont sell well. Solution? Create a money grab to sell them to the sheep who have more money than brains. The sheep support these idiotic moves with their wallet, and thus the cycle continues.

 Kosake wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Point for point, the Possessed are a "weak" unit, to put it gently. But if you really like playing with possessed: BLAMMO! Scoring units!

I'd rather they had done Codex: Red Corsairs, but such is life...

Forgeworld list Tyrants Legion, you're welcome.

As for the CS Supplement, I'd love to see more changes than just Posessed as troops, Warlord traits and 1-2 relics. Shake the force org chart up good and proper.

But that's not Red Corsairs. Tyrant's Legion is BB with SM and IG. They don't really get any chaos details, can't ally with daemons, etc. Along with that, FW even states to use the SM codex as reference. Not CSM. (Just to be fair)

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Possessed, like LotD, dont sell well. Solution? Create a money grab to sell them to the sheep who have more money than brains. The sheep support these idiotic moves with their wallet, and thus the cycle continues.

Wait, you mean after so many $50 2 pages of rules 'codexes' people still buy this gak?

 Dakkamite wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Possessed, like LotD, dont sell well. Solution? Create a money grab to sell them to the sheep who have more money than brains. The sheep support these idiotic moves with their wallet, and thus the cycle continues.

Wait, you mean after so many $50 2 pages of rules 'codexes' people still buy this gak?

The codex is very expensive when compared with a full codex (of SM or whatnot).

A new dataslate would have been sufficient.

I actually like my possessed. Rarely use them though...

Best for going up against DEldar Grotesques or other things that need decent Strength and don't do AP3.

And for the record.... Warp Talons are the worst unit in the game.

Termies are far better imho.

never seen possessed used by anyone . CSM armies around here are csm free , not counting lords or wizards and maybe bikers.

But from what I heared the relics are awesome . Cheap divination upgrade , a cheap +2sv IWND armor , EW upgrades.

A t6 nurgle lord on a bike with a +4inv +2sv IWND is going to be just as bad as the chapter master with t5 +3 inv +2sv and IWND.