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Just a quick one!
Reading the rules in Codex: DA a sergeant in a tactical squad can replace ONE weapon with one from the melee weapons list, in this case a lightning claw! Can I also swap his other weapon for another lightning claw?

Swapping bolt pistol and chainsaw for 2 lightning claws?

Thanks in advance!!

Don't have the codex in front of me, but isn't there a rule that says they may swap the bolt pistol for a chains word at no cost, then you could swap the second chainsword for a second lightning claw.

Then you would have replaced TWO weapons, not one.

 belial wrote:
Just a quick one!
Reading the rules in Codex: DA a sergeant in a tactical squad can replace ONE weapon with one from the melee weapons list, in this case a lightning claw! Can I also swap his other weapon for another lightning claw?

Swapping bolt pistol and chainsaw for 2 lightning claws?

Thanks in advance!!

Maybe. Two popular interpretations of that sentence.

1) You may only ever replace a single weapon. It does not matter if you have two or more of the kind of weapon being replaced the sentence puts a limit on the total number of weapons that can be replaced this way.

2) You may replace any of the appropriate weapons you have with something else because the sentence establishes a ratio or exchange rate and does not put an limit on the total number of weapons that can be replaced.

Technically speaking, the 2nd interpretation is grammatically correct but because of the fluid nature of the English language the 1st interpretation is also perfectly acceptable and GW has never been know to be sticklers for perfect grammar. Until we get some sort of FAQ to explain their intent know one can know for sure which is supposed to be correct. I sight the lighting claw as a perfect example of the intent being to let you replace more than one weapon. The dual lighting claw load out is an icon staple of 40k.

My play group was initially divided on the subject and chose to go with option 2 because it makes thinks potentially that much cooler. You'll need to have a similar discussion with your regular opponents.

 belial wrote:
Just a quick one!
Reading the rules in Codex: DA a sergeant in a tactical squad can replace ONE weapon with one from the melee weapons list, in this case a lightning claw! Can I also swap his other weapon for another lightning claw?

Swapping bolt pistol and chainsaw for 2 lightning claws?

Thanks in advance!!

Where does it say this, exactly? I'm looking at mine and I see "The Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons sections of the wargear list."
Of course, then I read the wargear list and it says "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:". I read that to mean you may replace any one weapon for any one weapon (as long as you have weapons to replace, with no limit) as there is no emphasis on the one being "only" one. And it also doesn't specify that the weapon being used for the swap must be melee or ranged (unlike the ranged weapons wargear list that specifies bolt pistol and/or ccw <- Which lends to the interpretation (and/or) that you can replace 2 weapons since you can do so with the ranged list)

Rorschach, the argument is as follows:

You trade a bolt pistol for a lightning claw. You trade a chainsword for a power fist.

Did you trade 1 weapon for 1 melee weapon, or did you trade 2 for 2?

 Happyjew wrote:
Rorschach, the argument is as follows:

You trade a bolt pistol for a lightning claw. You trade a chainsword for a power fist.

Did you trade 1 weapon for 1 melee weapon, or did you trade 2 for 2?

I understand the argument, I just see it being able to go either way and without clarification from GW there is no way to know for sure.

You traded 1 weapon for 1 melee weapon. Then you traded 1 weapon for one melee weapon (as it does not state "only" one).
Or
You traded 2 weapons for 2 melee weapons, therefore you are over the (implied) "one" limit.

I would allow an opponent to go either way on the ruling personally.

Standard Sarg/vet sarg has bolgun and bolt pistol. You would replace the bolter with a lightning claw and replace the bolt pistol with another lightning claw. This would give you 2 CCW weapon. While you can do this you might (as another member posted) go for a LC and PF combo and not have a gun at all. Use the claw on soft squishy target and PF the harder ones.

 belial wrote:
Just a quick one!
Reading the rules in Codex: DA a sergeant in a tactical squad can replace ONE weapon with one from the melee weapons list, in this case a lightning claw! Can I also swap his other weapon for another lightning claw?

Swapping bolt pistol and chainsaw for 2 lightning claws?

Thanks in advance!!

umm...what? p.97 of the DA codex reads: "The Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons sections of the wargear list."


The Wargear melee section reads: "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following"

It doesnt read "A model can only replace one weapon with one of the following"

If it did, and you replaced one of his default weapons with one from the melee list, you wouldnt be able to replace his other from the ranged list because you'd have already exceeded the limit of replacing one weapon. Unless you are keen to point out that the "one" limitation only applies to the melee weapon section.

But youre right...it does sound confusing. Still, I think that since he has two weapons (boltpistol and bolter) he can replace each of them with one from the list.

Of course this does leave a sour aftertaste in the mouth because you then ask yourself why they used a different wording in the ranged weapon section.

"A model can replace his bolt pistol and/ or close combat weapon with one of the following"

The above sentence can be broken down into:

"1) A model can replace his bolt pistol and close combat weapon with one of the following

"2) A model can replace his bolt pistol or close combat weapon with one of the following"

Both sentences have 2 interpretations:

1) Interpretation I: A model can replace his bolt pistol AND close combat weapon with one of the following, i.e. you will lose both weapons if you take one from the list below. This interpretation is stupid and makes zero sense.

Interpretation II: A model can replace his bolt pistol with one of the following AND his close combat weapon with one of the following, i.e. can swap both weapons out for weapons from the list, but he has to swap out both if he chooses to undergo a swap. This interpretation makes sense, but it still doesnt allow you to only swap ONE weapon if you want to. This is why we need the "OR" part:


2) Interpretation I: A model can replace his bolt pistol OR close combat weapon with one of the following, i.e. you have to choose and can only replace one default weapon from one of the list below.


Now, 2) combined with 1) Interpretation II means you can swap both for two different ones, or one for another one.

I would personally only allow one swap of one weapon, not sure what they intended with this...

The way it's worded in this is the exact way it's worded for the relics in both DA books and C:SM books. However, the C:SM book specifies the sarg can replace his bolter with a chainsword, then "a model can replace his bolt pistol and/or melee weapon with one of the following:". This allows the C:SM sarg to go LC/PF, but not the DA one (using the reading of one relic per model).

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I would personally only allow one swap of one weapon, not sure what they intended with this...

No I'm sorry but that interpretation is utterly slowed because it would also disallow a Company Master, Interrogator Chaplain, Chaplain or Librarian from wielding a LC and PF, dual Thunderhammers, dual powerfists, dual LCs, TH/PF, TH/LC, or any of the various other combinations involving a ranged weapon other than the boltpistol they come with.


P.S: One thing I noticed is that the Company Master or a Veteran can *take* a Stormshield, not replace one of his default weapons with it. Would then a Company Master or Veteran with e.g. Stormshield, Thunderhammer and Stormbolter be a legal build?

 Happyjew wrote:
You trade a bolt pistol for a lightning claw. You trade a chainsword for a power fist.

Did you trade 1 weapon for 1 melee weapon, or did you trade 2 for 2?

Technically this is a one-weapon-trade made twice.
Trading pistol for claw (one weapon for another)
Next trading the chainsword for the fist or a claw (again one weapon swap).

A bit like filling a 50-litres tub with a 10-litres bucket...
...

Two-for-two would be "I relinquish both of the sarge's weapons to equip him with a pair of claws". (Which, btw, I would find perfectly reasonable)

...

Meaning, with that, that sometimes we could apply a bit of common sense in rule reading: a brother sergeant has the opportunity to pick his two weapons from the arsenal, instead of being assigned standard equipment.